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2022 CONGRESSIONAL MIDTERM ELECTIONS by randye
Started on: 01-05-2022 10:28 PM
Replies: 93 (1071 views)
Last post by: randye on 01-19-2022 06:22 PM
randye
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Report this Post01-09-2022 03:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fats:

About 15 years ago my youngest sister of around 17 was wearing a Santana shirt at Mom's house.

I said, "Oh, you like Santana?"

She responded that "It's a new band, you wouldn't understand them."

You see randye, you just wouldn't understand the ins and outs of the Libertarian Party. It's cool and hip, and goes with the least offensive Politicians available. They are OK with Communism, as long as it's not that mean tweater. Join them about two months before the next Presidential election when they will once again push forward someone you've never heard of before and profess them the greatest thing since sliced bread!



That's funny and also sadly too accurate.

Having 2 grown children and 6 Grandchildren I've heard that familiar old refrain "you're too old, you wouldn't understand" countless times.

All of the "Bern victims", a/k/a Bernie Sanders supporters, said the same crap. "You don't understand "Democratic Socialism", you're too old, out of touch".....(all while the dumb children, and retarded adults, that they are supported a 75 year old Marxist !!)

I also watched with mild bemusement during presidential campaigns in 2016 and again in 2020 as Leftists tried SO hard to woo Libertarians over to their side by trying to convince them they had so much in common.

There's an old saying - "Libertarians are like house cats. They think they're completely independent when in reality they're completely dependent. They just ignore all the things they depend on."

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 01-09-2022).]

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Report this Post01-10-2022 03:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:

...I’m a Libertarian

The way I see it, Democrats are currently in a war between Democrats and Progressives. Republicans had their war between the Republicans and Trumpians already, and the Trumpians won. So there aren’t that many left that I’d support.



I'd like to have a reasonable discussion here, and I'm not attacking you, to be clear. But you state this above, and the questions that first pop into my head are:

1 - What exactly is a Democrat today?
2 - What exactly does a Democrat stand for?
3 - What do you think the significant difference is between them... socialism comes to mind for me.


I then also see that you say you are a libertarian, and I question how'd you define that in the scope of what you consider libertarian values, and which ones you agree with? I reckon (since I lived in Texas for 4 years) that abortions and illicit drugs would fall into the category of being "legal" under a true libertarian ideology. But beyond that, I'm interested to know where you stand.

I then echo Fats' comment:

 
quote
Originally posted by Fats:
So you are a Libertarian that's trying to figure out if you support the Democrats or Republicans?


And I would agree strongly with what Fats asks. I say that because quite honestly, other than abortion, there is literally nothing even remotely close to the idea of being a libertarian on the Democrat side. So I guess either I have a completely different understanding of what a libertarian is, or it's changed significantly?

On that, Trump is the most liberal "Republican" the party has ever had. Trump is basically Bill Clinton circa 1996, in most ways. Trump has the same immigration views, the same fiscal views, and the same trade views. Trump is not like most Republicans when it comes to tariffs, and Trump is also by and large, a supporter of several unions.


So you continue with this:

 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
I won’t vote for another Republican until they denounce Trumpian fascism. The Republican Party lost me as a voter, along with many other moderates, when they refused to listen to or even consider their vote in Trump’s impeachment.

So no I’m not really trying to figure out who I support. I don’t support the Democrats, but when a moderate Democrat is an option, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.



Honestly... you lose credibility here with me, for whatever that matters, and that's "ok." But there's no such thing as "Trump fascism." Trump is absolutely a nationalist, but if you think that defines fascism, you'd be incorrect. I also question if you've ever lived under a fascist rule, or understand what it's like. To be clear, I haven't either... but I did pretty much grow up in Miami, and my mom fled a fascist dictatorship in Argentina in the early 1960s, and my dad literally was born in a shack during the NAZI fascist occupation of the Netherlands. Fascism is more appropriately like what we're seeing right now with tearing down statues, re-writing history, regulating speech, and the government controlling everything.

And on that, I again ask, in what way, shape, or form do the Democrats more closely align with libertarianism? For as long as I've known you, you've mostly always been a Democrat. I remember you were a big fan of Kusinich (or whatever his name is) back in the day. I think you lose credibility in your argument (whatever that is) when you start going down that path of regurgitating "radical" language that only ultra-progressives push.

It's OK if you're a Democrat and perhaps embarrassed to be defined as one. Maybe you really don't like the Democrats at all, and that's OK. Help me understand exactly (without throwing meaningless "Trump is a fascist" comments) where you are on this? I'd be willing to bet that if you legitimately are a libertarian, we are probably pretty close in ideologies... and you're further apart from Democrats than you are from Republicans.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 01-10-2022).]

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quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:

I'd like to have a reasonable discussion here, and I'm not attacking you, to be clear. But you state this above, and the questions that first pop into my head is:

1 - What exactly is a Democrat today?
2 - What exactly does a Democrat stand for?
3 - What do you think the significant difference is between then... socialism comes to mind for me.

I then also see that you say you are a libertarian, and I question how you define that, in the scope of what you consider libertarian values, and which ones you agree with?



  1. Democrats are in two camps - when I describe it above, I talk to a difference between Democrat and Progressive for simplicity, but I mean the more moderate crew from the progressive. My view of Democrats is that they're loud on rhetoric but quiet on action, and that's largely because I think most of the old Democrats today are Clinton-esque fairly moderate Democrats, who say words that progressives want to hear to capture their vote but have no intention of following through.
  2. I don't think Democrats or Republicans have a single foundation they build on for their conflicting beliefs... so this is fairly unanswerable by me. It's a collection of almost random ideas, similar to Republicans, but flipped. Take their party platform and put it on ice - they don't firmly believe in everything in there, but it's directionally there.
  3. To me, Progressives do have a fairly firm foundation (even if I disagree with it). They believe strongly in all positive rights, and believe the government has an obligation to provide for those rights. Moderate Democrats don't believe in all positive rights, and when they do, they provide for it in the form of a program built for low-income populations, not everyone. To me, it's the difference between erasing all student loan debt (Progressive) and expanding a loan-forgiveness program (Democrat).

