Looks like an plain jane '88 Esprit Turbo to me. Has the '88 only (U.S.) rear wheels, which only work with the earlier inboard brakes and Citroen trans, '88 mirrors and an '89 1/2 and up SE front end. SO what is that Lotus, actually? All Stevens' Esprits are called X-180s. Yours doesn't look like an X-180R. But it does look nice. I have an '89 Esprit so I know what they look like...
Good eye...
This Esprit actually started out as an 88 and has all four 88 wheels, not just the rear. The front and rear bumpers, side skirts and wing was replaced with a 1991 X180R with a toasted motor. The only pieces I didn't get were the two small front fender wings. I would have liked to get those as well but the PO didn't have them.
The 89 1/2 is very similar to the 91s but the most significant difference is on the rear end of the car with the shape and design of the rear kick lip of the trunk and the way it mounts up the the rear X180R wing. Not jus the fact that you wing is six inches shorter on the car then mine or that the wing mounts on your decklid rather than the rear kick lip.
If you look at your wing fron the side, it acutally angles the opposite direction and sits a bit toward making "lift" rather than downforce. The angle on the X180R wing and mounts is much more agressive in a defining downforce design.
But... basically everything else stayed the same with body trim from the first "r" through the final 60th production model and the 20 track versions. Except the winglets from the front feders of course
I have a magazine article from the UK that has a cover story of the donor "r" that my parts came off off. Raced in the British Super Car Touring Series in 1991/92. Lots of cool pictures of it and even a good pic of the license plate that was on the bumper of my parts when I bought them
Fun huh?
DKOV - DMS
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11:19 AM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
So far, in order to convice the fabrication company to warrant the time, energy and costs to work with us on this project, we had provide them with a picture of the most attractive and largest demographic.
SBCs while cool, are not that demographic.
We painted a picture of all the applications that the new tranny would impact... from Fieros, to Grand Prix, to Lumina, to Montys, etc. The sheer numbes of these cars is why we are actually getting some movement.
In thinking of the SBC application, the best best would be to stick with the adapter plates that seem to be working so well now. At least for now. Perhaps in the future when the relationship is more established and we've actually done what we say we can do... perhaps then we can apprach them for a custom application such as an SBC.
Sorry... that's just the way it has to work for now.
DKOV - DMS
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11:39 AM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
Originally posted by Razor_Wing: So the 6-speed WILL be able to bolt up to the 3.4L DOHC and use the fiero man. linkage? or will I need to put in a diffrent linkage?
The concept of the design is to be easily installed in any GM vehicle with a like bolt pattern... from the stock Fiero 2.8 to the newer 3.8 SC motors.
Yes, it will bolt up to a 3.4L DOHC. I has to... I have one too
The clutch mechanism is hydraulic but will, if all goes well, connect to very stock looking levers for use with your stock shift cables.
However... among the years of all the cars we are point at for adaption, there are a multitude of cabling options. The 3.4 DOHCs 284 for instance is a "pull type" clutch fork as opposed to the 282s push type. Consequently, the shift linkage mounts at diffent angles and works in different ways. Same with an Izuzu equipped Fiero versus a Getrag equipped Fiero... linkage is on the opposite side.
These things have to be taken into cosideration and we have to build into the design either an easily changable shift linkage lever system or build the unit to accept the widest array of shift setups.
Don't misunderstand... we are DEVELOPING these trannies... not IN PRODUCTION. There are still lots of little details to be worked out.
Yes, they exist and yes the gearing systems are all worked out. Are they ready for distribution... No way
Good question though.
DKOV - DMS
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11:57 AM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
Are you using gears and synchros from something else (T56?) because I wouldn't think you could POSSIBLY supply it for that kind of price and cut your own gears. BTW, I get 282's for $80 each from the local U-Pull-It
$80 282s would be nice... Can't ever find them on this side of the woods. New ones are the point of reference though
The gearing/sychros are a new design that is the specialy of the company working with us on developement. We are not cutting new gears at all. Consequently, the gear ratios are just a tiny bit different but close. The final drive ratio will be very close as well. The 6 speeds are, of course, geared different.
The Sychros are dual coned in 1st and 2nd.
These are transaxles. No separate transfer case.
The $1800 price point is a target. One that we laid out when starting the process. Both parties are aware of it and are looking at it as a cap. We all understand that the final product price point will be a significant barrier to market if it is to high. Keep in mind that many of the Fieros that these will be going into, and many of the earlier w-body cars, aren't worth much more
DKOV - DMS
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12:07 PM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
Originally posted by 1985FieroGT: Make 2 different bellhousing versions that can be easily unbloted, one for v6's, and then the one for the small block's, and 4.3.
