These 1st few paragraphs are going to hard to write because I'm going to be discussing a subject that I know a lot about and I want it to be told in a way that is both fair and accurate. So please bear with me while I try to get thru these first few paragraphs. As you hear the story, you will realize why these first few paragraphs are so hard to get right.
This is a difficult post for me to get worded right. I want to offer you guys some facts here and tell you a true story that you would never believe if someone else told it to you. I want to tell it in a way that you don't think that I'm trying to be self serving. I've been working on Fieros for 16+ years now and I hate to say this but V-8 Fieros ARE my life, I really have no other serious interests. When you have spend the kind of time on this one subject as I have in the last 16 years you meet a lot of people, hear a lot of stories, and gather a lot of information that many others would consider worthless. Today I am about to start sharing with you more information about V-8 Fieros than you may ever have imagined existed.
Currently there is another thread on this Forum that asks about the HTD V-8 Engine conversion kits. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/019020.html I was participating in that thread and the questions of why certain things were done the way they were in the various V-8 kits came up. We talked about design & engineering developement and reasons why certain V-8 engine conversion kits shift the engine to the left in the car and and other technical questions.
At one point during that conversation I submitted that I could explain the apparent lack of common sense in the engineering of certain V-8 kits and others' in that thread expressed an interest in hearing just how a V-8 kit can be developed that had engineering problems.
That other thread has several people sitting on the edge of their seats ready to fling arrows at each other and I truely want this discussion to be about sharing some interesting information rather than become a flame war.
It will take several days and hours of typing for me to tell you this whole story. I swear that if this turns into a flame war, I will just keep all this to myself as I have kept it to myself for many years already.
Ok, now that you have gone and read the other thread, you should know the subject matter that was being discussed there.
Let's see if we can get this off to a smooth start.
From time to time, here on PFF and in other forums, the topic of the Zumalt V-8 engine conversion kits comes up. As part of those kinds of threads it always turns into a discussion copmparing my V-8 conversion kit to what has been known as the Zumwalt kit. Yes, I know, I'm mis-spelling the name Zumalt. I started doing that a long time ago and I did it on purpose. Wether is be Zumalt or Zumwalt we are all talking about the same thing. Many times in this thread I'll also call it the Z kit. You'll also notice that in this post and many others, I've always refered to the Zumwalt kit as "what has been known as the Zumwalt kit". When I have finished typing tonight you may want to consider re-naming that kit.
NOW... at this point it needs to be understood Right up front everyone needs to know that the HDT kit, the Fiero Plus kit, the Shelby kit the old Corson kit and a few others are direct and exact copies of what is known as the Zumalt kit. You don't have to take my word for it I can prove that to you later. In fact it also should be understood that I can prove everything I'm going to be telling you here.
In page 2 of the other thread I refer to above the question of the design of the Flywheel and clutch and the reason for the 2" move of the engine came up and I responded with a few statements that led to the developement of this thread.
If you haven't read that thread yet you should go read it now. Don't bother to read the flames in that thread, just read the facts and opinions that are expressed there.
I'm sitting here waiting for you to finish reading that right now. da da da da da de de de de....... ok Welcome Back.
The 1st part of this story I had heard 2nd hand about 12 years ago. I wrote it off because there was no easy way to confirm it. Then back on 7-14-97 I had the story confirmed in writing by 2 of the three people who were actually there.
So here we go....
To understand the elements of design that led to the moving the negine over in the engine compartment and that cause the clutch/flywheel problems touched on in the other thread it is necessary that I tell you the whole story about the last 15 years or so of the kit known as the Zumwalt kit.
To understand the design elements you need to how this kit came into being, you need to know the History.
About 15 years ago 3 people got together to put together a V-8 Fiero. They all lived in the Kansas City Area. Doug Jones was the guy who financed the project and made some payments on the donor car when Gary got behind. Gary Zumalt who owned (or was making payments on) a Red 1985 Fiero GT automatic car. & J.D.Michael who owned a company called Econo Race Cars and had a 30,000 sf work area, J.D. was the designer/builder.