I define Libertarian as believing in all negative rights without positive rights. It's the Non-Aggression Principle personified. I take a pledge each year that I renew my membership, which states "I hereby certify that I do not believe in or advocate the initiation of force as a means of achieving political or social goals." If you go to the Libertarian Party Platform, I'm in agreement with everything, with the possible exception of the idea that a government should never incur debt. Responsible debt is not always a bad thing. In sum, that seems like a pretty small disagreement, though. On a practical level, I recognize the enforcement of some negative rights require positive rights (i.e., law enforcement is necessary to enforce that you cannot steal my property, and the public has some positive rights due to this relationship), but that's fairly nuanced and not really the spirit of the distinction. I have other "practical beliefs" like understanding basic infrastructure and education is more efficiently cared for by a government than a loose collection of private parties, but honestly, it just doesn't really come up so I don't have to make tough voting decisions based on the intersection of my "practical" vs. "theoretical" beliefs.

 
quote
Originally posted by Fats:

So you are a Libertarian that's trying to figure out if you support the Democrats or Republicans?



 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:

And I would agree strongly with what Fats asks.

I say that because quite honestly, Trump is the most liberal "Republican" the party has ever had. Trump is basically Bill Clinton circa 1996, in a lot of ways. Trump has the same immigration views, the same fiscal views, and the same trade views. Trump is not like most Republicans when it comes to tariffs, and Trump is also by and large, a supporter of several unions.




This isn't exhaustive, just some of the top items I think of:
Where I disagree with Trump
  • Abortion
  • Civil Asset Forfeiture
  • Immigration
  • Healthcare (I'm closer to Republicans, while Trump wanted to artificially force lower prices)
  • Law enforcement (I would go further)
  • Section 230
  • Drugs (his actions removed protections, though his words indicated he thought otherwise)
  • Arbitrary tariffs

Where I agree with Trump:
  • Second amendment
  • Pulling out of Syria, Afghanistan (I give Trump credit for the decision, Biden and Trump both fault in implementation)
  • Individual taxes
  • Business taxes

Since you brought it up, I have very little opinion on unions. Individuals should always have a right to unify and collectively bargain. The government shouldn't do anything to put them down. They also shouldn't protect them more than any other voluntary agreement.


 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
So you continue with this:

And honestly... you lose credibility here with me, for whatever that matters, and I don't think it matters much, and that's "ok." But there's no such thing as "Trump fascism." Trump is absolutely a nationalist, but if you think that defines fascism, you'd be incorrect. I also question if you've ever lived under a fascist rule, or understand what it's like. To be clear, I haven't either... but I did pretty much grow up in Miami, and my mom fled a fascist dictatorship in Argentina in the early 1960s, and my dad literally was born in a shack during the NAZI fascist occupation of the Netherlands.

Fascism is more appropriately like what we're seeing right now with tearing down statues, re-writing history, regulating speech, and the government controlling everything.


Not that it really matters, because for as long as I've known you, you've mostly always been a Democrat. I remember you were a big fan of Kusinich (or whatever his name is) back in the day.


I think you lose credibility in your argument (whatever that is) when you start going down that path of regurgitating "radical" language that only ultra-progressives push.


I don't know who Kusinich is? So I don't think I was a big fan

I absolutely believe the Trumpian movement falls under the fascist umbrella. He continued to push lies about the election in an effort to sow distrust in the voting process and overthrow the election results. He tried to get Vice President Pence to toss the electors' votes out and not certify the election, because of these lies. But even then, my statement isn't just about Trump himself. It's the "Trumpian" movement that is fascist. Attempting to overthrow the election with violence, calls to limit the freedom of the press, limit religious freedom with Muslims... But it's not any of these taken at face value, it's more the collection of this combined with them essentially overtaking the Republican Party and being increasingly comfortable with the idea of political violence. If we stop the movement today, would it be called fascism in 2030? No. But we have seen the beginning stages, and I do think it's fair to say it's going in that direction if the Republican Party doesn't take itself back from the Trumpians and denounce some of that behavior.

---

Edit to address your edit:

 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:

And on that, I again ask, in what way, shape, or form do the Democrats more closely align with libertarianism? For as long as I've known you, you've mostly always been a Democrat. I remember you were a big fan of Kusinich (or whatever his name is) back in the day. I think you lose credibility in your argument (whatever that is) when you start going down that path of regurgitating "radical" language that only ultra-progressives push.

It's OK if you're a Democrat and perhaps embarrassed to be defined as one. Maybe you really don't like the Democrats at all, and that's OK. Help me understand exactly (without throwing meaningless "Trump is a fascist" comments) where you are on this? I'd be willing to bet that if you legitimately are a libertarian, we are probably pretty close in ideologies... and you're further apart from Democrats than you are from Republicans.



Just to be clear, I do not align closely with either major party, especially on their methods. But on a broad stroke...
Where I align with Democrats:
  • Abortion
  • Voting rights
  • Immigration
  • LGBTQ+ rights, and similar things I'd associate with the First Amendment, as we have a right from religion just as much as a right for religion
  • Capital Punishment
  • Generally, more lax sentences for crime
  • Privacy and internet protections
  • Social justice (I oppose most government action in this area, except where government action caused the imbalance, but it's worth mentioning)


Where I align with Republicans:
  • Second amendment
  • Healthcare, kinda
  • Taxes


Where neither party gets me:
  • Military spending
  • Environmental policies, kinda
  • Police reform
  • Justice system reform
  • Education, especially higher education


When it comes to the "big rocks," I'm really not aligned with either party. So it's fairly easy for me to drop support of Republicans until they figure their **** out. Neither party supports my goals, and taxes are not the only thing I need to consider when voting.

I hope this is enough context for you to understand that it's not just lip service. The Republican Party is not just losing votes of people who are just "Democrat-lite." They'll win 2022, handily, but I'm desperately hoping they rediscover themselves before 2024.

[This message has been edited by theBDub (edited 01-10-2022).]

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Report this Post01-11-2022 10:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bClick Here to Email ray bSend a Private Message to ray bEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:
Please allow me to help illustrate your, (correct), point:

A group of Demorats posing:



From freeing the Demorat's slaves all the way to civil rights legislation, the Republican party has led the way in righting wrongs.


Oh and "that Civil War thing"....that is STILL the only real insurrection that ever happened in this country and that was Demorats.



yes those are all CON'S
THAT IS THE BIT OUR CON'S FORGET ON PURPOSE [and that is lying to others here]
NONE OF THOSE GUYS WOULD BE A CURRENT MEMBER/VOTER OF THE 2022 DEMOCRATIC PARTY
they would be trump supporters maga hat haters every last one

those are your people randy not my guys and you know it
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Report this Post01-11-2022 11:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Really, so why didn't the Democrat Party reform under a different name and separate itself from it's history?

Sen Byrd served until recent times, having been revered within a Klan.

You take the whole thing or you don't. It's still the same party.

