I'm hoping to enter my Fiero in the Grassroots Motorsports $2003 Challenge. The catch is, I'm hoping to enter it with a N* behind me. Usually the engine itself could take up the entire budget, which is why I had some specific questions for the forum's N* gurus. I sent them PMs at first, but Will suggested I post the info for all to see...

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-----gielamonster's Original Message -----
Hey guys (Ben and Will, if you can't see eachothers names in the To: ). I've been on the board for a month or so, its obvious you two are the most active Northstar powered owners.

I've read through lots of your threads, although I haven't found a good price breakdown as of yet. Only that Will spent around $4000 total (including car) and Ben is way up into 5 digits (no wonder with all the top shelf parts).

My interest in the Caddy 4.9 came first, due mainly to the fact that I could get one for $500, where most N* are at a $1250-2000 minimum. My trump card is I'm planning on running Megasquirt fuel injection, which means all I need of the donor engine is the longblock and alternator (I'm not going to use A/C). I've sourced two <100K mile N* longblocks of the 96-97 years for only $600. There is also a 98 with 58K miles for $850. All engines come complete from oil pan to intake manifold, including injectors, fuel rails, bla bla, basically, everything but the harness and the alternator. Needless to say I've switched my focus from the 4.9 to the N*.

My questions for you are on the remaining costs. All welding and probably the metal used for mounts will be free. The exhaust will only be the cost of the tubing. I'm lucky enough to have a close friend whos very good with his TIG and is excited to help. And I can get all the steel/aluminum/delrin (within reason) I want from my mech e dept shop.

My goal is the GRM $2003 Challenge. If I could bring a running N* powered Fiero to it, I think I'd stand a good chance of finishing pretty high. Regardless, I got the car for $300 and will have that money back into the budget after I sell some unneeded things from it.

So let me know how far off or what I'm missing as far as my costs go. I'm basically assuming the car has cost me nothing and have $2000 to spend...

$600 - N* long block
$ 80 - 88 cradle/suspension
$250 - rear coilovers
$200 - flywheel
$285 - SPEC Clutch
$150 - Megasquirt Fuel Injection
$100 - DIY Ignition system
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$1665

I made estimates for the flywheel and the ignition system as I still haven't picked which ones to buy or make. I also stopped at the point of just completing the swap (no brakes or tires upgrades) because I'd rather finish the swap, get the car up and running, then proceed with the rest of the project. If I run out of budget before I get to upgrade the brakes, then I'll run the car at the event with the stock stuff and buy good stuff after. Plus $335 is still a semi-sizable chunk of change, so who knows what I can buy with it.

So please go through that quick price list I have and see if there is anything I left out or didn't price correctly. Any labor or fabrication costs should be zero as I'll do everything myself or with the help of my welding buddy/teammate. Once again, I'm talking about costs only to have the N* in place and running, not all of the related costs in suspension/brake/tire upgrades.

Also, you two have posted quite a bit about N*s, but its hard to go back and find everything. Do either of you have a website on the subject? Even if it was just a page of links to PFF threads on different related topics.

And I sent this as a PM to you two to avoid all the "you can never do a N* swap for under $2000" flames I'd probably get.

Thanks,
Dan

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Red Devil Racing

-----Will's Original Message -----
Go ahead and post the thread. The ones who may flame are the ones who don't know and are to proud to learn. Post my response, too.

Is this DIY ignition a new feature of the MegaSquirt kit? The Northstar's cam position sensor is offset from TDC#1 by 70 degrees. This shouldn't matter for the batchfire MegaSquirt, but it will certainly matter for the ignition.

You did not include the strut top adapters you'll need to do the '88 cradle swap correctly: http://www.heldmotorsports.com/88cradle.htm also has the '88 sway bar end link brackets, but you could probably get those from Kickhill (www.kickhill.com), as well as the anti way bar itself.

You can probably cut your coil overs down to $125 if you buy used ones, or assemble them yourself and buy used springs. www.speedwaymotors.com PN's 91046236 & 2551951.

You're getting a great deal if you're getting all that for $600. Does it have the oil filter adapter? I payed $2K for my engine with wiring harness, ECM, and alternator. It took 40 man-hours by experienced men to put the wiring harness together. If you're putting a wiring harness together from scratch, you'll have to pay for wire and connectors.

Have you included the cost of the throw out bearing in your SPEC clutch price? Mine was over $40 from Centerforce.

What's left after these price adjustments might cover nickel and dime stuff (like exhaust tubing & muffler), but I think you'll end up just over the $2003 limit. Don't let me stop you though. I think it's cool that you want to take a N* to a low budget race.

Even if you do come in under, I don't think you'll win. Guys are going to show up with stock 2.8's and $2000 in suspension and tires, or $1000 in a 4.9 and $1000 in suspension and tires. Again, please don't let that stop you. I just want you to have realistic expecations.

