U.S. airline CEOs warn of 'catastrophic' disruption from 5G rollout “To be blunt, the nation’s commerce will grind to a halt," the chief executives of major carriers warned in a letter.
The aviation industry faces “catastrophic” disruption from the rollout of a new 5G service this week, airline leaders have warned.
In a letter sent Monday to United States transportation and economic officials and obtained by NBC News, the CEOs of major carriers said that the launch could ground flights and leave "tens of thousands of Americans" stranded overseas.
The warning came ahead of Wednesday's rollout of the new C-Band 5G service from telecommunications giants AT&T and Verizon. It also comes as airlines continue to contend with the fallout from widespread flight cancellations fueled by the spread of the omicron variant of Covid-19 and a series of winter storms that caused travel chaos across the U.S.
The airlines warned that the 5G signals risked interfering with safety equipment pilots rely on to take off and land in inclement weather.
“Unless our major hubs are cleared to fly, the vast majority of the traveling and shipping public will essentially be grounded,” they said in the letter, which was signed by the chief executives of American Airlines, United Airlines, Delta Air Lines, Southwest Airlines and Jet Blue, along with leaders of UPS and FedEx.
“Immediate intervention is needed to avoid significant operational disruption to air passengers, shippers, supply chain and delivery of needed medical supplies,” the letter said.
Without clearance, it added: "To be blunt, the nation's commerce will grind to a halt."
The letter was addressed to National Economic Council Director Brian Deese, Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg, Federal Aviation Administration Administrator Stephen Dickson and Federal Communications Commission Chairwoman Jessica Rosenworcel." ... more at link:
It seems like with that many important companies concerned, there must me something to it? (Im no expert by any means) but would rather keep shipping, commerce, and travel.
The issue is with modern aircraft's instrument landing systems pilots use. I can't speak to the inner workings of the on-board equipment on commercial jets but, this I know. When the first crash can be honestly blamed on 5G the finger pointing will be paramount. Hoping Hudini will come into this discussion.
"Air Co" want 5G banned in 2 miles minimum is likely 2 miles from Airport Property Lines...
Go to Google Earth and use Tools, Rulers, circles. set Radius to Miles. Then Draw a circle just at ends of runways and watch area they covers...
Try LaGuardia in NYC, Philly Airport, and more.
In philla reaches nearly to the sport complex doing this. If can find true property line may reach the complex. LaGuardia ban covers a lot of Queens and reaches some of other burrows.
If applies to smaller and mil airports too.... this bans will put Big Holes in 5G coverage is many places.
I live w/in 2mi from a mil airport property line so can't use 5G for internet as main ISP or as backup to cable/fiber. If from "center" of airport property barely outside of 2mi.
That ignoring ATT et al will never cover many places w/ 5G same as they did w/ 3G and LTE even in heavy populated areas.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
As I understand the issue, the problem only exists when the airspace is under IMC conditions and an "instrument" approach is required utilizing the radar altimeter.
These conditions are not always present but, most of the time (I believe) commercial aircraft still use the same approaches. I never flew with a radar altimeter so, I don't know but, I can see this being a major issue to airlines, passenger and cargo getting where it's supposed to go if, this isn't addressed the right way. I'm not for or against 5G but, I am for safe landings. ATT and Verizon both state it's safe, the airlines and cargo carriers aren't so sure. The FAA put out a NOTAM (Notice to Airmen) to not use radar altimeters at airports where 5G is a problem.
This will become a big deal if, 5G causes the crash of one aircraft is all I'm saying.
So... are you guys telling me that with 5G technology in development the past decade... the airline companies, and the manufacturers of all the equipment being used, only NOW have determined that 5G shares a frequency range with their hardware?
I know the US Government is totally inept, as are most governments, but please tell me that this is not news to the FCC, and that this was totally unexpected?
Because if this is a legitimate failure of the FCC, then the entire organization needs to be fired and started over.
They managed to handle the phase-out of analog cell phones, analog televisions, and even a transition to digital radio and everything else with some sense of organization. What went wrong here?
So... are you guys telling me that with 5G technology in development the past decade... the airline companies, and the manufacturers of all the equipment being used, only NOW have determined that 5G shares a frequency range with their hardware?
I know the US Government is totally inept, as are most governments, but please tell me that this is not news to the FCC, and that this was totally unexpected?
Because if this is a legitimate failure of the FCC, then the entire organization needs to be fired and started over.
