Definitely politics involved if you are talking carbon neutral in a racing series.
As long as they come up with something more powerful that sounds decent I don't care. The only thing I worry about is that they seem bent on cooperative development between teams. If that means that they will have a spec series of racing instead of every building coming up with their own version of drive train, chassis and other components. If it turns into that then why bother to watch?
Like Jonesy, I used to watch F1 with my dad every single Sunday, when I lived in the same state with my parents.
I'm a huge fan of F1, but I've been disillusioned by the sport lately. It's been... sigh, a long time, almost a decade since I last watched F1 with any regularity. I watched it religiously from 1996 through about 2011... and just lost interested. I didn't like the fact that they got rid of the V10s, and then when they got rid of the V8s and went to a turbo V6, it just didn't have the same excitement as it did before.
I'm not averse to F1 going in this direction (mentioned in the article), as I know F1 has always been about innovation and technology... but they really need to reign in their homologation efforts. The more and more they start to make it look like IndyCar, the less interested I'll be.
I was able to dig up a little about some new 2-stroke technology. My only knowledge was from motorcycles and Detroit diesels.
It looks like: -direct injection -reed valve intake -variable exhaust ports -primary compression is handled by what I would describe as a stacked piston
I found several different transfer port schemes including a rotary valve that takes primary compression from one jug to another.
I did not yet see any practical applications of some of the newer tech. It will be interesting to follow the development.
F1 is in the same boat as Indy car and Nascar. Companies don't want to pay big money for tv ad space. And the cost of racing is through the roof. F1 has always been costly, but it is even more so now. Tracks don't get people in the seats, as they get a better seat at home watching it on their 50" or larger tv. And those buying ad space only see the empty seats, as a way to get the ad spot cheaper, knowing full well , the fan is at home watching it. Motorsports all MOTORSPORTS NEEDS TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET PEOPE BACK INTO THE STANDS. At the tracks. no people in stands= no money for track, track goes bye bye, no more racing. And sorry, follow the leader racing isn't going to do it. The F! cars are too long for many of the street circuits and tracks, to pass on, other than a few "select" spots on the track/circuit . I know they got longer for safety of the driver. So maybe it is time to change to prototype cars with closed wheels, so they can pass without tires touching and sending one or both cars fly'n.
Yup, Won't help to sell seats and most big business won't buy TV time or sponsor teams or tracks because is not PC on many levels even if can reach 0 Carbon hype.
F1 and others has problems dealing w/ "Green" Governments including the center EU bunch in Brussels is likely part of "Green" race cars. Race Orgs has very minimum Global Warming etc effects overall but Greenies want to regulate them to death and close race tracks across Europe. Like Crystal palace track in London UK was killed by noise complaints as much as anything else even before Global Warming push by Greenies. Recent vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyRRmMftaIM
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
F1 is in the same boat as Indy car and Nascar. Companies don't want to pay big money for tv ad space. And the cost of racing is through the roof. F1 has always been costly, but it is even more so now. Tracks don't get people in the seats, as they get a better seat at home watching it on their 50" or larger tv. And those buying ad space only see the empty seats, as a way to get the ad spot cheaper, knowing full well , the fan is at home watching it. Motorsports all MOTORSPORTS NEEDS TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET PEOPE BACK INTO THE STANDS. At the tracks. no people in stands= no money for track, track goes bye bye, no more racing. And sorry, follow the leader racing isn't going to do it. The F! cars are too long for many of the street circuits and tracks, to pass on, other than a few "select" spots on the track/circuit . I know they got longer for safety of the driver. So maybe it is time to change to prototype cars with closed wheels, so they can pass without tires touching and sending one or both cars fly'n.
I don't know... every race I've seen, the stands have been totally and completely packed... particularly the ones in Europe, South America, and the Middle-East. Maybe not so much in Austin, or in Canada (do they still do that one?)...
Based on a lifetime of experience, the primary function of a two-stroke has always been to turn dino squeezins' into smoke and noise. Locomotion was just a somewhat useful byproduct. When I was a kid, Sears was still selling Allstate branded Puch split-piston singles.
Does anyone have any info on how they have now become fuel efficient and quiet? I understand that that they can lube the crank with a more conventional "pump and sump" system. Most of the things that I listed above: -direct injection -reed valve intake -variable exhaust ports have been around for quite some time now. What has changed the game?
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 01-19-2020).]
The Detroits are series 50 & 60 four strokes nowadays. GM no longer owns DD and as far as I know, the only DD 2 strokes being made are for the military and are classified 'off road'..
The Detroits are series 50 & 60 four strokes nowadays. GM no longer owns DD and as far as I know, the only DD 2 strokes being made are for the military and are classified 'off road'..
Yeah, I've driven Series 60's and actually like the feel of them better than Cummins. They make real good power starting down around 8-900 rpm. I remember when they first came out. It was a big deal.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Not just the most viewed motorsport, it's the second most watched sport in the world... last I checked (in this order):
FIFA Soccer (Football) Formula-1 Cricket American Football
How is that even possible. 22 races, compared to a few hundred nascar races a year. remembering, the long list of series under the nascar banner. And they all get t.v. coverage wheelen mods/ k&n/arca/ trucks/ ixfin/cup/pinty/nascar mexico/ American/Canadian series/etc.
