The question I have is about the pros and cons of this rifle. No recommendations for other makes or models. Just want to know if this is a rifle with or without quality components and a readily available and economical ammo. Is it priced reasonably? I don't want a gun that uses a very cheap ammo, nor one that's very expensive. I'm assuming that since this is a NATO round, it would be popular and available at a reasonable cost.
The one in the link is short and no longer considered a long rifle, therefore it is considered a pistol. In my state it is a lot simpler to by a long rifle then it is to buy a hand gun/ pistol. One of the parts that interest people about ar's is building it yourself, and making it what you want.
I was first looking at affordability. That one is within my price range, close to max. Second was the caliber.
What length would I need for it to be considered a long gun? I have a CCP but I have no interest in hiding it in my trousers or under a coat. I have other defensive weapons that are suited for that.
Prices on AR-15 type rifles are at an all-time low. You can get a brand new AR-15 from a reputable manufacturer for as little as $475.
Building your own AR-15 is pretty popular, however I wouldn't suggest that for a first time owner. A complete rifle comes with a warranty, whereas a home-built rifle doesn't. After you become proficient with your AR-15, then you can think about building one. Not only will you be more familiar with the rifle, but you'll also have a better idea which direction to take for your build.
As for vendors, the vast majority of them are reputable. You'd have to look pretty hard to find a "bad" AR-15. It's basically just a question of how fancy (and pricey) you want your rifle to be. However, the situation for aftermarket parts is different. The market is flooded with Chinese made garbage. So be wary. Buy US made parts, and you won't be disappointed.
Since the AR-15 uses a common military cartridge, ammo is common as dirt. And prices are very reasonable. There is also a wide variety of ammo types available... FMJ, soft points, hollow points, plastic tip, steel core, frangible, tracers... you name it.
I was first looking at affordability. That one is within my price range, close to max. Second was the caliber.
What length would I need for it to be considered a long gun? I have a CCP but I have no interest in hiding it in my trousers or under a coat. I have other defensive weapons that are suited for that.
I have 2 AR15 style rifles. One is a Mossberg in 5.56mm NATO / .223 Remington. It was very reasonably priced at around $650 plus tax. I can use either cheap Russian steel cased ammo in .223 at about 23 cents a round or the more expensive brass cased ammo at 31-32 cents a round. The military M193 or M855 is more expensive.
My 2nd AR is home built. 80% lower, Brownells parts kit, Adams Arms piston upper in .300 AAC Blackout. Hogue grip, Magpul stock, cheap scope. Nothing special but very fun to shoot. .300 AAC Blackout is a more expensive round to shoot at 42 cents a round.
Just make sure whatever you get that it is built to "mil-spec". There is also something called commercial spec. Stay away from that. Go with mil-spec and you can't go wrong. Personally I recommend a piston gun instead of a direct impingement gun. You can google the difference but basically the piston gun is cleaner. The military M16 / M4 is DI for direct impingement. The AK47 is a piston gun.
Sort of correct. The length of the barrel plus a permanently attached muzzle device needs to be 16" or longer. Like a 14.5 inch barrel, and a 1.5 inch muzzle brake, etc. Plus the rifle has to have an overall length of 26 inches. Less than 16 on barrel assembly or less than 26 overall with stock, SBR requiring a $200 stamp.
The question I have is about the pros and cons of this rifle. No recommendations for other makes or models. Just want to know if this is a rifle with or without quality components and a readily available and economical ammo. Is it priced reasonably? I don't want a gun that uses a very cheap ammo, nor one that's very expensive. I'm assuming that since this is a NATO round, it would be popular and available at a reasonable cost.
I am not certain if you really want a pistol style AR or just a shorter rifle style weapon. I know that you likely have other firearms and based on that would recommend either a carbine type AR (M4 equivalent) or a standard AR 15 rifle if you want to shoot at longer ranges. In today's market you can either build or buy a completed AR type weapon for somewhere around $500 (not including taxes and/or shipping). You can also consider purchasing a complete lower and then mating it with a complete upper of your choice. All it takes to swap uppers is operating two push pins. I recommend the 5.56/223 round for general use but you can use other rounds if you swap the upper.