[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 01-11-2022).]

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Report this Post01-11-2022 11:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ray b:


yes those are all CON'S
THAT IS THE BIT OUR CON'S FORGET ON PURPOSE [and that is lying to others here]
NONE OF THOSE GUYS WOULD BE A CURRENT MEMBER/VOTER OF THE 2022 DEMOCRATIC PARTY
they would be trump supporters maga hat haters every last one

those are your people randy not my guys and you know it


History wasn't your favorite topic I school, was it?
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Report this Post01-11-2022 11:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FatsClick Here to Email FatsSend a Private Message to FatsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ray b:


yes those are all CON'S
THAT IS THE BIT OUR CON'S FORGET ON PURPOSE [and that is lying to others here]
NONE OF THOSE GUYS WOULD BE A CURRENT MEMBER/VOTER OF THE 2022 DEMOCRATIC PARTY
they would be trump supporters maga hat haters every last one

those are your people randy not my guys and you know it


You are deflecting. There was no switch in the parties. Anyone that tries to push that is lying, and knows they are lying. Just as the Democrats acted in the past, they act in the present.
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Report this Post01-11-2022 11:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FatsClick Here to Email FatsSend a Private Message to FatsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


Just to be clear, I do not align closely with either major party, especially on their methods. But on a broad stroke...
Where I align with Democrats:
  • Abortion
  • Voting rights
  • Immigration
  • LGBTQ+ rights, and similar things I'd associate with the First Amendment, as we have a right from religion just as much as a right for religion
  • Capital Punishment
  • Generally, more lax sentences for crime
  • Privacy and internet protections
  • Social justice (I oppose most government action in this area, except where government action caused the imbalance, but it's worth mentioning)


Where I align with Republicans:
  • Second amendment
  • Healthcare, kinda
  • Taxes


Where neither party gets me:
  • Military spending
  • Environmental policies, kinda
  • Police reform
  • Justice system reform
  • Education, especially higher education


When it comes to the "big rocks," I'm really not aligned with either party. So it's fairly easy for me to drop support of Republicans until they figure their **** out. Neither party supports my goals, and taxes are not the only thing I need to consider when voting.

I hope this is enough context for you to understand that it's not just lip service. The Republican Party is not just losing votes of people who are just "Democrat-lite." They'll win 2022, handily, but I'm desperately hoping they rediscover themselves before 2024.



I'm curious about a few things.
Abortion: The Democrat parties stance is that the "Government" pays for anyone who wants one to get an abortion. We all know that this is forcing taxpayers to support something the majority doesn't believe in, and should go directly against Libertarian beliefs as I understand them.
Voting Rights? Are you getting these talking points from CNN? Allowing anyone to vote with no way to track who has voted and how many times takes votes away from everyone who follows the rules.
Immigration? You mean removing our borders? That's the "immigration plan" from the Democrats.
LGBTQRSTUV rights? Do you not see these people as people because they are gay? We all have the same rights regardless of your beliefs. That's one of the basic foundations of our country.

Reading through your response, you aren't Libertarian, you want the Government to provide for you, and keep you safe, even if it harms other people.
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Report this Post01-11-2022 11:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fats:


I'm curious about a few things.
Abortion: The Democrat parties stance is that the "Government" pays for anyone who wants one to get an abortion. We all know that this is forcing taxpayers to support something the majority doesn't believe in, and should go directly against Libertarian beliefs as I understand them.
Voting Rights? Are you getting these talking points from CNN? Allowing anyone to vote with no way to track who has voted and how many times takes votes away from everyone who follows the rules.
Immigration? You mean removing our borders? That's the "immigration plan" from the Democrats.
LGBTQRSTUV rights? Do you not see these people as people because they are gay? We all have the same rights regardless of your beliefs. That's one of the basic foundations of our country.

Reading through your response, you aren't Libertarian, you want the Government to provide for you, and keep you safe, even if it harms other people.


I already stated that I don't always agree on their methods, or even often. I would not characterize the Democrat party's stance on abortion primarily being about who pays for it, it's about access. Abortion should be just as accessible as any other healthcare procedure, and my stance on healthcare is that it is not a right, as that would be a positive right. Healthcare is, instead, an agreement between a healthcare provider and a healthcare recipient, and I don't believe government should be involved.

I provided simple bullets because I don't think anyone is interested in a full dissection of every one of those bullets and how I think of them. I can expand on this all day, but you'll see a common theme here - less government restriction.

Voting rights - Any citizen of the United States should be able to vote in an election. I believe felons should be able to vote, those on probation, etc. You shouldn't have to register to vote--any citizen should be able to. I don't believe in any restrictions to vote. I do believe a form of identification should be required as a matter of logistics.

Immigration - yes, I believe in removing many barriers to immigration. It should be incredibly easy. You can refer to the Libertarian Party platform: https://www.lp.org/issues/immigration/

LGBTQ+ - Unfortunately, the Republican Party doesn't recognize everyone has equal rights. The current Republican Party Platform still, today, notes marriage as being defined between man and woman and rejects same-sex marriage. The government shouldn't even care about marriage or have any say in it, but because it does, it should be defined in terms that are not based on religious principles. Also, I am against the recent Republican laws against trans* participation in a number of activities, and access to transitionary healthcare.
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quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:


History wasn't your favorite topic I school, was it?


actually it was

and I am a member of several history sites today

I just learn real HISTORY NOT SPUN BS that you and others here push

and I was in the Gop in the 60's lived this bit of history myself
I saw the racists join the Gop and I quit as a direct result

I attended segregated southern schools before integration and heard all the lies
I know the racists before and after they learned to hide and claim the BS
we summered in detroit and wintered in miami every year I saw both school systems
and segregation in society

the dark side never can tell the truth as it will expose them for what they are
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quote
Originally posted by Fats:


You are deflecting. There was no switch in the parties. Anyone that tries to push that is lying, and knows they are lying. Just as the Democrats acted in the past, they act in the present.


pure BS and racist BS at that

in 1960 the Gop iN the south was THE LIBERAL PARTY
MLK and many other blacks were in the Gop

forget your lies about the demo's vs the KKK
and explain why the blacks quit the Gop if as you claim / lie ''There was no switch in the parties''
aka nixon's southern strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

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Report this Post01-11-2022 02:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm going to go to the actual content first and ask a few questions about this:

 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:

Where I align with Democrats:
  • Abortion
  • Voting rights
  • Immigration
  • LGBTQ+ rights, and similar things I'd associate with the First Amendment, as we have a right from religion just as much as a right for religion
  • Capital Punishment
  • Generally, more lax sentences for crime
  • Privacy and internet protections
  • Social justice (I oppose most government action in this area, except where government action caused the imbalance, but it's worth mentioning)


Where I align with Republicans:
  • Second amendment
  • Healthcare, kinda
  • Taxes




So, the first question I would ask, and not to be insulting, but what "exactly" do you mean when you say you support the Democrats on say something like immigration. Do you actually know what the Democrat party's stance is on immigration, for that matter?