Great idea... but... we are talking about a transaxle, rather than a straight transmission. If it were a transmission, that is a very high probability. With a transaxle, that is a bit more difficult to accomplish.
DKOV - DMS
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12:09 PM
HOS Member
Posts: 80 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Registered: Aug 2002
There must be a God, because my prayers are being answered. I've been after a 6 speed since I bought my GT and was just about to sell it because I couldn't find a donor so you definitely have a customer here. What will be the tolerances for hp/torque that the transaxle can handle safely? What will the gear ratios be and will a limited slip differential for 282 bolt to it?
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04:45 PM
May 16th, 2003
iluvmacs Member
Posts: 324 From: Monroeville, PA Registered: Feb 2002
A hearty "Thank You". I may never buy one of your new transmissions, the redesigned interior, or any of the other wonderful stuff your company is developing/making/producing but I do wish you all the best and want to say "thanks". Why?
1) You are working to develop, produce and sell products that most of us have wanted for a long time. 2) your posts are calm, helpful, civil and respectful to all.
The two things together tell me that DKOV Motorsports is the kind of company that I WANT to deal with, and a company I will refer others to.
See? no 'good deed' or 'proper manners' ever goes unpunnished!"
DKOV, the website isn't online. I clicked shortly after you posted, then just a minute ago....
Yes... the website is under development over this weekend. Honestly, time hasn't really gone my way so far so I'm behind with it. Also, I havn't yet got all the products shot profesionlly for the pages either...
As I said before, I was not planning on releasing the website and the company for a bit more time, but a member brought it to the attention of you all, so I had to say something.
Please be patient with the site... We'll get there
Thanks for visiting though!
DKOV - DMS
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12:09 PM
May 19th, 2003
JEDI Member
Posts: 1003 From: Sunrise, Florida Registered: May 2002
Your developments have rekindled my thoughts of a V8 Fiero. I was hoping for around 450hp at the crank give or take a bit. Would your designs seriously be able to take the sort of pounding that that level of engine could dish out on a 1/4 mile track or autocross? You have to figure that people are going to drive them hard. Will we be able to have the unit cryo treated prior to assembly to increase strength? What type of warranty? Any mention of a Limited Slip Diff?
What ever happens with your development, I applaud your efforts. This is something the Fiero community has needed for quite some time.
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03:08 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Just what kind of diff ARE you using? Cutting a new one from scratch?
I guess I don't understand your question... The diff is not "new", it's just a standard differential built into the transaxle just as on the original. Not anything new or special. Not a limited slip either. I guess I don't get it
DKOV - DMS
[This message has been edited by DKOV (edited 05-20-2003).]
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12:10 AM
87FieroGTx Member
Posts: 2630 From: Bath, New York, USA Registered: Jun 2001
Is the final ratio higher or lower than a 282? Is the first hihger or lower than a 282? I would like a little lower first and little higher final.
Will you supply a wire diagram. Not all people that want this tranny will know how to do the conversion. How will you stop the 4t65e's from flashing codes and posable limp home mode? Can you help the cusomers get the tranny in a car that was never ment to have a stick, and run without any bugs.
Will you offer axles or cv's/tripot's? I have heard stories about the tripot being to weak and breaking. Do you have any plans to supply a shifter or will you only do trannys?
How much longer will it be from bell housing to end plate. I dont want to have to cut the unit body/frame. The 5 speed is kind of close already.
Will it use off the shelf parts for a rebuild or will it be hard to find parts for it.
I have a 3.5 Intrigue and wish every time I drive it, that it had a 6 speed like the Nissan Maxima. And I have always wanted a 6 speed in my Fiero I want a 6 speed and am not trying to discurage you. I think most people will ask the the same questions.
Keep up the hard work, I know it aint easy. If it were GM would have put them in.
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01:22 AM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
The three final drive ratios available and under consideration are 3.55, 3.88 and 3.94 for the 5 speeds. 3.36 or 3.54 1st gears.
ECU issues are being considered and worked out for the auto-to-manual (ATM) buyers. The Fiero ECU is burnable, so I'm looking at custom eproms to provide a plausible solution. Currently, the target market is a straigh manual-to-manual (MTM) conversion.
The only wiring to the tranny now is the reverse indicator.