Give me a call if you want and we can talk about this in detail.
You never know what will happen if he does or if he doesn't, but I'm considering an AR just for whatever. Not necessarily for the possibility of any civil unrest. More just for defensive purposes. My city was ranked the safest city in Georgia in 2012 and in the years since, has only been as low as 5th, one time.
The Marlin 30-06 and the Remington Pump 12 are locked in the cabinet along with other things and the carry isn't always handy. Can't keep it laying around with a 5 year old granddaughter, though she has seen it where I often keep it on the back of my desk and has never shown any interest in it. She knows it makes loud noises and that's something she doesn't like.
I'll scan through other listings on the Georgia Firearms site and see what's out there.
If and when, I'll probably go with a 5.56/.223 caliber. I'm really trying to stay between $500-600 on the price. I don't really need one under 16 inches. That just adds another $200 to the cost, and if I sold it to someone who already had the permit, I couldn't recover any of that cost. I don't intend to conceal it and even with a hand gun, I'm allowed to open carry without a permit.
I have a Cabelas and a Gander Mtn. near me, so I can go take a good look at them. Thanks for the links, Dennis_6.
Nelson, I'll give you a call on Tuesday if that's OK.
FYI, 5.56 NATO and .223 Remington are NOT the same round. Both will feed in a rifle chambered for either, but the 5.56 is a higher pressure round. Firing a 5.56 out of a .223 rifle can be dangerous and in extreme cases could cause the weapon to explode. If you get one chambered in 5.56, it can safely shoot either 5.56 or .223.
To be more specific, firing 5.56 NATO from a .223 SAAMI chamber can be dangerous. But the .223 Wylde chamber is designed to handle both .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO ammo. Plus, the .223 Wylde chamber is inherently more accurate than the 5.56 NATO chamber. Just FYI.
To be more specific, firing 5.56 NATO from a .223 SAAMI chamber can be dangerous. But the .223 Wylde chamber is designed to handle both .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO ammo. Plus, the .223 Wylde chamber is inherently more accurate than the 5.56 NATO chamber. Just FYI.
Further information (from the Bearing Arms website):
quote
The .223 Remington and 5.56×45 NATO cartridges are very similar, and externally appear the same. But there are some differences that lie beneath the surface.
The 5.56 case has thicker walls to handle higher pressures, meaning the interior volume of the case is smaller than that of a .223. This will alter the loading data used when reloading 5.56 brass to .223 specs.
Some 5.56 loads have a slightly longer overall length than commercial .223 loads.
The Chambers
The significant difference between the .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO lies in the rifles, rather than the cartridges themselves. Both the .223 and 5.56 rounds will chamber in rifles designed for either cartridge, but the critical component, leade, will be different in each rifle.
The leade is the area of the barrel in front of the chamber prior to where the rifling begins. This is where the loaded bullet is located when a cartridge is chambered. The leade is frequently called the “throat.”
On a .223 Remington spec rifle, the leade will be 0.085”. This is the standard described by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI). The leade in a 5.56 NATO spec rifle is 0.162”, or almost double the leade of the .223 rifle.
A shorter leade in a SAAMI spec rifle creates a situation where the bullet in a 5.56 NATO round, when chambered, can contact the rifling prior to being fired. By having contact with the rifling prematurely (at the moment of firing), chamber pressure can be dramatically increased, creating the danger of a ruptured case or other cartridge/gun failure.
The reverse situation, a .223 Rem round in a 5.56 NATO gun, isn’t dangerous. The leade is longer, so a slight loss in velocity and accuracy may be experienced, but there is not a danger of increased pressures and subsequent catastrophic failure.
How serious is the danger of firing 5.56 ammo in .223 guns? Dangerous enough that the SAAMI lists 5.56 military ammo as being not for use in .223 firearms in the technical data sheet titled “Unsafe Firearm-Ammunition Combinations.”