You go to the party's website on this: https://democrats.org/where.../immigration-reform/
... and you can quickly see it's extremely vague, and quite contradictory... such as this,]

"Democrats will continue to work toward comprehensive immigration reform that fixes our nation’s broken immigration system, improves border security, prioritizes enforcement so we are targeting criminals – not families, keeps families together, and strengthens our economy."

... we know that's not at all true because they have eliminated all of Trump's policies, while actually continuing the Obama-era policy of child / parent separation. They actually continue to do this to this day. I can explain in detail if you want me to why this is done, but it's not necessarily pertinent for the argument.

What Democrats are actually doing is allowing as many illegals as they possibly can, into the country. There is no intent to stop them, but they are encouraging it. They resist any fight from the courts or anyone else to do this. The goal of course is to get as many people into this country as possible... with the intent to make them future Democrat voters.


So I ask, what exactly is it about the Democrat platform with immigration do you actually support? And your response shouldn't even mention Trump, otherwise you have no foundation for your argument.


VOTING RIGHTS, what exactly do you think is the Democrat's platform? Do you agree that mass-mail-in voting should be done across the board? Democrats just passed a law in New York that allows non-citizens (over 800k) to vote in NYC elections. Does this mean you support this? Or not?

More lax sentences for crimes? It was Trump that pushed for and passed the Criminal Justice reform.


 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:

My view of Democrats is that they're loud on rhetoric but quiet on action


Seems to me they've done some pretty sweeping things... they've literally cancelled all new oil drilling across all Federal lands, cancelled 3 pipelines, and have single-handedly raised gas prices as a result in order to promote green energy... to the detriment of most of their voters. They've also abandoned all border wall construction, and allowed mass illegal immigration in hopes it'll assist their ability to retain votes in the future. They've been told numerous times that actions they are taking are unconstitutional, but continue to push regardless of what the courts say. What to you mean as "quiet on action?" If they had a 60-vote majority in the senate, they'd be passing laws left and right.


Being completely honest... I don't think you're libertarian at all. I think aside from gun ownership, you're basically a modern day progressive, but would likely be embarrassed to call yourself a "Democrat."

Either you don't /really/ know what the Democrat platform actually is... or you're not a libertarian at all.
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82-T/A [At Work]

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quote
Originally posted by ray b:

yes those are all CON'S




Prescott Bush, voted for the Civil Rights act of 1964
Al Gore's father, voted against the Civil Rights act of 1964

Anita King is still a Republican.

My family... the only link I have to the United States (my grandfather on my mom's side), was a Republican his whole life. His family was a Republican, and they fought for the Missouri 23rd Volunteer Regiment / Union army.


There was no magical "shift."
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Report this Post01-11-2022 03:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:

Immigration



I responded to Brad on this, but my view is the same as the Libertarian Party: https://www.lp.org/issues/immigration/

It should be exceptionally easy. I don't care if someone is an "illegal" immigrant, as long as they aren't otherwise infringing on anyone's rights. So please reread my words:

 
quote
Just to be clear, I do not align closely with either major party, especially on their methods. But on a broad stroke...


What I mean by this is that I don't believe the Democrats or Republicans do things correctly, are effective at what they do, or often even do what they say, but in broad terms, this is an easy-to-understand list of where I am.


 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:


Being completely honest... I don't think you're libertarian at all. I think aside from gun ownership, you're basically a modern day progressive, but would likely be embarrassed to call yourself a "Democrat."

Either you don't /really/ know what the Democrat platform actually is... or you're not a libertarian at all.


My views line up with the Libertarian Party platform. You just have a very common idea that Libertarians are temporarily-embarrassed Republicans. It isn't true. I am a Libertarian, you just aren't very familiar with our platform or beliefs. All of my beliefs come down to the same foundation, and it's really easy to extrapolate out everything from there.
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quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Prescott Bush, voted for the Civil Rights act of 1964
Al Gore's father, voted against the Civil Rights act of 1964

Anita King is still a Republican.

My family... the only link I have to the United States (my grandfather on my mom's side), was a Republican his whole life. His family was a Republican, and they fought for the Missouri 23rd Volunteer Regiment / Union army.


There was no magical "shift."


THIS GUY https://www.theguardian.com...5/usa.secondworldwar

''George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.''

ONE SEES WHY OUR CON'S HATE THEIR REAL HISTORY
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Report this Post01-11-2022 04:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:

My views line up with the Libertarian Party platform. You just have a very common idea that Libertarians are temporarily-embarrassed Republicans. It isn't true. I am a Libertarian, you just aren't very familiar with our platform or beliefs. All of my beliefs come down to the same foundation, and it's really easy to extrapolate out everything from there.


I hear what you're saying, but what you're doing seems to be opposite of this.

I see you're living in Dallas Texas right now. Just a question, but weren't you living in California several years ago? Why did you move? Not just for work I suspect?


If I try hard enough, I could convince anyone that my views are "classically liberal" and that really I'm a Democrat... despite the fact I used to vote as one.

Sometimes we also assimilate to a set of believes that someone has already built for us... are you doing this as a "libertarian?"

Party leaders will come and go and change things as they please... but the Oxford dictionary understanding of a Libertarian is:

"...an advocate or supporter of a political philosophy that advocates only minimal state intervention in the free market and the private lives of citizens."


That simply could just not be any more further from the truth. No matter how much you are trying to convince us, or yourself... that you support neither the totally evil Republicans, or the temporarily uncool Democrats, the fact is... you could not possibly be anything further from a libertarian than you are with the statements you've made... by anyone's definition.


I would simply say you are a disenfranchised Democrat voter... your ideals absolutely adhere to the Democrats, and even if you don't like the title, that's what you are.
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Report this Post01-11-2022 04:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bClick Here to Email ray bSend a Private Message to ray bEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
you know there are very good reasons we call our system '' western liberal democracy''

if you do not understand each part and how the parts fit together you could think the trump was a good idea
but then you DO NOT WANT western liberal democracy you want something unamerican to gain an advantage or because you are afraid
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Report this Post01-11-2022 04:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Our system of government is correctly defined as a Constitutional Republic.

