What Roger seems to forget is that in a civil court, it isn't about proving guilt of the crime, it is about proving responsibility and with Stewart having as much money as he does, I see a civil lawsuit (or settlement - out of court). Just how it works, as the lawyers are lining up. I would sue... why not? Because it wouldn't be right? That is up to the court to decide, so why not take a chance.
quote
Originally posted by Lambo nut:
WTF! Comparing apple to rocks now?
Silly me, I forgot I was dealing with a bunch of lawyers on Pennock's. Guess I'll just let this play out, and when Stewart gets charged or has a settlement against him, I'll be back to see where everyone got their degrees.
What Roger seems to forget is that in a civil court, it isn't about proving guilt of the crime, it is about proving responsibility and with Stewart having as much money as he does, I see a civil lawsuit (or settlement - out of court). Just how it works, as the lawyers are lining up. I would sue... why not? Because it wouldn't be right? That is up to the court to decide, so why not take a chance.
Hey You get it! This is why I say he will not get away scott free.
"He will pay, I don't give a rats ass what the tickets say on the back."
well its in black and white, and its legal. Unless the police find any reason they can charge him with anything, nothing will happen at all. What I see is Tony paying funeral costs to help the family on his own. He may even give them more. Nothing changes the fact that the idiot walked out on a working racetrack. Yesterday the owner of the local racetrack and a sprint car driver himself said that the rule book says drivers are to remain in their cars unless in danger , and if then remain close to their car.
2014 World of Outlaws STP Sprint Car Series Rulebook
(page 27, paragraph 11.1 participant conduct)
....
" L.) Any member that goes into another competitors pit area or to ' another competitors car ' and becomes involved in any type of altercation will be subject to disqualification and/or fine and/or suspension and/or loss of points and/or any other action deemed appropriate by World of Outlaws Officials and/or World Racing Group Supervisory Officials. Maximum = $5,000. M.) Any member involved in an altercation that results in physical contact will be subject to disqualification and/or fine and/or suspension and/or loss of points and/or any other action deemed appropriate by World of Outlaws Officials and/or World Racing Group Supervisory Officials. Maximum = $5,000. ... O.) Any team member who goes out onto the racing surface without permission under a controlled period will be subject to disqualification and/or fine and/or suspension and/or loss of points and/or any other action deemed appropriate by World of Outlaws Officials and/or World Racing Group Supervisory Officials. Maximum = $500. "
Ward (team member) being the instigator can be fined, and team lose points. So theres your rules.
No where did I read that you are to remain in the vehicle after an accident.
People are saying there is a track rule, but its not posted and nobody seems to follow it.
I would sue... why not? Because it wouldn't be right? That is up to the court to decide, so why not take a chance.
That does seem to be the prevailing mindset today. Whatever happens, play the lawsuit lottery and see if you can get PAID! At least in this case there's a real loss to sue about.
No where did I read that you are to remain in the vehicle after an accident.
People are saying there is a track rule, but its not posted and nobody seems to follow it.
Honestly, I don't follow racing that much and don't know the rules but, I do know this, regardless of what anyone else does, it's pretty frigg'n stupid to be walking around on a race track while the race is under way. I'm not a Stewart fan either. If you're gonna step out in traffic, don't be surprised when ya get your butt run into or over. Could Steward have avoided this kid, I don't know. What this kid did was kind of like playing Russian Roulette IMHO. He lost.
It's a real shame, a wasted life but, you can't fix stupid and what that kid did was just plain stupid. Darwin rules of survival apply.
------------------ Ron Count Down to A Better America: http://countingdownto.com/countdown/196044 Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun?
My Uncle Frank was a staunch Conservative and voted straight Republican until the day he died in Chicago. Since then he has voted Democrat. Shrug
OK, ill go step by step in kindergardenese so you know what it says....
By using the ticket to get in the gate, you assume all risks for any incident at the event, before, during or after the event. All people involved in the event from particpants, to sponsors, santioning bodies, employees of those, all officers and officials of those, and all employees and officers of the track involved, are not liable for ANY claims at the event. Yes this is a spectator ticket. Now...everyone in the pits, garage....including team members, families, employers, concession stands, HAS to SIGN their names to a similar statement before they can enter the pits/ garage. I raced. I had to sign, and my crew members...including the Hooter girls I took, HAD to sign it every week at each event or they simply couldnt get their pass to get in. Ok, its recess time.
Honestly, I don't follow racing that much and don't know the rules but, I do know this, regardless of what anyone else does, it's pretty frigg'n stupid to be walking around on a race track while the race is under way. I'm not a Stewart fan either. If you're gonna step out in traffic, don't be surprised when ya get your butt run into or over. Could Steward have avoided this kid, I don't know. What this kid did was kind of like playing Russian Roulette IMHO. He lost.
It's a real shame, a wasted life but, you can't fix stupid and what that kid did was just plain stupid. Darwin rules of survival apply.