My personal feeling is that the ATM market has greater initial potential not just with the Fiero crowd but also with the W-body buyers. Especially the 3.4 and 3.8 owners. They are dying for a manual option. It's a matter of cash though...
Keep in mind, the goal is to make them inexpensive enough and easy enough to entice folks to buy these new rather than rebuild the old manuals. Then the cross-over market will be an easier market to support.
Along those lines, the cost will be greater for a ATM customer as our plans are to include a shifter/pedal solution as part of the kit. Perhaps that same solution as an upgrade to MTM customers.
We have plans for axles but that design and application evolves from a totally different source... wide track suspension conversions. The 284 tripots are a direct fit to the 282 axles and are stronger. We are using them currently and, odds are, we will be integrating those into the new transmissions on a regular basis.
The exact specs of the new housings are still to be determined, however, the current school of thought puts the housings in the same basic configuration as the OEM transmission or within an inch or so. In all actuality, it will probably end up looking more like a 284 with a fixed half shaft and slightly different bellhousing shape, but relatively close to shape and size of a 282. The fixed half shaft is a bit stronger and takes care of another weak link in the system.
"Off the shelf parts" are not really a part of the design... It just depends on the shelf I guess.
They will come with full warranties but will be a depot warranty at first. Until there are more out there and we start getting general shop support. The manufacturer says they will also provide a list of certified techs in many of the top 100 markets. That will get nailed down more as we get closer to the final solution. In short, it won't be any harder to service than a current 282 or 284 Hopefully MUCH easier.
Very good questions!
DKOV - DMS
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02:06 AM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
I guess I don't understand your question... The diff is not "new", it's just a standard differential built into the transaxle just as on the original. Not anything new or special. Not a limited slip either. I guess I don't get it
DKOV - DMS
Does it have the same dimensions as/is it interchangeable with anything on the market today? Anything produced in higher volume? Or are you machining (casting?) a diff carrier specific to your transmission which will not be compatible with anything else on the market?
I think the ONLY way you're going to bring this thing to market economically is by using parts from other transmissions wherever possible. You haven't shown much interest in that so far. 20 years from now this transmission will be a white elephant kind of like the 284 or the 282 torsen diff.
How long do you think it will be before your first customer starts to want an LSD? Everyone on www.clubgp.com can't wait to get their hands on one. That's the market you're targeting, right?
I'm not bashing. I'm sanity checking.
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06:35 PM
May 21st, 2003
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
Does it have the same dimensions as/is it interchangeable with anything on the market today? Anything produced in higher volume? Or are you machining (casting?) a diff carrier specific to your transmission which will not be compatible with anything else on the market?
I think the ONLY way you're going to bring this thing to market economically is by using parts from other transmissions wherever possible. You haven't shown much interest in that so far. 20 years from now this transmission will be a white elephant kind of like the 284 or the 282 torsen diff.
How long do you think it will be before your first customer starts to want an LSD? Everyone on www.clubgp.com can't wait to get their hands on one. That's the market you're targeting, right?
I'm not bashing. I'm sanity checking.
The differential is based on a current Open diff design with different spine gears. There is indeed a Quiaf (based on Torsen) diff available.
That means there IS an LSD option availabe through QUAIF... Very good news!!!
My concept didn't intend to create from scratch a new diff or tranny but to adjust a certain and current product to fit my needs... thus the adjustments to the bellhousings.
If I were to use an adapter plate I'd solve that issue but still would need to insure proper drive alignment.
As I said before, it's mainly the bellhousing that is the application hangup. Everything else was done.
DKOV - DMS
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12:14 PM
May 22nd, 2003
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
We are now on the topic of volume commitments but have come to a very reasonable compromise and are nearing the end of the negotiation phase...
Looks like the best, most cost effective solution is to start with the HIGH HP 5 speeds as a direct replacement and use the volumes to offset the costs and justify the costs of the 6-speeds.
Provided the deal is signed next week, we could start distributing the new DMS 5-speed trannys as soon as 30 days.
Other good news...
YES, we have an LSD option available. I did not want to say anything until it was FOR SURE... and now it is. QUAIF LSD.
They will be available for both the 5 and 6 speed versions.
That's the latest. Have a happy and hopeful Holiday Weekend!
No price has been confirmed for the 5 or 6 speeds yet. $1800 is the target price for the HD 5 speed. The final price will boil down to the diffs and volumes.
I'll let you know as the time gets closer.
DKOV -
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12:29 PM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
How much for a 6 speed with LSD. Dose it have standard gears or can we get our owne ratio and will it cost alot more for different ratios?