ATK, the parent company of ammunition manufacturers Federal Cartridge Company and Speer, published a bulletin entitled “The Difference Between 223 Rem and 5.56 Military Cartridges.” In this bulletin, ATK stated using 5.56 ammo in a .223 rifle could result in “…primer pocket gas leaks, blown cartridge case heads, and gun functioning issues.”
However, the danger may be lower than SAAMI or ATK suggest. In Technical Note #74 from ArmaLite, the company states “millions of rounds of NATO ammunition have been fired safely in Eagle Arms and ArmaLite’s® SAAMI chambers over the past 22 years,” and they have not had any catastrophic failures.
According to ArmaLite:
“Occasionally a non-standard round (of generally imported) ammunition will fit too tightly in the leade, and resistance to early bullet movement can cause elevated chamber pressures. These pressures are revealed by overly flattened primers or by powder stains around the primer that reveal leaking gasses.”
Here's the link to the $475 rifle that I mentioned earlier. It doesn't come with a rear sight, so you need to purchase one (and/or an optic) separately. But that's still a pretty good price.
Now the $475 is getting into my price range. I might check out a couple of local dealers to see if they have this model. It won't be a high use firearm. Hopefully it never sees more than one clip run through it in my lifetime.
Thanks Darth. Maybe there have been more than a million rounds run through the .223 bores without problems, but it only takes one to cause a death. My father-in-law had a high quality semi-automatic that the receiver exploded on him, nearly taking out his right eye. He was left-handed, so his right eye was pretty much in line with the blast.
[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 12-19-2016).]
Hopefully it never sees more than one clip run through it in my lifetime.
PLEASE use the correct nomenclature.
It is properly a *magazine*. You can even call it a "mag" if you wish.
This is a "clip" of ammunition, also called a "stripper clip". These will NOT work in an AR style rifle.
This is a AR style magazine:
Hopefully your AR sees a lot more than one magazine through it. There is little sense in owning a firearm that you are neither proficient with or use enough to enjoy.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 12-20-2016).]
randye, I know the difference but for some reason, I've always used the words interchangeably. The gun may see more than a mag run through it, but since my partner and hunting partner was killed in a plane crash, and due to old age joints and muscles, I haven't hunted since. I've been to an indoor range a couple of times and to a friend's farm, taking all the firearms I had at the time.
If some people are correct in their image and capabilities of the AR15 style rifle, I won't need to be proficient with it. Just pick it up and it does the rest.
If you plan to use the AR-15 for a home defense or a "go to" gun, then it would be in your best interest to get familiar with the controls... to the point of operating them instinctively. You don't want to be searching around for the mag release in the middle of a firefight.
If and when, I'll probably go with a 5.56/.223 caliber. I'm really trying to stay between $500-600 on the price. I don't really need one under 16 inches. That just adds another $200 to the cost, and if I sold it to someone who already had the permit, I couldn't recover any of that cost. I don't intend to conceal it and even with a hand gun, I'm allowed to open carry without a permit.
I have a Cabelas and a Gander Mtn. near me, so I can go take a good look at them. Thanks for the links, Dennis_6.
Nelson, I'll give you a call on Tuesday if that's OK.
Charlie,
That will be fine and I suggest using my cell number to make certain we connect. I have a short dental appointment at 2:00 PM today but am otherwise free until around 10:00 pm.
Thanks, Nelson. I enjoyed the chat. I've put your recommendations on the list with what others above recommend. I'm not sure when or if I purchase one. Just monitoring world happenings to see how it goes between now and January. Kind of regretting that we sold the family camp in Maine.
My father-in-law has a Ruger AR-15 similar to the one you provided the link for and it is a nice quality rifle. However, carrying the Ruger name adds to the price a bit.
randye, I know the difference but for some reason, I've always used the words interchangeably. The gun may see more than a mag run through it, but since my partner and hunting partner was killed in a plane crash, and due to old age joints and muscles, I haven't hunted since. I've been to an indoor range a couple of times and to a friend's farm, taking all the firearms I had at the time.
If some people are correct in their image and capabilities of the AR15 style rifle, I won't need to be proficient with it. Just pick it up and it does the rest.