And tires! don't forget tires. On a tight AutoX course, a 2.8 Fiero on race rubber will run right around a N* Fiero on street tires. Tires are the most important element of a race car.

N* swap info (most recent info is most current): https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20010418-2-005498.html
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20020208-2-012465.html
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/017228.html
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/021440.html

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'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.

Artherd (Ben) also had a response for me...

-----Artherd's Original Message -----
Hey man,

I'm sure it can be done, if you can fill that hole in the fuel injection (The CHRFAB $1300 950-holley-bases system is the only one I know of. <well, they also will modify a TEC-II for even more $.)

You *can* even mount the motor in the stock location, but I perfer a 2" move (add $ for Archie's LT1 axles then.) Standard 88 flywheel will work, if you plug it and re-drill for the 8 N* bolts.

If you really can put the EFI&ignition (remenber, N* is DIS *ONLY*) together for around that much, then maybe you're got something!

No website yet, working on one once I get the car nearer to completion

PS: Those $400-odd n* motors. If you want to get one, and strip off just the (complete) 96-99 intake and exhaust manifolds for me, you could like keep the block for free I still need a good 96+ full intake and exhaust. (been amazingly hard to hunt down.)

Best!
Ben.

Now I'll reply to my own post (but really to Will and Ben's posts)...

Will,
There is an addition to the MS kit being developed as we speak. Its called MegaJolt (creative names hunh?). No idea how long it will be before its ready, but hopefully soon. There are also some other DIY ignitions systems out there... http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi/projects/ddis/ddis.htm

Like I said, it was really just an estimate (probably too low).

Do I really need the strut top adapters? Isn't that something I could machine myself? They appear to be just a pair of flat plates with studs for the stock mounting holes and an offset strut mount. Granted I'd be reinventing the wheel, as I'm sure Held has an excellent design and has already done all the measurements for me, but I can't be blowing $100 on something I could build for free with this kind of project.

Great link on the coil overs. I am actually getting ready to put together a similar setup on my 944, so I might end up using that company. I do like the QA1/HAL adjustable dampers, but they're much more expensive ($169 ea at Summit).

I'm not sure about the oil filter adapter (I didn't ask specifically) but I'm guessing yes because they basically just pulled the engine and removed the alternator and A/C compressor to sell separately.

And don't worry, race rubber is #1 beyond the engine mod. It would be before the rear coilovers if I could get away with it. I'm in contact with a used tire dealer, he just got a huge shipment of Hoosiers, so hopefully I can get some good ones cheap.

Thanks for the response Will. I cut a portion of your response as I wasn't sure if you wanted it posted to all.

Ben,

I'd definitely be wanting to mount it in the stock location. A spiffy set of Archie axles would be nice, but the budget wouldn't like them.

I'll know just how probable the whole Megasquirt system will be after I try it out on my SAE Formula engine in the next few weeks. If its really as painless and cheap as its made out to be, I'll probably get really excited about this swap idea.

Well, they're actually $550 from the place I'm looking at. I hope it doesn't screw me (thinking back to my junkyard aero nose post) but I located the salvage yard through car-part.com HUGE database of parts, and since the yards actually have to go through and enter the info for each individual part/engine, its not all a bunch of "call for price" ads.

So once again, thanks for your replies guys.

I didn't want to offend any forum members by just singling these guys out. If anyone else has some helpful info, feel free to chime in!

You might want to contact Chris Moore also (northstar87@excite.com). He does Northstar engine conversions and his cars are established show winners. I remember him saying something about that he preferred using the pre-'88 cradle over the '88's for Northstar's for some reason. It could be the fact that he uses the bigger Pontiac 6000 hubs, axles and brakes on his cars, which directly bolt up to the pre-'88 cradle.

Reguardless, he's done a number of these conversions, so he may be willing to answer some of your questions....

Ken S.

Thanks Ken, I'll keep his email handy. I see you're from Pittsburgh, maybe you'll get to see the finished project someday!

The only real potential hitch I see is that fuel/ignition system. The N* is kinda funny, it's got it's own unique fireing order, and of course that crank trigger... (wasn't it 47*? or was that from a differeny cylinder/sensor?)

If you've got a good solid ammount of fabrication skills, I think you'll be just fine on the rest. (Fabing your own coilover top plates == no problem.)

Best!
Ben.

