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| 3.4 DOHC Swap trying to start for first time with issues (Page 1/2) |
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355Fiero
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JAN 14, 02:29 AM
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Hello All;
Need some help with the engine starting on the swap project. Finally got the wiring finished and everything plumbed on the 3.4 swap and went through the process below to get everything confirmed.
1. I moved the battery up front and used 1 gauge wire running back to a positive and neg terminal setup over by where the battery used to sit in the engine bay. Not using the battery up front yet until I get it running.
2. From the engine bay + terminal, I ran 4 gauge wire to positive terminal on starter
3. Confirmed I have E2 on C500 running to solenoid.
4. Confirmed I have alternator fused wire going to terminal block under C500, and L and F wires from Alt going to B3 and E3 on C500.
5. The engine is a crate engine so I filled with oil etc. and then put power to the engine bay power terminals but did not hook up power to the power distribution block under C500. Turned the engine over quite a bit to get oil moved around by jumping the solenoid to the + terminal on the starter. This worked fine and no issues turning the engine over on the battery I have. I also had the plugs out so little resistance.
6. Thinking I was ready to try to start the car, I hooked everything up to the power feeds.
7. I hooked up the C500 Power dist block to the + terminal on the starter with the red fused link wire and confirmed power to the power dist block so theoretically, the rest of the power grid in the car.
8. Turned on the key to run position and heard the fuel pump prime as expected. Confirmed fuel getting up to fuel rail and back through the return line
9. Went to hit the starter (clutch in) and nothing. No click like you might get with a low battery or many be duff solenoid. Just nothing
10. Tried one more thing to see if it was more power related or more toward the ign circuit. I turned the key to on/run and went underneath again to jump the starter terminals to see if the engine would turn over.
It turned over but very slow. Tried a few times to jump and then went to pull the battery cables off to start troubleshooting. I found that both terminals on the battery were very hot when I had everything hooked up and turning the engine over by jumping the starter. Checked power at battery and it read 13 volts as I had just finished charging the battery overnight. The battery worked fine when I had the plugs out and was just turning the engine over to get oil moved around. I will get the battery checked tomorrow as well to see if it is bad after sitting for several years.
My thoughts so far and any help and ideas would be appreciated.
- Possibly fusible link to ignition switch either not hooked up correctly or blown?
- With the full power distribution hooked up, I was not getting a hot battery prior to trying to start so not sure I have a large current draw therefore short anywhere but not 100% sure. Will check that tomorrow with an ammeter in the circuit from the battery.
- Any specific wires I should focus on to see if they are correctly connected within the wiring harness. I had the harness made many years ago by a fellow here but so long ago that anything I was told has fallen out of my head by now.....
Thoughts or areas to start from anyone?
Anything would be appreciated.
Don
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Dennis LaGrua
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JAN 15, 04:58 PM
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To enable a start, power must go to the starter, the starter relay, the injectors and the ignition module. You must have a good ground. The VATs must also be disabled in the PCM program. ------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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msweldon
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JAN 15, 07:26 PM
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Sounds like you did everything you should have....
Might have boogered the starter while priming the engine...
could now have a wicked short in the starter..... is it new or used? oem or chicom?
check for continuity between leads on starter where there shouldn't be..
if good, pull the starter and leave hanging and engage it from car circuit, if still a no go, hot wire it off the car to make sure it's working....this would isolate the problem in your chassis circuit or starter itself....
Just some things off the top of my head...[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 01-17-2020).]
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355Fiero
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JAN 16, 07:08 PM
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 Thanks for the responses folks. I am now finding myself doing a lot around the starter alignment as that seems to be causing me more issues than I had envisioned. Once I get the starter aligned, I will be moving on to the ignition item as well. I thought I had the starter aligned properly when I first put it in but I must not have as it is now sticking and binding pretty heavily.
The starter bendix gear is not lining up very well and looks like it is not being able to engage all the way. Confirmed the starter is the right model and confirmed I have about 1/8" gap between the starter shaft and the flywheel. I am still getting binding with a significant number of shims in place going from none to almost 3/16" which seems just so far out to me.
A pic of the starter gear with paint to show contact. Still a bit close to the gear in my opinion with the wear marks up closer to the inner gear surface but the bigger issue I am seeing is that the gear teeth are pretty worn so I don't think it is getting all the way in. Starter works well when out of the car and fully extends the bendix gear out.