Most people ive seen also use it interchangeably. I think that makes it pretty common. Point is you know what your talking about whichever you use. I have several guns, handguns and my 'assault' gun is a cheap trusty old Highpoint 9mm carbine with 10 round magazines. Liberals like to use the term assault gun and semi-automatic to mean a fully automatic machine gun. Non gun people always think of a machine gun that fires continuously while you hold the trigger when they talk about semi-auto and assault. The only similarity is they all fire bullets. Its like comparing a sports car to a semi truck.
Can't go wrong with Ruger, but as stated, you will pay more.
I've been doing some online browsing and all the Rugers are above my desired price range. I only have 1 cheap gun, a Taurus, and there's a world of difference in it and my Browning by Beretta. Not going to go real cheap, but I'm on a retired budget.
randye, I know the difference but for some reason, I've always used the words interchangeably. The gun may see more than a mag run through it, but since my partner and hunting partner was killed in a plane crash, and due to old age joints and muscles, I haven't hunted since. I've been to an indoor range a couple of times and to a friend's farm, taking all the firearms I had at the time.
If some people are correct in their image and capabilities of the AR15 style rifle, I won't need to be proficient with it. Just pick it up and it does the rest.
It wasn't my intent to insult your intelligence. I had no idea of the level of your knowledge.
As for proficiency, as I recall I went through almost $60 in 5.56 ammunition just getting my first AR zeroed in to my liking at various distances and getting comfortable with it. Note that is only just shy of 4 of the 30 round magazines I use, (120 rounds).
Since the recent presidential election, I'm hopeful that ammunition costs might start to go down a bit now. Stocking up 2,000 rounds of 5.56 over the past couple of years *and* still shooting some of it hasn't been "cheap", but I look for bargains on good quality ammo when I can find them. I would guess that about 1/2 of my 5.56 ammo is M855 "green tip" which I save for "SHTF" purposes and I target shoot with the other FMJ stuff. I'm looking for some tracer ammo to "play" with now.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 12-21-2016).]
Sometimes that is the problem with digital media. What each of us wrote could have any number of inflections applied. I didn't take it as derogatory.
I've owned firearms for more 55 years but have never taken the time to learn the proper or technical name of many parts. Fact is, I may not even know the name of parts to some more more modern weapons. The only one I have that I won't disassemble is the service issue 1917 Luger. I've only seen it done 1 time.
I have a cousin whom I believe owns at least 1 "assault" weapon and a club member who served in at least 3 branches of the military and I know is proficient in more powerful potent arms. If I do decide to upgrade from my single action .22 revolver, I'll get at least one of them involved. Might even see if I could visit Nelson for a day.
Sometimes that is the problem with digital media. What each of us wrote could have any number of inflections applied. I didn't take it as derogatory.
I've owned firearms for more 55 years but have never taken the time to learn the proper or technical name of many parts. Fact is, I may not even know the name of parts to some more more modern weapons. The only one I have that I won't disassemble is the service issue 1917 Luger. I've only seen it done 1 time.
I have a cousin whom I believe owns at least 1 "assault" weapon and a club member who served in at least 3 branches of the military and I know is proficient in more powerful potent arms. If I do decide to upgrade from my single action .22 revolver, I'll get at least one of them involved. Might even see if I could visit Nelson for a day.
You would be welcome and I have access to a 200 yard range fairly near my house plus some weapons you could try out if you want.
Sometimes that is the problem with digital media. What each of us wrote could have any number of inflections applied. I didn't take it as derogatory.
I've owned firearms for more 55 years but have never taken the time to learn the proper or technical name of many parts. Fact is, I may not even know the name of parts to some more more modern weapons. The only one I have that I won't disassemble is the service issue 1917 Luger. I've only seen it done 1 time.
I have a cousin whom I believe owns at least 1 "assault" weapon and a club member who served in at least 3 branches of the military and I know is proficient in more powerful potent arms. If I do decide to upgrade from my single action .22 revolver, I'll get at least one of them involved. Might even see if I could visit Nelson for a day.