You'll recall that earlier in this post I said that I had heard a story about the Z kit many years ago and couldn't confirm it. You'll also remember that I finally got confirmation in 1997. That mail came from Doug Jones and at that time he gave me permission to use his EMail when I saw fit.
To tell this story about the initial design of the Z kit accurately, I'm going to post one of his EMails in it's entirety. I'll let him tell this part of the story.....
Subject: Gary Zumult Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:53:17 -0500 From: Doug <doug@awiz.com> To: v8archie@v8archie.com CC: cd156@usa.net
Archie,
I just got a CC of and an Email Clif Daniel sent to you and your reply. My name is Doug Jones and I am the one who financed Zumult when he needed the money the most --- the bank was getting ready to repo the V8 fiero. I did'nt know Gary very well however JD and me are good freinds. I made the payments on the Fiero and also provided $500 here and a $1000 there when needed. I hauled the Fiero on my trailer to car show. For my efforts I was to get a "piece of the action". No, I never received a thing for my efforts. I own Independence Electronics Inc http:\\www.awiz.com and I am the one who re-calabrated the tach to work with 8cyls instead of 6. Yep, a lot people got screwed over that V8 Fiero kit. In particular the man that developed it...J. D. Michael. JD owns ECONO RACE CARS and had a 30000 sq ft building in the limestone mines here in Independence Mo. He furnished the space, tools, and the engineering expertise to make the V8 Fiero a reality. $3000 won't make or break me, but JD put uncounted hours and resources into that kit with the promise of fortunes to be made and got NOTHING in return. He could have been making money instead.
What happened?? In 1986 or 1987 JD was diagnosed with TB that he apparently caught in the 60's while serving in the Air Force in Vietnam. While JD was at the VA hospital getting treatment, Gary decided to go down to the shop and abscound with all the prints, drawings, patterns and the car. JD was too sick to do much about it. There were no written contracts that I know of. Everything was done on a handshake. Pretty shity thing to do to a friend, huh? Gary must have forgot about the Hot Rod Magazine article due out in October 1987! I'll explain that later.
JD is a well known and talented dragster chassis builder. Him and I have been freinds for years. Among many other things, JD made a pretty impressive tubular dragster chassis kit. He sold a few but lacked the financing to market it properly. The V8 Fiero kit was to be the golden goose-free advertising in Hot Rod Magazine etc. -- but Gary ate the goose rather then wait for the golden egg.
You may remember the Hot Rod Magazine article from October of 1987 promoting JD and Gary's V8 Fiero kit. Oh boy, the power of a national magazine!!! JD's phone number and address was in the article - Gary's was not. JD got STACKS and STACKS of mail from people begging to buy the kit!! The phone rang off the wall and, considering the circumstances, were a source of aggravation to JD. People even sent money to pay for mailing a catalogue. And we did'nt have a kit to sell them! Wish we had known of you at the time! The phone number is no longer any good but he still occasionaly gets an inquiry by mail. Of course Gary never got ONE of those leads! (JD also got some hot calls from customers looking for Gary.)
When one has stacks of inquiries in-hand it's pretty easy to get the money to fill the orders. A freind of mine, Roger Porter, saw the stacks of mail and offered to totally finance the project. We decided to buy a wrecked Fiero so we could get started re-creating the patterns. Unfortunatly JD's TB and the medicine he was taking was beginning to take the wind out of his sails. We decided it would be too much for him to take on the V8 fiero project at that time. We never pursued it again. A few years later JD moved the race car business from the large limestone mines to a workshop he built at his home in Raytown Mo.
I just called JD and read him this Email to confirm my recollection of the V8 Fiero fiasco. He approves of this Email. At this time he has no interest whatsoever in even talking about the V8 Fiero.