Perhaps you were thinking of some European nation?

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Report this Post01-11-2022 05:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bClick Here to Email ray bSend a Private Message to ray bEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
no I was thinking that trumpisum is NOT a form of western liberal democracy at it's very core
it is something that is a much darker evil lurking there

it is a form we have seen before and had to fight a war against in europe just a bit before I was born

[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 01-11-2022).]

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Report this Post01-11-2022 05:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:


That simply could just not be any more further from the truth. No matter how much you are trying to convince us, or yourself... that you support neither the totally evil Republicans, or the temporarily uncool Democrats, the fact is... you could not possibly be anything further from a libertarian than you are with the statements you've made... by anyone's definition.


I would simply say you are a disenfranchised Democrat voter... your ideals absolutely adhere to the Democrats, and even if you don't like the title, that's what you are.





Like I said: "Most people have the ideological IQ of a tree stump" and nothing illustrates that better than the young "Dub" has here.

It is amusing though to read the gobbeldy-gook, mish-mash of contradictory and irreconcilable political posturing that he attempts to assemble into some vaguely coherent "position" that is anything but "libertarian".

It's what you get when a Leftist tries to "identify as" something else.

Everyone else sees him as just a guy in a dress. He just thinks you won't see him for what he really is if tries hard enough to get you to share his delusion.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 01-11-2022).]

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Report this Post01-11-2022 06:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ray b:

no I was thinking that trumpisum is NOT a form of western liberal democracy at it's very core
it is something that is a much darker evil lurking there

it is a form we have seen before and had to fight a war against in europe just a bit before I was born



Trump.had his Son In-Law running his policy directives. You arent being anti-Semitic are you?

Idk, but was it actually a war for giving the Soviet communists half of Europe? A war to preserve and re-emcumber Germany to international central banks? A war to squander the British empire and kill off 10s of millions of Europeans?
So they can now be force injected with an experimental jab and forced locked down because some fat people arent healthy enough to shake it off like they should be able to.
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Report this Post01-11-2022 06:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

sourmash

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Member since Jul 2016
 
quote
Originally posted by ray b:

you know there are very good reasons we call our system '' western liberal democracy''

if you do not understand each part and how the parts fit together you could think the trump was a good idea
but then you DO NOT WANT western liberal democracy you want something unamerican to gain an advantage or because you are afraid


I want a return of something more like the original intent of the signers of the founding documents.

Trump is just a civic nationalist. Better than most major names in either of the 2 major parties.
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Report this Post01-11-2022 06:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:


I hear what you're saying, but what you're doing seems to be opposite of this.

I see you're living in Dallas Texas right now. Just a question, but weren't you living in California several years ago? Why did you move? Not just for work I suspect?


If I try hard enough, I could convince anyone that my views are "classically liberal" and that really I'm a Democrat... despite the fact I used to vote as one.

Sometimes we also assimilate to a set of believes that someone has already built for us... are you doing this as a "libertarian?"

Party leaders will come and go and change things as they please... but the Oxford dictionary understanding of a Libertarian is:

"...an advocate or supporter of a political philosophy that advocates only minimal state intervention in the free market and the private lives of citizens."


That simply could just not be any more further from the truth. No matter how much you are trying to convince us, or yourself... that you support neither the totally evil Republicans, or the temporarily uncool Democrats, the fact is... you could not possibly be anything further from a libertarian than you are with the statements you've made... by anyone's definition.


I would simply say you are a disenfranchised Democrat voter... your ideals absolutely adhere to the Democrats, and even if you don't like the title, that's what you are.


I don't know why you're focused on what you want to interpret my beliefs to be, instead of just reading what I've already posted.

I advocate and support for minimal state intervention in the free market and the private lives of citizens, that's a very good and accurate baseline. This will take me awhile, so unless you're really interested in a specific topic, you're going to have to let the Libertarian Party speak for me in some cases. Let me go back through my list:

 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:

Where I align with Democrats:
  • Abortion
  • Voting rights
  • Immigration
  • LGBTQ+ rights, and similar things I'd associate with the First Amendment, as we have a right from religion just as much as a right for religion
  • Capital Punishment
  • Generally, more lax sentences for crime
  • Privacy and internet protections
  • Social justice (I oppose most government action in this area, except where government action caused the imbalance, but it's worth mentioning)


Where I align with Republicans:
  • Second amendment
  • Healthcare, kinda
  • Taxes


Where neither party gets me:
  • Military spending
  • Environmental policies, kinda
  • Police reform
  • Justice system reform
  • Education, especially higher education



Where I align with Democrats:
  • Abortion - Bodily autonomy, full stop. The government cannot mandate the use of my body for another individual. The Libertarian Party has the same position.
  • Voting rights - I believe in very easy access to voting, by any citizen, including felons. Furthermore, citizens should be able to vote for all legitimate candidates, and ballot access should not be restricted with ever-changing rules. No candidates should receive any funding, and private parties should be able to voluntarily donate to campaigns without limit. The Libertarian Party has the same positions.
  • Immigration - I've stated multiple times, but I believe in very easy immigration. The Libertarian Party has the same position. To emphasize: Libertarians do not support classifying undocumented immigrants as criminals.
  • LGBTQ+ - The Libertarian Party specifically called for an end to LGBTQ exclusionary laws when it was created in 1972. I'm aligned with their position.
  • Capital Punishment - The State has no authority over my right to life, period. The Libertarian Party doesn't take a specific position on this, but most Libertarians do not support Capital Punishment.
  • Generally, more lax sentences for crime - The Libertarian Party supports abolishment of all victimless crimes, including drugs and sex work, and more lax sentences for other crimes. Their position on this is a good read.
  • Privacy and internet protections - Another one in their platform.
  • Social justice - Along with the Crime and Punishment position that specifically calls out disproportionate punishment, which is most of my social justice stance from a government perspective, I also support social justice from a private perspective. There are a lot of positions that I take privately that go beyond what I believe government should be involved in, but I'm noting this one due to Randy calling it out. My position on social justice is that we should all look to understand how broad societal influences make up who we are as individuals, and how the government has had a role in that, we've all had a role in it. That doesn't mean I support government action to this. In fact, I do not support special classes and support the right of businesses to voluntarily choose who they do and do not provide service to. However, I do believe in talking more about this and understanding ourselves better. Some Libertarians agree with me on this perspective, most do not.