They managed to handle the phase-out of analog cell phones, analog televisions, and even a transition to digital radio and everything else with some sense of organization. What went wrong here?
Or is it totally unrelated?
It appears the competing industries are attempting to use similar technology to one's benefit and the other's detriment. One interfering with the other. This may or may not be true but, the fact that ATT and Verizon are unwilling to hold off due to potential profits that "may" be a detriment to the safety of those flying isn't all that comforting. I've never flown an aircraft with a radar altimeter so I can't say one way or another. But, it doesn't surprise me this could be an overlooked danger.
Edited: Although, I do wonder about the airlines claim some. In all the years I flew, I used an altimeter to know height above ground level. But, I'm talking about helicopters. There is no doubt in my mind that a radar altimeter is more accurate but, landing during metrological conditions requiring an instrument approach is very doable but, I'm not and never have been a fixed wing/airline pilot. I believe where the danger lies is if the 5G signal interferes with the radar altimeter and causes it to give an inaccurate reading. That could cause hard landings with negative results.
Hudini, your input would be greatly appreciated.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-18-2022).]
Sorry, just got off work. The airlines letter didn’t really say how 5G might affect aircraft. I am guessing it may cause false signals that set off the Ground Warning Proximity System. If the GPWS alert sounds “PULL UP! PULL UP!” and you are flying in the weather or at night you are required to execute a very aggressive pull away from the ground. Like full back stick and full thrust. If flown improperly it could itself cause an accident.
Other than that the RA is used for cat 2 and cat 3 approaches. A false RA could cause the aircraft to flare at the wrong altitude. Too high and you stall with the thrust at idle, too low and you might hit the runway with your nose wheel first.
The A320 in particular uses the RA to remove the stall protection below 100’ RA. Anyone remember the Paris airshow where the A320 crashed into the trees? The Air France Chief Pilot didn’t know this when he was demonstrating the anti-stall characteristics and flew below 100’ with the thrust in idle. The Alpha Floor protection was off, as designed, and by the time he figured it out it was too late.
Sorry, just got off work. The airlines letter didn’t really say how 5G might affect aircraft. I am guessing it may cause false signals that set off the Ground Warning Proximity System. If the GPWS alert sounds “PULL UP! PULL UP!” and you are flying in the weather or at night you are required to execute a very aggressive pull away from the ground. Like full back stick and full thrust. If flown improperly it could itself cause an accident.
Other than that the RA is used for cat 2 and cat 3 approaches. A false RA could cause the aircraft to flare at the wrong altitude. Too high and you stall with the thrust at idle, too low and you might hit the runway with your nose wheel first.
Pretty much what I conjured up in my own mind. Thanks for responding.
We're gonna have to get you retired or re-order your priorities.
So... are you guys telling me that with 5G technology in development the past decade... the airline companies, and the manufacturers of all the equipment being used, only NOW have determined that 5G shares a frequency range with their hardware?
I know the US Government is totally inept, as are most governments, but please tell me that this is not news to the FCC, and that this was totally unexpected?
Because if this is a legitimate failure of the FCC, then the entire organization needs to be fired and started over
Im thinking its probly more of a, they all knew, reported concerns long ago, and were told something along the lines of deal with it we are rolling out 5g, we don't care. But Im no expert.
Im thinking its probly more of a, they all knew, reported concerns long ago, and were told something along the lines of deal with it we are rolling out 5g, we don't care. But Im no expert.
Very possible, frequently in government the left hand isn't talking to the right hand and I have no doubt the telecommunication companies don't consider it their problem.
Im thinking its probly more of a, they all knew, reported concerns long ago, and were told something along the lines of deal with it we are rolling out 5g, we don't care. But Im no expert.
This stuff is known long before anything is deployed. Remember LightSquared (Ligado Networks) and their 5G application to the FCC that might interfere with GPS signals? In 2020 the FCC approved it despite opposition from other government agencies.
Originally posted by Hudini: This stuff is known long before anything is deployed. Remember LightSquared (Ligado Networks) and their 5G application to the FCC that might interfere with GPS signals? In 2020 the FCC approved it despite opposition from other government agencies.
This is my argument... how can any of this be? Like I mentioned up top... the FCC is an international body, even if it is technically a US Commission. If these problems were known, how / why would they allow two critical pieces of infrastructure to be on competing frequencies? This isn't old DECT phones and baby monitors competing with Wifi or other crap... this is major telcom infrastructure competing with critical airline hardware... which goes through years of trials to pass regulation (I'd guess).