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

quote Originally posted by gielamonster: Its called MegaJolt (creative names hunh?). No idea how long it will be before its ready, but hopefully soon. There are also some other DIY ignitions systems out there... http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi/projects/ddis/ddis.htm What I was trying to get across is that most engines have the cam position sensor transition at or 10* before TDC#1. That the N* has this transition 70 degrees off is serious. For instance, the reluctor wheel interpretation code used by the efi332 project is pretty complicated and embedded the the structure of the program at a low level. You may have to do some pretty serious work to get it to run a Northstar properly. Or you could set it up with a base timing of -10* and let it think that TDC#2 is TDC#1 and reroute your plug wires accordingly. Changing the firing order is no biggie. Do I really need the strut top adapters? Isn't that something I could machine myself? You could make them if you have the machine tools available. I don't have my '88 shop manual with me in FL, so I can't give you the relevant dimensions, but someone probably can. The '88 strut top is moved back about 1/4" and inward about 3/4" compared to the '84-'87 strut top. I'd definitely be wanting to mount it in the stock location. A spiffy set of Archie axles would be nice, but the budget wouldn't like them. No need to move it anyway. You'll have to rework the right hood hinge and cut away the dogbone brace brackets, but it fits just perfectly in the same location as the stock 2.8. Depending on the tolerances on your particular chassis, you may need to persuade the right strut tower a little bit to make it clear the right cam cover. Either way I'd much rather do those to things than cut away the entire section of the left frame rail.

Email me when you're ready to get the SPEC clutch. I'll give you a good deal on one for the GRM Challenge.

chris moore uses the 4t80e auto trans not a clutch also uses caddy axles thats why he uses 6000 hubs.also some things to consider are air filter coolant lines. fuel lines a service manual for n* lots of info on wiring in there.

quote Originally posted by Fiero STS: chris moore uses the 4t80e auto trans not a clutch also uses caddy axles thats why he uses 6000 hubs.also some things to consider are air filter coolant lines. fuel lines a service manual for n* lots of info on wiring in there.

How could I be so stupid? I forgot to mention the shop manual. That's another $150 in your budget.

Using P6K hubs is not a biggie. The P6K outer CV joints will spline right onto the Fiero manual transmission axles, and the rest is bolt on.

Sorry for the silence I've been busy making my final Detroit->Pittsburgh trip. (I started packing yesterday afternoon, and got home about an hour ago!)

Will you brought up some points that have been discussed at length on the GRM message board. This is how the magazine and readers/entrants feel... Yes, theoretically you could buy a few hundred dollars worth of steel tubing and build a beatiful tube frame chassis (although those are no longer legal for the challenge). You could also get a giant chunk of aluminum and machine an 8 liter V-12. The part of the rules that addresses this is the "fair market value" clause. You can have free parts on your car, but they have to be things the others could reasonably obtain for the same value. Like if you worked at GM's prototype engine lab and your boss lets you take a bunch of forged engine internals, no dice, you'd have to tally them into the budget at what you could find them for in the real world. The part about buying a mill and making all kinds of free parts is valid, but would be a little extreme. Lets face it, the maximum prize from this whole event is a free set of Victoracers. And a fair amount of magazine coverage (year round in GRM but the last one was also in Hot Rod and Car and Driver!). The other thing to consider is many of the people entering the event do have access to things like professional TIG welders or some machine shop time. It isn't that tough to say yes, I can machine parts for free or at material cost because I could do it whether I was putting it on a challenge car or not.

The rules are short and sweet for a pretty good reason. Technically, I could do all the machining I want to do with <$100 power tools like grinders and drills. The same kind of issue comes up about paint. Sandpaper and bondo are relatively cheap, but to make a show quality finish (most challege cars don't have one) isn't. The idea for the challenge is to assemble $2003 worth of parts into something that BETTER be worth more than that or else you probably failed.

GT Bastard, sounds great! This is another challenge "hmmm" but it certainly fits the spirit of the rules. If a parts supplier wants to give a discount to an entrant, good for them. I certainly don't know you, this isn't a personal favor from a friend. And I'd be happy to have some of yours or SPEC's decals on the car for the competition, which would be great advertising even if I don't finish very well (cause I'm sure a N* powered Fiero will stick out at this event).

So once again, thanks for the enthusiasm. I have a Megasquirt kit now, and will start working on fitting it to the Suzuki bike engine this week. I'm really getting excited about the system and the N*iero.

[This message has been edited by gielamonster (edited 08-19-2002).]

I'm still getting started messing around with the MegaSquirt, I'm having an EE major solder it together for me since I'm no surgeon with a soldering iron.

The starter on my Duke is shot, I need a new one. For the N* swap, can I reuse my duke starter? I'm assuming so, as I remember reading and seeing pictures of the tranny case being ground away for clearance. So it would make sense for me to get a better starter now rather than just a cheapie one I'll be done with in a few months right?

Uh, the N* starter is, I belive, unique entirely to that engine...

It sits in the "Vee"...

Best!
Ben.

quote Originally posted by gielamonster: I'm still getting started messing around with the MegaSquirt, I'm having an EE major solder it together for me since I'm no surgeon with a soldering iron. The starter on my Duke is shot, I need a new one. For the N* swap, can I reuse my duke starter? I'm assuming so, as I remember reading and seeing pictures of the tranny case being ground away for clearance. So it would make sense for me to get a better starter now rather than just a cheapie one I'll be done with in a few months right?

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"