Where I align with Republicans:
  • Second amendment - We all have a right to own property. Expanding on the second amendment, I support an expansion of what we can own. To be honest, theoretically I would love to say we should have no restriction, including a nuclear bomb. But pragmatically, I do realize that's a little nutty, so this is where practically I would support some very limited rules, but you and I will never vote on anything nearing my line in the sand because it's wayyyy out there. I go further than the Libertarian Party on this.
  • Healthcare, kinda - Healthcare is not a right, as it requires action by the healthcare practitioners. No "right" that requires action from another is a true right (this is when I discussed negative vs. positive rights earlier). I believe in negative rights with no positive rights (with the caveats I listed earlier in this thread). The Libertarian Party has the same position.
  • Taxes - We all have a right to own property and make private agreements. Taxation takes my property and agency away. I recognize some taxation is necessary to uphold the country, but it should be limited. The Libertarian Party goes further than I do on this.

Where neither party gets me:
  • Military spending - Drastically reduce, just enough to defend our liberty. The Libertarian Party has the same position.
  • Environmental policies, kinda - I don't believe in government capping greenhouse gasses, or supporting any kind of energy through subsidies. An informed public should choose the companies they support. The Libertarian Party has the same position I would love to see a nice clean earth, that was created through voluntary contract. It is very unlikely to happen because most consumers do not concern themselves with what goes into their products or food, but that doesn't mean we have a right to stomp on the rights of those businesses. If direct harm to neighboring communities can be linked to specific emissions, I do support private party suing for damages. It would be unlikely to ever win though.
  • Police reform - We've been on the train for a lot longer than Democrats. I've been calling for police reform for over a decade.
  • Justice system reform - Same as above, but even clearer evidence of impartiality
  • Education, especially higher education - Education is not a right, and should not be provided for or subsidized by the government. The reason it's so expensive is because we've guaranteed loans to pay for it. It's disgusting. The Libertarian Party has the same position.


As you can see, I am in line with the Libertarian Party on almost every single issue. You can tell me that I'm really a fork because you see a few spokes, but I'm not. Randy can, again, talk about how dumb I am. But I am, by the definition laid out by the Libertarian Party, a Libertarian.

Honestly, this whole thing is a little weird. Why is this so difficult to understand? Is it because the Republicans have changed so much with the rise of Trumpism that they see anything left of right as far left? The Libertarian Party positions have remained relatively unchanged, with exception of a few items like capital punishment. Can you honestly look through everything I've stated and continue to suggest that I'm anything but a Libertarian? If so, my next question has to be... do you believe anyone is a Libertarian, or do you think we're all just Democrats in disguise?
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Report this Post01-11-2022 09:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


I don't know why you're focused on what you want to interpret my beliefs to be, instead of just reading what I've already posted.




Oh my God!, Are you really that dimwitted?

We have interpreted your whack-job beliefs PRECISELY from reading all the nonsense you've already posted.


Moreover, just like I said on page one:


 
quote
Originally posted by randye:

They don't have any real understanding of, and can't coherently articulate, the ideologies of fascism, Marxism / socialism or even classic liberalism or conservatism.


The reason that so many people now "have the ideological IQ of a tree stump" is that they are almost completely "unlettered", a/k/a poorly or marginally educated, ignorant.

They think they know what ideology they, (and by extension others), hold to without ever once having studied it's philosophy.





 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


Randy can, again, talk about how dumb I am.





OK, Since you know it, I will:


You predictably MADE MY POINT FOR ME by spewing a bucket of textual diarrhea that reads like a mediocre high school student's term paper...

...and, as if that wasn't enough, you drove my point further home by simply linking a few lazy, sophomoric, references to lp.org and Wikipedia !

For crissakes, it barely gets much dumber than that.

It's also as obvious as hell that you have never once cracked a book on libertarian political philosophy, or any political philosophy for that matter.

You read a website, made a foolish "oath" and paid your money to belong to a silly "club" that has spent HALF A CENTURY of never getting more than 1% -2% of the vote in any national election.

If THAT isn't the definition of DUMB and GULLIBLE then nothing is.

You're obviously free to believe whatever dumb nonsense you want, even as delusional as what you peddle here, but you're not free to demand that other's participate in your personal delusion and ignorance. or even demand that anyone stop calling it as DUMB as it obviously is.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 01-11-2022).]

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Report this Post01-11-2022 10:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by randye:
OK, Since you know it, I will:


You predictably MADE MY POINT FOR ME by spewing a bucket of textual diarrhea that reads like a mediocre high school student's term paper...

...and, as if that wasn't enough, you drove my point further home by simply linking a few lazy, sophomoric, references to lp.org and Wikipedia !.

It barely get much dumber than that.

It's also as obvious as all hell that you have never once cracked a book on libertarian political philosophy, or any political philosophy for that matter.

You read a website, made a foolish "oath" and paid your money to belong to a silly "club" that has spent HALF A CENTURY of never getting more than 1% -2% of the vote in any national election.

If THAT isn't the definition of DUMB and GULLIBLE then nothing is.

You're obviously free to believe whatever dumb nonsense you want, even as delusional as what you post here, but you're not free to demand that other's participate in your personal delusion.





Your comments like this read to me like you are standing in the shower smirking to yourself while daydreaming your response to someone you disagree with. It’s kind of funny to imagine.
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Report this Post01-11-2022 10:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:


Your comments like this read to me like you are standing in the shower smirking to yourself while daydreaming your response to someone you disagree with. It’s kind of funny to imagine.



So you spend your time imagining me in the shower.....

Considering everything else we now know about you, that isn't really surprising.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 01-11-2022).]

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Report this Post01-12-2022 09:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:

As you can see, I am in line with the Libertarian Party on almost every single issue. You can tell me that I'm really a fork because you see a few spokes, but I'm not. Randy can, again, talk about how dumb I am. But I am, by the definition laid out by the Libertarian Party, a Libertarian.


You're simply reiterating vagueness. What I'm trying to emphasize is that your stance on things are counterproductive to what it means to be a libertarian. Your views... quite literally many of them, are counter-intuitive to upholding libertarian views.

Immigration, for one... you're basically telling me you support open-immigration, with a /slight/ hint towards them being a citizen, but not really stating in any way that you expect that to be enforced by any legitimate means. Open immigration effectively leads to the downfall of the constitutional republic, and a minimal government... leading instead to a large central-government.