I thought you would like to get the real story from the principles involved. This comes from the "horses mouth". I guess you know which end of the horse Gary's version would come from.
Doug Jones Doug Jones, President Independence Electronics Inc 119 S Main Independence, Mo. 64050 USA Phone: 816-836-1094 Fax: 816-252-7309 Internet: http://www.awiz.com
Tomorrow, we'll talk about how that initial design of an Automatic only kit evolved into a stick shift kit that has as many engineering issues as we've seen discussed many times.
Archie
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12:46 AM
PFF
System Bot
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
This should be an intresting read, I've always wondered where the other kits came into being.
Archie, I think we're all intrested in the facts, just the bare facts. If we can all refrain from getting personally wraped up in it (heh, I feel like such a heel for asking to get wraped up in V8 Fieros I think we may all learn something here.
Keep the story coming!
Best! Ben.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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01:38 AM
Brandon86SE Member
Posts: 586 From: Calgary, AB, Canada Registered: Aug 2001
Wow, I can tell this is going to be an amazing thread, and one that I'm personally quite intersted in. I'd hate to see it turn into a flamewar, would there be anyway to set it up so only Archie could post to it? Make it into like a story book with daily, or whatever, updates? That'd be the way I'd like to see it go down, anyway. If not, then know that this thread has my entire support, as I would love to hear all the history of the V8 Fiero.
I know its only just beginning but I want to also thank Archie WAAYYYY in advance here. I am sure this will cover much of what the originator of the first post wanted to hear. As for the comment about flame wars its only going to turn into that if WE make it that so keep that in mind before/when you post. I'm on the edge of my seat Arch and its getting uncomfortable.....lol
This thread is about someone who didn't deserve any credit or recognition stealing the whole show. Archie is right the Z kit should be called the Dewey, Cheatem, And Howe kit.
------------------
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07:05 PM
GT GT 87 Member
Posts: 398 From: Palatine Il. USA Registered: Jan 2001
Please don't take offense by this but, I really want to keep this thread void of negative comments. I appreciate that you are reading this but & you are free to draw your own conclusions, but if this turns into any type of bashing, then I'm gonna quit writing the rest of the story. Although I feel utter contempt for Z and what he has done over the years, & I believe the current design to be flawed, I'm going to make the utmost effort to keep my personal views out of this thread.
Someone earlier mentioned that this thread was going to be about V-8 history, that is incorrect. This thread is about how the design of what is known as the Zumwalt kit got to where it is today. To understand that you have to know the history.
Yes, you'll learn some history about the Z kit but the history of my kit is in the Bio page on my web site at http://home.v8archie.com/about.htm
Watch for Chapter 2 later tonight.
Thank you for reading and let's keep it clean. I do want you to post because it's the only way I have to know that anyone is actually reading this.... but let's keep it clean.
Originally posted by Archie: Please don't take offense by this but, I really want to keep this thread void of negative comments. I appreciate that you are reading this but & you are free to draw your own conclusions, but if this turns into any type of bashing, then I'm gonna quit writing the rest of the story.
Thank you for reading and let's keep it clean. Archie
Very well said Archie. Let's stay focused here people.
Im really looking forward to hearing this, Btw archie read my post about harmonic balancer, i need an answer soon, and not too many people will know the answer.
thanks
matthew
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07:38 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Originally posted by sloth85GT: So Gary didn't copy Archies and they came up with their own design that had flaws that weren't worked out? Or did they copy it?
Good question, If you check my Bio, and you read the above letter from one of the guys who was involved in the origin of the kit known as the Zumwalt kit, you'll have to agree with me when I say that both kits were completely independantly designed. You'll also find that there are NO common parts between the 2 kits.
Originally posted by Archie: I do want you to post because it's the only way I have to know that anyone is actually reading this.... but let's keep it clean.
Archie
Don't you worry. If you keep writing we'll keep reading.