Because people all over the world watch F1. NASCAR and other types of American motor racing is very regional in its appeal.
Yes I understand that, somewhat. other than every country has stockcar racing series. And the sheer # of the races, with people in the stands , and watching. F1 is 22 races. Many with almost no stands. I think, they only ran the #'s for the cup , nd not all of nascar. I've watched a few F1 races last year. and it wasn't much of a race more of a follow the leader, and maybe try to out late brake him in 1 or 2 spots. Nascar races are not much better. I'm not picking on F1. Most of the best racing is in the lower series. The touring car masters series that uses old trans am, type cars. Camaro's/mustangs/ amc's/ holdens/fords from down under. was the best road racing race I've been to in a long long time. And if Jr has his way, we'll have a series like that here. And why not. the aftermarket already repops the late 60's early 70's car bodies.
[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 01-20-2020).]
Based on a lifetime of experience, the primary function of a two-stroke has always been to turn dino squeezins' into smoke and noise. Locomotion was just a somewhat useful byproduct. When I was a kid, Sears was still selling Allstate branded Puch split-piston singles.
Does anyone have any info on how they have now become fuel efficient and quiet? I understand that that they can lube the crank with a more conventional "pump and sump" system. Most of the things that I listed above: -direct injection -reed valve intake -variable exhaust ports have been around for quite some time now. What has changed the game?
I would love to see some info on the new F1 2strokes.
I discounted that idea for several reasons. The power of a 2-stroke comes from two advantages. 1) Primary compression 2) twice as many power strokes per revolution
With a pressure lubed crank, you will not have primary compression. You will need forced induction. With two pistons, you will need extremely short strokes to maintain effective pressure during the power stroke.
So you would end up with two crankshafts plus a supercharger, plus whatever is used to connect all of that. Now you have mucho mechanical loss and many points of failure.
Has anyone ever read about the Napier Deltic engine? I'll bet maryjane knows about it.
The only thing that I can think of that might be the game changer is advances in injector design and timing. That is what has changed diesel over the last couple of decades.
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 01-20-2020).]
the Deltics has been around a long time, but I can't see it getting small enough to fit in a race car with any efficiency. Yes, I've seen the Nasty boats in action and heard them on the rivers and coastal waters around Danang....Had a very distinctive exhaust sound and the one I went on to visit on the Perfume River at Hue was amazingly huge. They were heavy, EXPENSIVE, and other than the accessories, had to be repaired by depot level maintenance. That means the engines were removed whole and sent back to Subic Bay P.I. for repair by factory personel. They were very fast (close to 40kts) but slow to get there. If I remember what I read in engineman school, the engines cost 1/4 million USD ea and that was in the 1960s The turbo was HUGE!
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 01-20-2020).]
How is that even possible. 22 races, compared to a few hundred nascar races a year. remembering, the long list of series under the nascar banner. And they all get t.v. coverage wheelen mods/ k&n/arca/ trucks/ ixfin/cup/pinty/nascar mexico/ American/Canadian series/etc.
For one, a Formula-1 race is a 3-day event... you have Practice, Qualifying, and the actual Race. I don't really watch F1 anymore... really just life catching up with me... but back when it was on Speed Vision, they aired all three to completion. I think Fox Sports plays Qualifying (Saturday) and the actual race (Sunday). I'm not bashing NASCAR by any means, but NASCAR is a uniquely American thing. The United States only has 380 million people in its population, and realistically maybe 50 million actually watch NASCAR. Which is a lot, but I think I might be generous there. Not everyone watches every race. I've been to a NASCAR race at Homestead, and it was definitely packed.
But Formula-1 is watched by the entire world. When people watch NASCAR, they're generally watching in support of the driver... and their reasoning for liking the driver might be varied. When people watch Formula-1, they may also like drivers for various reasons, but for the vast majority of people watching F1, it has to do with national pride. You have drivers from all the major world powers and merging nations. This is doubled when you consider that people also watch Formula-1 because they like the manufacturer, which again both has to do with preference, and national pride. Ferrari always gets the lion's share (as they say) of support, but so does Mercedes, Red Bull (for various reasons), etc.
Couple of things to consider. When Kingfisher was a team, you have... what, a billion potential people who were watching from India for National Pride? You know how when the US team makes it to the World Cup, and then and only then do Americans kind of start to watch Soccer? The amount of attention that we give those last few games in the World Cup, is the same kind of attention that every country gives in support of every Formula-1 race for their country (either manufacturer, or driver).
If I'm not mistaken, NASCAR doesn't even place in the top 20... not bashing it, but it's a uniquely American race that has very limited appeal to the rest of the world. Furthermore, it's generally looked down upon by pretty much everyone on the left, so there's a good 1/3rd of the country who will never watch NASCAR ever.