Ratios will be fixed in one of three sets. We can do custom applications (even now) but the cost is astronomical. Maybe as volumes come up, out cost for these kinds of options will come down.
As for cost... no final number yet.
Stay tuned
DKOV -
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12:31 PM
PFF
System Bot
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
Where can we get shifters, cables, and brackets to fit?
About gear ratios, will we need to have a tranny shop tear it apart, or can gears be custom ordered?
The current plan of operation is to include bracketry on the tranny that will mate the stock Fiero cables to the tranny. It is based on 1988 5-speed cables and we highly recommend the OEM cables as opposed to aftermarket cables which seem to have a tendency to fail. The custom braketry will be included with the tranny.
We are also working on a custom shifter kit for use with the 6 speed tranny. It will be a Seven Gate shifter for 1st -> 6th and the 7th gate is reverse. If the structure of the new kit works out, we will offer the same design in a 5-speed shifter kit. Both will have a polished, slotted shifter gate.
We can order custom gears, again at a premium, but any tranny shop should be able to split the case and do the work if need be. Any shop worth going to anyway
The gear support is high so gears and rebuild kits will be readily available to liscenced repair locations.
DKOV -
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12:37 PM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
Im going to cry, I want one! I'd sell a organ or 2
6spd require frame notching? Which LSD does it use? Can we pick one up aftewards? How much more would it be?
thanks! James
The 5 and 6 speed will use QUAIF LSDs and yes, they can be added afterwards. The cost on the LSDs are consistant with the import tuner market. Check them out for similar pricing.
DKOV -
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12:39 PM
Patrick's Dad Member
Posts: 5154 From: Weymouth MA USA Registered: Feb 2000
No price has been confirmed for the 5 or 6 speeds yet. $1800 is the target price for the HD 5 speed. The final price will boil down to the diffs and volumes.
I'll let you know as the time gets closer.
DKOV -
So, the HD units will be 5 speed only? I was dreaming of an HD6....
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07:57 PM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
I have read that the diff bearings in the 282 and 284 are kind of a weak spot. When you look for one in a yard you should check the diff for play, see if you can move the diff in the case. If this is true will your tranny have the same type of bearings or are they more "beefed up"? I have also heard some say that the synkros for 2nd and third give out in the 284 and 282 and if this is true will yours be better? I dont just belive everything I read so I cant say if the 282 and 284 has these problems ( mine dont) but I am wanting to know just what makes your tranny "HD"
Thanks
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02:55 AM
Will-Martin Member
Posts: 1164 From: DFW, TX, USA Registered: Aug 2002
Um, so you are saying that a Northstar engine will bolt up to this thing as well DKOV? I have been told that the bolt pattern matches the 2.8, 3.4, 3800, etc.. If so, that finalizes my swap decision, they have another customer willing to part with $1800, and you have another set of demographics to pitch to the makers – Cadillac automobile owners who want a high performance stick shift... hehe… if there is such a thing. You may want to contact CHRFab as well and see what they think about all this. They may jump on the bandwagon. Best of luck and keep us informed ~ PLEASE!
--Will
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03:54 AM
DKOV Member
Posts: 1564 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Mar 2001
I have read that the diff bearings in the 282 and 284 are kind of a weak spot. When you look for one in a yard you should check the diff for play, see if you can move the diff in the case. If this is true will your tranny have the same type of bearings or are they more "beefed up"? I have also heard some say that the synkros for 2nd and third give out in the 284 and 282 and if this is true will yours be better? I dont just belive everything I read so I cant say if the 282 and 284 has these problems ( mine dont) but I am wanting to know just what makes your tranny "HD"
Thanks
First off, we are not using the 282/284 diffs. They are new as are the rest of the components in the tranny.
Second, I don't think that the 282/284 diff bearings are as weak as some folks say. I had a 284 that I ran behind a highly modified 3.4L TDC motor for 151,000 miles... the tranny had missing teeth in 3rd, conpletely flat synchros between 1st and 2nd and rapidly failing synchs between 2nd and 3rd... but the diff bearings were just fine!
What is heavy duty about them is the whole design... stronger case, stronger gears, stronger synchs, stronger shafts, stronger bearings, etc.
I can't wait to get a few of these in some of your hands to test out for me.
Can you integrate a pocket in the bellhousing webbing for a Northstar starter, and maybe pick up that last bolt or will that mess it up for the other engines?
Steve
Oh, Are those LSDs biased for mid engine rwd cars?