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10:42 PM
Sleeper Member
Posts: 726 From: Torrance, Ca Registered: Mar 2000
Originally posted by Archie: ...both kits were completely independantly designed. You'll also find that there are NO common parts between the 2 kits...
I have been reading everything I could find about V-8 Fieros for several years. I never even seriously considered the possibility that there was anything in common between these two kits. I've seen some really interesting stuff that Archie hasn't touched on yet, but I'm sure he will. Rock on, Archie!
------------------ Raydar
From the Department of Redundancy Department.
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11:28 PM
Cheever3000 Member
Posts: 12398 From: The Man from Tallahassee Registered: Aug 2001
Yesterday we talked about the early history of the kit known as the Zumwalt kit. I find it quite interesting that when JD Michael designed that kit he did it on an automatic car. While I built my 1st V-8 car as a stick shift. I think you'll find that to be a pretty important distinction as we move thru the developement of that kit.
The configuration of their V-8 at the time that Gary took off with it was that it was an automatic car and the engine/transmission assy. had been moved to the left in the car. Over the last few years I've talked with Gary's old partners several times via phone and EMail. During these conversations I had the occasion to discuss in detail the original configuration and I learned several things. JD had built the car as a prototype and he never intended it to be a final production design. He had wanted to modify several aspects of the original design to eliminate a few design "wrinkles" that had appeared during building & testing. At about the time that JD went into the Hospital they had been planning to re-build the original car to make it into a properly engineered final product. Before those changes could be made Gary took off with the whole project.
Now you'll recall that I said JD had moved the engine/transmission to the left in the car. I remember when that article came out in the magazine. I looked at those pictures real close and then I'd look at the V-8 car I was driving and it didn't take long to determine that the engine/trans. had been moved to the left in the car some 2". I hadn't moved mine to the left in the car & it took me a few hours to realize the reason that JD & I could do it in different ways and both still be right.
What!!!, did Archie just say that one of the design elements on the JD Michael kit had a design element that was done right????
Yeah, when each one of us was designing our kits independantly, neither one of us were thinking about the considerations of making the kit for another type of transmission.
Let me explain... JD did a kit for an automatic car. If you go out and take a look at the left end of the automatic transmission in the Fiero, you'll see that it has more than 2" it can move to the left in the car before it has a clearance problem with the left frame rail. Think about this for a minute, just stop and think. Put yourself in JD's shoes.... here you have a SBC bolted a Automatic transmission... you're trying to find a place to put it in the Fiero. The engine has the Chevy HBP & pulley on it & the W/P (WaterPump). The HBP, pulley & the W/P are hitting the right side frame rail heavy. Rather than cut the right side frame rail to clear the pulleys, let's move the engine to the left in the car a couple of inches and not have to trim either frame rail.
I hope everyone understands the story to this point because I'm going to ask you to remember the following statement because later it's going to quite important in the evolution of the axle, F/W & clutch problems that the kit now has. This is the line to remember "Rather than cut the right side frame rail to clear the pulleys, let's move the engine to the left in the car a couple of inches and not have to trim either frame rail."
On my Stick shift car, I was a lot like JD because I didn't want to cut the frame rail either. BUT, I started out with a stick shift 4 speed car. ....PAY attention here.... Go out and check your car & you'll find that the left end of the Fiero stick shift transmission is real close to the left side frame rail. I would have liked to use the original SBC pulleys and W/P drive setup on the front of the engine, but I knew that I'd have to notch the Right frame rail to clear it. And, as close as the transmission is to the left frame rail, I knew that if I moved the driveline to the left in the car I would end up notching the left side frame rail. You see, on a stick shift Fiero you either had to leave the eng/trans in the original location and notch the Right frame rail or you could move it over to the left and notch the Left side frame rail. My question about the Zumwalt Stick shift kit all these years has been "If you know that you have to notch ONE frame rail, WHY IN HE!! would you choose to move the driveline to the left in the car notching the left frame rail AND ADD THE EXPENSE OF MAKING CUSTOM LENGTH AXLES???"