Thoughts on how to align the starter a bit better?
Again, thanks for the responses and will update as I get each piece fixed.
Cheers
Don[This message has been edited by 355Fiero (edited 01-16-2020).]
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ltlfrari
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JAN 16, 08:09 PM
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If it's the correct starter for the motor and it's still binding with shims then I would think the only other variable is the flywheel diameter.
Don't know if manual or automatic but when I did mine it was hooked up to a manual box (the original Suzzy 5 speed from the car) and I used an 88 Fiero flywheel. I only needed one shim in there to get it lined up.
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Anything I might say is probably worth what you paid for it, so treat it accordingly!
Dave
www.ltlfrari.com
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355Fiero
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JAN 17, 12:12 PM
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Thanks Dave;
I have the same setup. '88 flywheel, Spec 2 clutch setup and a new ACDelco starter confirmed the correct model for the Fiero. I haven't had the opportunity to get back out there and do a more extensive paint and engagement review as it really looks like the gear is not engaging all the way so it almost looks to me like it might be a bit angled so I want to do a more extensive paint mark investigation. This is very unusual and I have never had the issue I am having now with a starter.
Thanks again for all input.
Don
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Gall757
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JAN 17, 05:45 PM
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355Fiero
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JAN 18, 02:41 PM
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Thanks for the additional feedback.
I am now not sure I have the right flywheel in there........all is directing me that way
I went out again last night and measured the starter gap with a 1/8" Allen key again and shimmed the starter to where it was pretty much bang on. It took 1/16" worth of shims which is more normal on any other starter I have ever dealt with. Put paint on all the starter gears for contact patch. Turned the starter over and the bendix gear would sometimes retract partial way so I am closer. Contact patch looked pretty good really. In the middle of the gear and then cleaned off outward vs inward which was good. To confirm I was close or if I could improve, added one more 1/64" shim no change and then retracted one more shim so I was at 3/64" and no change. At this point I had worn out the battery so put it on charge and came inside to start investigating.
I did a bunch of searching on here again after reading the reply from Gall757 above and various folks have used different starters on their swaps. So, at this point I am "What the hell?".... I have tried both '96 starter and the Fiero starter and both still binding. Looked up '96 Lumina dohc and the flex plate is the same diameter, thickness and number of teeth as the 88 Fiero. 12", .8" and 142 teeth. Again... back to "What the hell?".
So now, I have a narrowed thought that maybe after all these years I might have the wrong flywheel. I bought two 88 Fiero flywheels so many years ago and used the other one in another Fiero clutch repair with no issues but this one has sat on the shelf for probably 15 years without looking at it. I am just about of ideas. I am going out this morning to have a wonderful 1/2 hour counting how many teeth are on the flywheel. If it is 142 teeth, or I guess even if it isn't 142 teeth, I will be pulling the engine and cradle out today to be able to take the transaxle off and get better access to the flywheel. I can do the testing etc. on the engine and flywheel without being on my back under the car.
What a b**** this is turning out to be......
Any other ideas before i pull the cradle would be great.....
Thanks
Don
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Gall757
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JAN 18, 03:14 PM
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Qwikgta said that 'juice was the issue'...so I wondered if something could be limiting the amperage getting to your starter.
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355Fiero
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JAN 18, 04:07 PM
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Gall757;
Possibly a ground issue but I have two 4 gauge grounding straps on the frame to the engine. One on each end of the block and I also have a third ground strap from my distribution block from the front battery location in the engine bay to the frame so I have to think I am grounded well enough. Thinking current issues last night I also did a test last night though that I disconnected everything from the car to the starter and put jumpers directly from my battery to the starter leads and same result.
I just counted the teeth on the flywheel and 142 it is....
I also counted the teeth on both starters I have. A Hitachi high torque that is supposed to fit the 96 engine and the Fiero ACDelco. Fiero starter has 9 teeth and the Hitachi has 11 teeth. Even more confused now to be honest. If both are supposed to work on the same flywheel with 142 teeth, I am going back to the high torque as it worked way better to turn the engine over and will continue with messing with that one.... Really don't want to drop the cradle until I at least start it once....
Thoughts?
This is so messed up.....
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