Considering your budget concerns and your knowledge of what you specifically *want*, it just might be a good option for you to *build* an AR style rifle under the "tutelage" of someone experienced with them. It is very probable that you could end up with a good quality rifle that is very specific to *you* and well within your budget.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 12-21-2016).]
However, carrying the Ruger name adds to the price a bit.
That gets to my point are other brands just as good, or is Ruger's worth the difference? I suppose one could sonsider you'd also probably get Ruger service / customer service?
As far as the weapon itself, are cheaper ones as good?
I'm not really thinking of custom built from parts.
That gets to my point are other brands just as good, or is Ruger's worth the difference? I suppose one could sonsider you'd also probably get Ruger service / customer service?
As far as the weapon itself, are cheaper ones as good?
I'm not really thinking of custom built from parts.
Well it's complicated. I've built all the ARs I own myself. I've got one with a stainless steel barrel and the other two have melonited barrels. Building my own ARs allowed me to buy and install the options and parts I wanted instead of buying something "stock" from the manufacturer. It also allowed me to build ARs with optional components you only see on more expensive complete guns for a price less than you can buy a Ruger for.
Now I'm not saying the Ruger has lower quality parts on it, because Rugers are pretty good. But if you are in the market to buy a fully-assembled AR, the only real reasons to do so are so you get a "bumper-to-bumper" warranty and so you don't have to build it yourself (which does require some specialty tools).
As with anything else, it wouldn't be a bad idea to get online and search for reviews of the particular product you are wanting to buy. I would probably stay away from products and manufacturers that got a lot of bad reviews.
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 12-22-2016).]
when you buy a complete rifle from a mfgr, you get a warranty and customer service. When you assemble one from parts you source yourself, the individual parts may or may not have warranties. The trade-off is that you get exactly the features you want in a rifle, and usually pay less than you would for a complete rifle with similar features.
I'll give you a couple examples from my "AR-15 family". I have one that I bought complete (an ArmaLite M15A4) for $999 plus tax. I added an Aimpoint sight, aftermarket stock, and free-float handguard. After all that, the total outlay for that rifle was about $2k. On the other hand, I built one from parts that I sourced from different places. It also has a free-float handguard, plus a scope, a match grade barrel, a high quality trigger, and a bipod. Total outlay for that rifle was about $1300. Granted, these rifles are outfitted for different uses (the ArmaLite is a tactical build, and the mutt-gun is a target/sniper build). But I could have built a rifle similar to the ArmaLite for less money, and a complete rifle similar to the mutt-gun would have cost much more.
The thing is, if you're new to AR-15 rifles, you'll probably have a tough time selecting parts for a custom build. There is a staggering array of parts available. Decision paralysis is actually a concern. So I'd suggest not doing that unless you have a friend who's an AR-15 guru, or after you become more familiar with the platform.
Decision paralysis set in upon me. I finally contacted my cousin who told me one of his sisters' (another cousin) ex-son in law works for a small local shop that builds high quality rifles and is highly knowledgeable of the AR rifles. Hopefully, he can help clear the fog.
You will enjoy any mil-spec AR you buy. No matter the bell and whistles. They are all fun. Other than the mil-spec I mentioned earlier, I would recommend you buy a 5.56mm barrel. It will shoot both 5.56mm and .223. A .223 only barrel should not be used with 5.56mm.
Originally posted by Hudini: A .223 only barrel should not be used with 5.56mm.
...unless it's .223 Wylde, in which case it'll be fine.
Pretty soon this will be a non-issue, because the .223 Wylde spec is catching on quickly. I think it will eventually replace the .223 SAAMI spec entirely.
Most of what I've read has been directed at the selection of caliber. Chambered for 5.56 or .223 Wylde was almost always recommended. It pretty much followed what Darth quoted on page 1. That seems to be the main focus. Not much else about the components, except that some of the barrels are designed to accept a grenade launcher or have flip-up sights.
I see much mentioned about the twist ratio in for sale ads I've looked at. I expect that a 1:6 would be more accurate than a 1:8, but might reduce the range. Am I interpreting that correctly?