I tackled the problem by developing a 3rd. choice. I designed a mount system and pulley system that would leave the engine in the stock location & drive the W/P WITHOUT CUTTING EITHER FRAME RAIL.
You see JD never had to make that decision because he had an automatic car and it was easy to move the engine over without frame modifications.
Ok, It's close to bedtime now.....
Now you know that when Gary took off with JD's design it was an automatic ..... how did it become a stick kit? Who did that engineering? Gary Zumwalt?
Don't bet on it.....
Tune in tomorrow.
Archie
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 03-07-2002).]
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12:03 AM
voyagerspe Member
Posts: 561 From: Binghamton NY USA Registered: Feb 2001
i was reading the first post, and was thinking mmmm did he really steal his designs and run off on his friends. And why is the kit flawed. The 2nd post really cleared things up.
Well, let's see, has everybody had time to go out in the driveway and take a look at their Automatic &/or Stick shift Fiero to see how far the tramsmission can be moved to the left before it hits the frame rail?
As you know by now, this is about how the kit known as the Zumwalt kit got from the reasonable design that JD Michael put together to where it is now.
You also know by now that the original automatic car that JD put together was intended as a prototype only. A few features of that kit were to be redesigned before JD (the engineer) was ready to mass produce kits for sale.
So that's where we take up tonight.
When Zumwalt took off with the car, drawings and plans, he took them to a machine shop and had several sets of parts made up. These parts were exact duplicates of the parts that JD had put on the prototype car. The automatic versions of these kits still have the same design to this very day.
Ok, so when Z started selling kits they were for automatic cars only and he started on his merry way. When JD had developed the original car he had Moser Engineering out of Portland, Indiana doing the custom axles and J.R. Headers had tooled up to make custom headers for him.
Remember now, we are trying to follow the developement of that design and what happened to get it to where it is today.
When Gary 1st. started making those kits he used the same sources. Both Moser and J.R. Headers had company policies back then where they would make and send parts to new customers by "COD CASH Only" and then after the First order they would sell "COD Company Check Ok". (you're gonna ask how I know this story, so hang on I'll tell you in a minute) (AND Yes,this story does have a LOT to do with the goal of this thread) Anyway Z ordered an initial order from both of these suppliers of several sets of parts. They shipped them "COD CASH Only" and he paid it. The second order from these suppliers was a very large order and they shipped the parts "COD Company Check Ok" & you guessed it the bill got paid with a very bad check.
Now, before I tell you what happened next in the developement of the "Z" V-8 kit, I have to tell you how I know the above story since I was not buying parts from either one of those suppliers. So this is a side story and don't forget where we left off. Ok, you'll find this funny in a way. A year or so after I began selling my V-8 kits I put a small ad in Popular Hot Rodding Magazine. About a month after the 1st ad had appeared, I got a certified letter from a court in Kansas City informing me that I was being sued for $18,000 by these 2 companies. When I read the suite it appeared that they thought I was part of the Zumwalt entity and that we had just changed the company name to dodge the bills. Evidently both companies had discovered that they both had been ripped off and they joined forces to find Mr. Z and their money. I had to travel over to K.C. and conference with the lawyers and take paperwork to convince them that they had the wrong guy.
Ok back to the original story.