LGBTQ+, the Republicans have largely nothing at all to do with this. FACT: almost all of the legislation passed that restricts the rights of homosexuals, was passed by Democrats. Proposition 8, DOMA, etc. Matter of fact, more anti-gay legislation was passed during Obama's 2008 election, in Democrat-states, than any other time in US history. It was a conservative majority in the Supreme Court that struck down DOMA and gave equal rights back to gays, and it was Republican states that were among the first to recognize gay marriage, like the state of Florida, which is wildly red (more registered Republicans than Democrats). Democrats use this as a fake issue, along with pretty much everything else. How your support of Democrat policies, which directly involve the Federal government in the lives of citizens and control over the states, is anything but libertarian.

Crime, again... I have no idea where you get your ideas from, because the link on Crime and Justice is antithetical to the Democrat party... so again, what does that have anything to do with the Democrat party that you say you align with? It was Republicans that have passed Criminal Justice reform, not once, but twice. It was also Republicans who reversed a long-standing Democrat policy on people who are mentally insane, basically abolishing asylums (Reagan). The Democrats are the ones that have even currently, enacted very strict and numerous laws... everything from making it illegal to sell cigarettes separately (e.g. what led to Eric Gardner dying) to all the other totally outrageous laws. A simple comparison of red-state and blue-state laws, and you'll find that blue states almost unequivocally have twice the number of absurd laws that lead to misdemeanors, and put minorities in particular on a bad-path that makes them unable to get jobs and hold careers. Just because Soros-backed District Attorneys do not criminalize theft under $1,000 at Walgreens, or the destruction of businesses in riots, does not mean that the Democrats are anything like you're suggesting. I mean, you could not possibly be more wrong here. If you support Democrats here, you are literally supporting the growth of government, which again, is totally antithetical to the libertarian party.

Privacy and Internet Protections ... let me guess? Net Neutrality? Have you read it? Again, you could not possibly be more further from the truth if you're saying you align with the Democrats. Again... you say things, but you literally don't know what you're talking about. Net Neutrality is like calling an Abortion Law "Save the Babies" when it funds abortion. Net Neutrality literally would have regulated the internet like a utility, which meant it would have been put in direct control of the Federal government, specifically the FCC (who would have been the one to pass the act by committee). You need to read this... it did everything opposite of what it said. Even if you're looking at it from the standpoint of eliminating "throttling" of internet from some providers, a libertarian would find this acceptable because the Government would have no say in the matter. Once again, everything you're saying is totally contradictory... you are not even remotely a libertarian, you're a Democrat... and that's ok, but recognize it for what you are.


 
quote
Originally posted by theBDub:
Honestly, this whole thing is a little weird. Why is this so difficult to understand? Is it because the Republicans have changed so much with the rise of Trumpism that they see anything left of right as far left? The Libertarian Party positions have remained relatively unchanged, with exception of a few items like capital punishment. Can you honestly look through everything I've stated and continue to suggest that I'm anything but a Libertarian? If so, my next question has to be... do you believe anyone is a Libertarian, or do you think we're all just Democrats in disguise?


And see, this is yet again where you're so incredibly wrong. Everything has shifted left. Your comment here, "with the rise of Trumpism that they see anything left of right as far left?"

... Trump is the most LIBERAL Republican that we've had in office in the history of the Republican party. He literally supports almost everything that was antithetical to the Republican party. He was a strong supporter of tariffs, which Republicans have always been completely against. He was very strong on border protections, which generally has been a bi-partisan football because the left wanted new voters, and the right wanted cheap labor... Trump was decidedly centrist on this. In almost every category, Trump was left of Reagan and Bush. Trump was more similar to Bill Clinton than any other president I can seem to match him with. Your comment there shows me you really do not understand anything about the dynamics of political direction.


You are not at all a libertarian, everything you support effectively leads to a stronger central-government, and more government control. You are doing a lot of mental gymnastics to try to convince yourself that you're a libertarian. What you say, and what you've actually shown me, are polar opposites... if I had to place you in a party, I'd say you more likely align with the Green Party:

https://www.gp.org/

Which is... environmentalism, smaller, but involved government, but controlled by the people in a popular democracy (don't really support a republic)... and basically everything else you've ACTUALLY stated about crime / LGBT+, etc... without fakely trying to align it to the libertarian charter.


EDIT: lots of spelling mistakes, sorry, writing this fast.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 01-12-2022).]

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Report this Post01-12-2022 09:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Todd, with all due respect, you're taking leaps and making assumptions that aren't what I stated. You're fighting a strawman of what you think I am, when in reality, I align almost perfectly with the Libertarian Party.

You misunderstand what the Libertarian Party is and what their platform says, which is okay, but that's on you. The reason I posted the Libertarian Party platform so many times is because I'm trying to show you that it's all there. It's on you to actually read it.
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quote
Originally posted by theBDub:

Todd, with all due respect, you're taking leaps and making assumptions that aren't what I stated. You're fighting a strawman of what you think I am, when in reality, I align almost perfectly with the Libertarian Party.

You misunderstand what the Libertarian Party is and what their platform says, which is okay, but that's on you. The reason I posted the Libertarian Party platform so many times is because I'm trying to show you that it's all there. It's on you to actually read it.



Point blank... being libertarian stands for a limited, decentralized government... period.

Everything that you've vaguely professed, is for increased government intervention.


You are not a libertarian.
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Report this Post01-12-2022 11:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sourmashClick Here to Email sourmashSend a Private Message to sourmashEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Gotta agree with that.
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Report this Post01-12-2022 12:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Point blank... being libertarian stands for a limited, decentralized government... period.

Everything that you've vaguely professed, is for increased government intervention.


You are not a libertarian.


Everything I posted is about protecting individual liberty and limiting government power, intervention, and involvement.
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Report this Post01-12-2022 01:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by theBDub:

Everything I posted is about protecting individual liberty and limiting government power, intervention, and involvement.



I'm sorry... I respect your right to believe what you think, but what you've said / stated, and what you've presented simply does not convince me.

Honestly, that's OK, I don't expect you to care really what a few people on Pennocks say... but understand that when you respond to comments, I take them in the view I perceive you... which is a progressive.

A TRUE libertarian, is MORE radical than a Republican is. On the political... life-cycle if you will... modern political models (not including nonsense like Monarchy, etc.) exists in order from complete totalitarian control (Communism), to absolute independence and sovereignty of the individual with a complete lack of Government (Libertarian).


A very commonly used chart is one made by David Nolan (a Libertarian)...




Based on what you've stated, this is where you realistically are... just being totally honest.

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 01-12-2022).]

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ray b
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Report this Post01-12-2022 01:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bClick Here to Email ray bSend a Private Message to ray bEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Point blank... being libertarian stands for a limited, decentralized government... period.