This seems like an enormous failure on the part of the FCC... that's why we have a 5-member commission. I'm not saying this is a left or right problem... was maybe even passed under Trump's commission majority... either way, this is an FCC failure, and likely one that will cost either the global telcom companies or the global airline industry a lot of money.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: This is my argument... how can any of this be? Like I mentioned up top... the FCC is an international body, even if it is technically a US Commission. If these problems were known, how / why would they allow two critical pieces of infrastructure to be on competing frequencies? This isn't old DECT phones and baby monitors competing with Wifi or other crap... this is major telcom infrastructure competing with critical airline hardware... which goes through years of trials to pass regulation (I'd guess).
This seems like an enormous failure on the part of the FCC... that's why we have a 5-member commission. I'm not saying this is a left or right problem... was maybe even passed under Trump's commission majority... either way, this is an FCC failure, and likely one that will cost either the global telcom companies or the global airline industry a lot of money.
Because 5G's real purpose is for mind control of the populace, and very little to do with cell phone communications so all and any govt agencies are gonna approve 5g rollout no matter what little insignificant collateral damage may occur with a few airplanes.
I know this because I heard a youtube bubba explain it all, right after I watched the vid of how the vaccinations are implanting chips in all of those that get vacced and stuck to the side of their cars like giant arm flailing refrigerator magnets. They gotta hold them in one place while their DNA changes take place and turn 'em into the cabal of lizazrd headed, shape shifting army that's going to take over the world. It's all part of the youtube promulgated master plan.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 01-19-2022).]
Because 5G's real purpose is for mind control of the populace, and very little to do with cell phone communications so all and any govt agencies are gonna approve 5g rollout no matter what little insignificant collateral damage may occur with a few airplanes.
I know this because I heard a youtube bubba explain it all, right after I watched the vid of how the vaccinations are implanting chips in all of those that get vacced and stuck to the side of their cars like giant arm flailing refrigerator magnets. They gotta hold them in one place while their DNA changes take place and turn 'em into the cabal of lizazrd headed, shape shifting army that's going to take over the world. It's all part of the youtube promulgated master plan.
That's the best explanation I've heard yet!
I knew there was a reason that everytime I try to get into my truck, it seems to pull me in................
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-19-2022).]
Because 5G's real purpose is for mind control of the populace, and very little to do with cell phone communications so all and any govt agencies are gonna approve 5g rollout no matter what little insignificant collateral damage may occur with a few airplanes.
I know this because I heard a youtube bubba explain it all, right after I watched the vid of how the vaccinations are implanting chips in all of those that get vacced and stuck to the side of their cars like giant arm flailing refrigerator magnets. They gotta hold them in one place while their DNA changes take place and turn 'em into the cabal of lizazrd headed, shape shifting army that's going to take over the world. It's all part of the youtube promulgated master plan.
Hahah... well... I know 5G causes COVID, but aside from that, there are some benefits (for the Government) with 5G. Triangulation of devices (device location) will be easier as many homes will transition from copper POTS-linked DSL and internet, to 5G service for their home. I'd even expect a lot of fiber users who are getting 250/500/1000 Mbs might also transition to 5G for the increased output... what is it like 4 gigs throughput?
5G requires a larger roll-out, which means even better tower triangulation, even if you have settings to disable location services and artifacts that you're emanating. You can still be picked up... (if that's a concern). As with a lot of these things... encryption doesn't start at the first handshake, it's established after the fact, so you can "banner" devices, which means you can identify everything about a device that's connecting (or in the process of doing so) simply by sniffing the network traffic or collecting it in-air.
Nothing about mind control or COVID of course, haha... but it's a hurdle that we'll have to overcome. Biggest thing I'm concerned with is the idea that a lot of new devices (IOT) will likely reach out directly, rather than communicate through your network. For people who are a bit more concerned, and aware... probably not a problem. But a new Alexa that you're paying a service fee for, may choose to connect via 5G, and you'd never know that it was operating as such. You shut down your home router, and it'll still be connected. Like an iPad with cellular service enabled, or our phones. 5G, other than just being a better communication technology than previous cellular iterations, "allows for" a more decentralized approach to device connectivity... and that's both good and bad.
Man, think of the money I'll save in tin foil. It'll pay for itself in no time!