Zumwalt seeking to avoid those suppliers had went "underground". While he was on the lam so to speak, a guy in Arizona named Randy Corson obtained one of the automatic Z kits. I remember Randy use to brag to people that he hadn't had his hands dirty in 20 years. He was not an engineer and in fact he wasn't involved in working on cars at all. Here is where JD's vision went to he11. Randy took the Z kit to a local machine shop and told them to make ?? number of copies of it, and he told them that while they were at it they should make some flywheels for a stick shift version too. They were a michine shop and not an automotive shop and they didn't even have a car to work on when deciding on a F/W design or anything. (the Corson part of this story was related by his wife to someone I cannot name right now at the 1989 Kit Car Run & Gun) So the flywheel for the stick version of what is known as the Zumwalt V-8 kit was actually designed by someone working in a machine shop and it was never tested in use until sometime after it was produced in quantity. Corson never built more than 3 V-8 cars himself, well he didn't build them, he had a local auto repair shop assemble them for him. So, in reality, that kit usues the same adapter plate for both the stick shift and the automatic versions & no one actually designed & tested the F/W to work on this V-8 swap. The Flywheel was just designed to fit within the envelope that the already existing parts provided. We'll look at the F/W, adapter plate and several other of these parts later in this thread. Ok, so at this point Corson has a direct copy of the automatic kit designed by JD Michael and a version of that kit with a stick shift flywheel made to fit within the confines of a bell-housing that originally had carried a thin flexplate. That's why the flywheel is so thin to this very day.
Ok, so after Corson had invested in a couple dozen sets of the stick shift version of the parts, he had a local shop assemble his 1st stick shift car for him. Remember on day 2 of this thread, I told you to remember a statement for future reference? That statement was "Rather than cut the right side frame rail to clear the pulleys, let's move the engine to the left in the car a couple of inches and not have to trim either frame rail." Well Randy never even thought of this statement until after he had a bunch of money invested in custom length axles for the never before assembled stick shift version of the kit. As he found out when assembling the first stick shift car, they had to cut the left side frame rail. Before this point, He had never even compared the size of the stick shift transmissions to the automatics. He ended up with a large iunventory of kits that in effect moved the engine to the left in the car to avoid right side frame rail cutting and ended up cutting the left side frame rail instead. If he would have done a little bit of research and engineering before manufacturing parts, he would have realized that since he was going to have to cut one frame rail anyway, why not cut the right side frame rail and save the expense of having to supply custom length axles with his kits.
So what does he do now? Does he go back and correct the problem and make it so that the customer doesn't have to pony up for custom length axles? No, that would be too much money invested and lost. Instead he started telling people a story that is still being told by his successors even today. He just told everyone that would listen that the stock Fiero axles would break with the power of a V-8 and the customer needed these axles because they were stronger than the stock axles.
So now you ask, how did Zumwalt get involved in this again.
Well at some point his creditors finally did catch up with him and made provisions to collect from his. Since he then had to pay off his old bill then why stay underground. Gary came back and, in the spirit of "turn about is fair play" the first thing he did was to make a copy of Corson's stick shift version of his (JD's) kit. Gary figured that Corson was a big shot high profile guy who got all kinds of print in the magazines. Surely Corson had properly engineered his stick shift version of the kit. Gary did the same thing Randy had done and made up a bunch of stick shift kits before he realized the difference between the stick shift and automatic transmissions.
And so it goes.
What ever happened to Gary Zumwalt? FWIH, A few years ago he got sued by several of his old customers for various reasons and he let it be known in the Internet, that he was no longer servicing, producing &/or selling parts to anyone. And that anyone who was still waiting on parts from him should look for them elsewhere.
So what happened to Randy Corson? Several years ago, 1994 I think, he ceased production of both body and V-8 kits. I heard a few years ago, which was several years after he had quit making them, that he had sold "rights" to his copy of the kit known as the Zumwalt kit to someone. At the time I remember hoping that whoever bought those rights didn't pay much for them as they were not his to sell & everybody and his brother had already copied that kit anyway.
Well I'm tired of typing tonight.
Tomorrow I'll show you some of the design elements that JD was going to correct on the original car and how those elements still exist today. We will also look at the compromises made by Corson and adopted by Zumwalt that still exist yet today.
I think we may all learn something here.
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This sounds interesting.
stuff that Archie hasn't touched on yet, but I'm sure he will. 