Everything that you've vaguely professed, is for increased government intervention.


You are not a libertarian.


the no true scotsman [strawman] argument [would say do think that way ]

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theBDub
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Report this Post01-12-2022 01:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theBDubSend a Private Message to theBDubEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
I'm sorry... I respect your right to believe what you think, but what you've said / stated, and what you've presented simply does not convince me.

Honestly, that's OK, I don't expect you to care really what a few people on Pennocks say... but understand that when you respond to comments, I take them in the view I perceive you... which is a progressive.

A TRUE libertarian, is MORE radical than a Republican is. On the political... life-cycle if you will... modern political models (not including nonsense like Monarchy, etc.) exists in order from complete totalitarian control (Communism), to absolute independence and sovereignty of the individual with a complete lack of Government (Libertarian).


A very commonly used chart is one made by David Nolan (a Libertarian)...




Based on what you've stated, this is where you realistically are... just being totally honest.





I’m familiar with the chart, and similar Anarchism is the peak of libertarianism, that’s absolutely true. Most libertarians aren’t, mostly purely because it isn’t actually functional. So a practical lens on libertarianism pushes most modern libertarians down from the tip top of that triangle. I am not at the top, I’m also not on the border though. I believe in the abolition of government in most cases that would come up. The primary purpose of the government is to protect our inalienable rights, and nothing more. This is aligned with the practical libertarian perspective, one that you’ll see very often in any libertarian gathering place or published media.

I believe that you believe I’m a Democrat, it just doesn’t align with my actual positions and how they align with the Libertarian Party’s positions. It’s fine that you aren’t familiar with the platform. One thing I noticed is that you noted the decentralized part, which is true, but I don’t want anyone to think that means we are necessarily State rights > federal. Libertarians don’t recognize the government’s power, be it state or federal, to limit the rights of the individual.
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Report this Post01-12-2022 01:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by ray b:

the no true scotsman [strawman] argument [would say do think that way ]


Ray, quick subject change. I live in Tampa now, but was visiting Coconut Grove over new year's weekend. On of my friends there (hard core Dem) lives in the grove, and I hadn't been there in several years. More than half the homes had been totally torn down and turned into ultra-modern mansions, on the exact same lots. Granted, they were nice looking homes... but all those original homes... you know, the ones where the builder had special attic vents to designate who built it (e.g. the tall ship, or the palm trees, or the flamingo, etc.)... most of those homes were gone. My friend still has an original 1930s home with an art-deco fireplace, etc... but most of the homes that I remember seeing had all been torn down. I'm seeing this all over the place, including where I have a home in Cooper City. My neighborhood is still newer... late 1980s. But the neighborhood next door has homes all built in the 70s, and people are tearing them all down and building huge mansions. It's unbelievable.

I was cruising down University Drive in Davie, and it's totally changed. No more car show in Tower Shops, and there's a gigantic hospital where the Pizza Loft used to be.
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Report this Post01-12-2022 03:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bClick Here to Email ray bSend a Private Message to ray bEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
land values went nuts in the grove
gables was about the same house worth maybe 25 k lot worth 200k+ in 2000 for a 2-1
but gables won't let them lot split or bulldoze the older stuff like the cubans did in miami/grove

we moved south to the cutler ridge area now a ''new'' city of older homes mostly 50's 3-2's
got twice the house for 1/2 the money and less taxes also

just drove out to chrome ave in what was the farms now being built up past 177 and 216 st
bulldozers were active and prices are over the 2007/8 peak by 100k here now near 400k for a 3-2
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williegoat
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Report this Post01-12-2022 04:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for williegoatClick Here to visit williegoat's HomePageSend a Private Message to williegoatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had taken the "Nolan chart" test before, but I was curious, so I Googled it and took the first two tests that came up.

Each site had different questions and each seemed to have a different bias, but here are my results:



[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 01-12-2022).]

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Report this Post01-12-2022 04:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ray b:

land values went nuts in the grove
gables was about the same house worth maybe 25 k lot worth 200k+ in 2000 for a 2-1
but gables won't let them lot split or bulldoze the older stuff like the cubans did in miami/grove

we moved south to the cutler ridge area now a ''new'' city of older homes mostly 50's 3-2's
got twice the house for 1/2 the money and less taxes also

just drove out to chrome ave in what was the farms now being built up past 177 and 216 st
bulldozers were active and prices are over the 2007/8 peak by 100k here now near 400k for a 3-2



Dude, it's crazy. I love Cutler Ridge too... you're right by Monkey Jungle and Zoo Miami... love that area. There's so much of it that still "feels" old world Florida. I haven't been down that way in almost 5 years, and quite honestly... I'm worried. Like you're saying, they're probably tearing it up. It's not wetland or Everglades, so it's not really protected... just old sugarcane farm land. Part of what I love about Homestead (which you're right by) is that it kind of felt like Florida stuck in time... as say, Fort Lauderdale probably was in the 1980s... much slower, relaxed... not a whole lot going on.

I didn't stop by my old house, but just drove by it because I didn't want to get stuck in a long conversation with my tenant, but the place really felt alive. But it was also so much faster paced.

When I moved to Florida in 1996, I went out with a girl who's parents lived in the neighborhood that I incidentally ended up buy a home in. At the time, the neighborhood was the only thing there, everything else was farmland except for some old 1970s style small non-denominational church. Now, everything is built up... strip malls, huge homes on postage-sized lots... it's incredible to me, I just can't believe it. That was 26 years ago... and I know that's been a long time, but it really feels like a lifetime ago now.

It's exciting, but a lot is lost... I really still like places like the MIA brewery in Homestead, and I love the fact that there's absolutely nothing around at all except for a couple of small businesses amidst what otherwise looks like a tropical jungle. I hate to see it all go away...

I bet the Fruit & Spice Park is awesome right now...
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Report this Post01-12-2022 04:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 82-T/A [At Work]Send a Private Message to 82-T/A [At Work]Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by williegoat:

I had taken the "Nolan chart" test before, but I was curious, so I Googled it and took the first two tests that came up.

Each site had different questions and each seemed to have a different bias, but here are my results:






I took that one too... (NOLANCHART.com or something)... and it paints me as a radical Libertarian... haha...


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Report this Post01-12-2022 04:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for williegoatClick Here to visit williegoat's HomePageSend a Private Message to williegoatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
To be fair, I have taken online tests that say my IQ is 139 and others that say I am severely autistic, so there is some room for doubt.
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