All joking aside, I see a lot of things that supposedly block signals, but doesn't it need to be a copper lining, or will aluminum work as well? I was always led to believe that a Faraday cage had to be made of copper... for SCIFs or a signal-deprived room.
This stuff is known long before anything is deployed. Remember LightSquared (Ligado Networks) and their 5G application to the FCC that might interfere with GPS signals? In 2020 the FCC approved it despite opposition from other government agencies.
Haha... yeah, it was actually a thing being passed around through the usual network of fake sites that are part of the Internet Research Agency propaganda mill.
All joking aside, I see a lot of things that supposedly block signals, but doesn't it need to be a copper lining, or will aluminum work as well? I was always led to believe that a Faraday cage had to be made of copper... for SCIFs or a signal-deprived room.
I can tell you that my doorbell, which communicates by WiFi, has a severely degraded signal because of the fact that it is mounted to a steel frame.
Note: This only covers 5G on C-band radio. 5G uses several radio bands including "mmWave" that may cause "health/safety problems."
And Telco delayed the turn on of this band for another 2 weeks
It affects ATT 5G Plus, Verizon 5GUW, and maybe some other phone plans using same networks. T-Mobile and "sub operators" using T-Mobile's network doesn't use C-band and not apply to them.
(Even many expert saying cell phones are safe have doubts on "mmWave" phone use because No Studies for short or long term for this use. This band is similar to Body Scans use by TSA et al but scanners expose you in few seconds to few minutes max.)
As I understand the issue, the problem only exists when the airspace is under IMC conditions and an "instrument" approach is required utilizing the radar altimeter.
These conditions are not always present but, most of the time (I believe) commercial aircraft still use the same approaches. I never flew with a radar altimeter so, I don't know but, I can see this being a major issue to airlines, passenger and cargo getting where it's supposed to go if, this isn't addressed the right way. I'm not for or against 5G but, I am for safe landings. ATT and Verizon both state it's safe, the airlines and cargo carriers aren't so sure. The FAA put out a NOTAM (Notice to Airmen) to not use radar altimeters at airports where 5G is a problem.
This will become a big deal if, 5G causes the crash of one aircraft is all I'm saying.
Rams
Ron,
It is my understanding that the older radar altimeters are or may be subject to some issues with a 5G signal in the area. If that is the case, one wonders why the older aircraft have not been upgraded to a newer version that is compatible with 5G signals in the area (other than the airline not wanting to spend the upgrade cost). I do not know the cost associated with modifying an older radar altimeter or installing a newer version but what ever the cost is, it is potentially inconsequential compared to the cost of litigation against the airline if an aircraft with an older style radar altimeter remains in service. The old standby pressure altimeter can still be used but does lack the more absolute accuracy of the radar altimeter.
I do suspect that the 5G issue could affect the Decision Height on an instrument approach and might slow down approaches or cause diversions to alternate airports under certain conditions. I am also relatively certain that the Zero/Zero takeoff and landing capability of most commercial aircraft could suffer. There are a lot of ways around this potential issue but most of them require expenditure of significant cash and there is then the question as to who will pay for this.
It is my understanding that the older radar altimeters are or may be subject to some issues with a 5G signal in the area. If that is the case, one wonders why the older aircraft have not been upgraded to a newer version that is compatible with 5G signals in the area (other than the airline not wanting to spend the upgrade cost). I do not know the cost associated with modifying an older radar altimeter or installing a newer version but what ever the cost is, it is potentially inconsequential compared to the cost of litigation against the airline if an aircraft with an older style radar altimeter remains in service. The old standby pressure altimeter can still be used but does lack the more absolute accuracy of the radar altimeter.
I do suspect that the 5G issue could affect the Decision Height on an instrument approach and might slow down approaches or cause diversions to alternate airports under certain conditions. I am also relatively certain that the Zero/Zero takeoff and landing capability of most commercial aircraft could suffer. There are a lot of ways around this potential issue but most of them require expenditure of significant cash and there is then the question as to who will pay for this.
Nelson
Nelson, Having never flown an aircraft with anything other than a barometric altimeter, I obviously don't have any experience with the newer instruments but, it's not hard for me to understand how this could affect safety. I also agree that the cost of one incident could or should outweigh any cost of upgrading an aircraft or possibly an entire fleet. I have had to land in zero conditions one time and would rather not have to do that again. Weather can do some funny things that isn't always predicted.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-21-2022).]