For me... I'm uninterested in NASCAR because of the homologation. I was too young to really appreciate NASCAR prior to the current standards they employ with the "One Chassis" rule. I am still old enough to have had a bunch of NASCAR Matchbox cars from pre-1987 (was that the year) when they used to take a car right off the dealer floor and modify them to meet NASCAR standards. Every car had a unique advantage based on how it was built.
But now, anyone can buy a NASCAR vehicle. The average cost of a NASCAR vehicle is about $300k. Compare that to the average cost of a Formula-1 car which is 15.2 million dollars per vehicle.
One of my biggest frustrations with Formula-1 is that they've been slowly going in the same direction as NASCAR and IndyCar, seemingly unaware that much of the draw is the uniqueness of each car. F1 doesn't have a standard chassis that anyone can buy, but they do implement restrictions and standards which almost make the vehicles the same... and that's caused me to lose interest. It was much more interesting when some people had V12s, others had V10s, some had fender skirts, others had a fan in the middle, and some had 6 wheels!
But anyway... that's why Formula-1 is the second most watched sport in the world... NASCAR has a very limited reach of maybe 50 million people, compared to the total of... what, 5 billion people across the entire planet?
the Deltics has been around a long time, but I can't see it getting small enough to fit in a race car with any efficiency. Yes, I've seen the Nasty boats in action and heard them on the rivers and coastal waters around Danang....Had a very distinctive exhaust sound and the one I went on to visit on the Perfume River at Hue was amazingly huge. They were heavy, EXPENSIVE, and other than the accessories, had to be repaired by depot level maintenance. That means the engines were removed whole and sent back to Subic Bay P.I. for repair by factory personel. They were very fast (close to 40kts) but slow to get there. If I remember what I read in engineman school, the engines cost 1/4 million USD ea and that was in the 1960s The turbo was HUGE!
I know you know it, but for the edification of others; the Deltic is the same principle as the video you posted, just different fuel.
This is the "stacked piston" design that I referred to earlier: the CITS engine
There are several different transfer port schemes.
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 01-21-2020).]
Welp, your GENERATION. MADE THE LIABILITY OF ALLOWING RACE CARS LIKE THAT TO RUN/RACE IS WHY WE HAVE WHAT YOU LABEL AS SPACESHIPS.
just like a lib. cause the problem then ***** about it.
It is why the nhra will only allow older rails to cackle at the line, and all other circle track or road racing with the use of classic race cars to be non contact, gentleman racing i.e. make laps but no racing to win. oops.
Can you imagine the outcry if anyone tried to have a rallie race in the States. Hell the sheer number of old farts that got in the way of an open wheel race in boston was telling.
The flower power generation became 1000 times worse than what they rallied against.
[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 01-21-2020).]
I can only surmise that he is speaking to himself. No one else could interpret this gibberish:
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:
Welp, your GENERATION. MADE THE LIABILITY OF ALLOWING RACE CARS LIKE THAT TO RUN/RACE IS WHY WE HAVE WHAT YOU LABEL AS SPACESHIPS.
oops.
Tell us, oh great racing expert: What is the significance of the earlier car pictured, as regards F1 rule changes? What was the progenitor of the engine in that particular car?
CLICK FOR FULL SIZE
I know you haven't got a clue, but as you try to find the answer, you just might learn something (though I have serious doubts).
Many of EU didn't like Diesels before before VW cheating now Most Hates and regulate them to death. Almost no-one wants them now because UK and other Gov push them on everyone by tax rebates etc but now banned them by road tax thru Emissions Fees in London etc. More UK/EU Cities are or soon have same crap fees.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 01-21-2020).]
The significance of the Deltic with regard to this discussion is that it represents a practical application of an alternative piston-port configuration. However, I don't think the principle translates well to spark-ignition fuel because of differences in the burn characteristics.
edit: Could we have two-smoke, opposed piston, bio-diesel F1 engines? A sort of french fry powered Yamaha nut cracker? Not only would you have eco-friendly torque, but the smell would subliminally boost sales at the snack bar.
Raise your hand if you are old enough to remember the smell of burning castor oil.
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 01-21-2020).]
They can make ricin out of castor bean..It belongs to the Euphorbiaceae family. The seeds, used for making oil, contain ricin, a potent poison that damages animal tissue. A fatal dose for an adult is four to eight seeds. Symptoms of ricin poisoning can appear up to 36 hours after ingestion, but usually within two to four hours.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 01-21-2020).]
Raise your hand if you are old enough to remember the smell of burning castor oil.
When I was working at Pirelli Tire building tires, we used caster oil as a lubricant on the tire machines so the raw rubber did not stick to the "catcher plates". I remember the smell very well raw and cooked. The caster oil was not cleaned off of the uncured tire before it was set in a mold to be seem cured. I never liked the smell.
Can you imagine the outcry if anyone tried to have a rallie race in the States. Hell the sheer number of old farts that got in the way of an open wheel race in boston was telling.
The flower power generation became 1000 times worse than what they rallied against.
They were trying to have one in downtown Miami, but I'm not sure whether or not it actually came to fruition.