There are stupid and dangerous activities people do all the time. It's stupid to drive around an oval track at 200mph with 30 cars all butts and elbows together. Darwin took Dale's life too.
OK, ill go step by step in kindergardenese so you know what it says....
By using the ticket to get in the gate, you assume all risks for any incident at the event, before, during or after the event. All people involved in the event from particpants, to sponsors, santioning bodies, employees of those, all officers and officials of those, and all employees and officers of the track involved, are not liable for ANY claims at the event. Yes this is a spectator ticket. Now...everyone in the pits, garage....including team members, families, employers, concession stands, HAS to SIGN their names to a similar statement before they can enter the pits/ garage. I raced. I had to sign, and my crew members...including the Hooter girls I took, HAD to sign it every week at each event or they simply couldnt get their pass to get in. Ok, its recess time.
That is for limited liability purposes. There is no legal protection nor waiver for gross negligence or intentional neglect.
That is for limited liability purposes. There is no legal protection nor waiver for gross negligence or intentional neglect.
Stewart could sue Ward's estate for emotional trauma. Getting out of his car and walking INTO traffic has to count as intentional negligence. It's also why Stewart won't lose a civil suit. It's debatable if Stewart acted negligently, but there's no question about Ward's getting out of his car and walking towards the oncoming cars.
Stewart could sue Ward's estate for emotional trauma. Getting out of his car and walking INTO traffic has to count as intentional negligence. It's also why Stewart won't lose a civil suit. It's debatable if Stewart acted negligently, but there's no question about Ward's getting out of his car and walking towards the oncoming cars.
Since Ward is dead, it would be difficult to say that. He could have very well be trying to get off the track for his own safety. Pedestrians always have the right-of-way.
Other drivers saw him and avoided him. Stewart did not.
Since Ward is dead, it would be difficult to say that. He could have very well be trying to get off the track for his own safety. Pedestrians always have the right-of-way.
Other drivers saw him and avoided him. Stewart did not.
It's a race track, not a residential street. Traffic laws are not in play. You may not know what was going through Ward's mind (or Stewart's), but you know Ward exited his vehicle and walked towards the traffic line.
Others avoided Ward, but Ward was continuing to walk into the line of traffic, meaning each successive car would have to go farther to the inside to avoid him. At the very least, that shows negligence on his part, and that's likely all a jury would have to see to acquit Stewart of wrongdoing.
** Disclaimer ** I am not a NASCAR fan, so I'm sorry if there are major flaws in the following statement.
Didn't Kurt Bush once run out on the track flipping both middle fingers at someone that crashed him? Though stupid, I was under the impression that this action (going after another driver) was not an isolated incident.
** Disclaimer ** I am not a NASCAR fan, so I'm sorry if there are major flaws in the following statement.
Didn't Kurt Bush once run out on the track flipping both middle fingers at someone that crashed him? Though stupid, I was under the impression that this action (going after another driver) was not an isolated incident.
It happens, it's dangerous, and shouldn't be done. For the very reason that happened Saturday night in an upstate NY town race track. Doesn't mean they're not being stupid and not risking their lives by doing so.
It's a race track, not a residential street. Traffic laws are not in play. You may not know what was going through Ward's mind (or Stewart's), but you know Ward exited his vehicle and walked towards the traffic line.
Others avoided Ward, but Ward was continuing to walk into the line of traffic, meaning each successive car would have to go farther to the inside to avoid him. At the very least, that shows negligence on his part, and that's likely all a jury would have to see to acquit Stewart of wrongdoing.
From the video, Ward was standing still and pointing at Stewart. Ward was not hit head on, so he wasn't in anybody's lane of traffic. Stewart side swiped him with his rear tire. So basically a professional race track driver over steered, while the novice drivers on the track did not. A caution flag lap nonetheless.
From the video, Ward was standing still and pointing at Stewart. Ward was not hit head on, so he wasn't in anybody's lane of traffic. Stewart side swiped him with his rear tire. So basically a professional race track driver over steered, while the novice drivers on the track did not. A caution flag lap nonetheless.
That is for limited liability purposes. There is no legal protection nor waiver for gross negligence or intentional neglect.
Yes, now you got it... no one connected to the event is liable for anything. You are right in the second part ONLY IF THEY PROVE SOMETHING.
Sorry you cant read the rules. It clearly says NO team member (includes drivers) can approach another drivers car without breaking rules, that if they get in ANY physical contact they break the rules, and if they (team members including driver) set foot on the racing surface they break the rules. You really need to take a course in reading comprehension.
You talk about everyone else being lawyers...you sure sound like you think your one. I just go by the facts, not your interpretation of laws and rules. Also, not in writing, during the prerace meeting all these rules are mentioned one by one including " stay in your car till you are told the track is clear. Put your window net down to signal you are OK and remain until safety people arrive."
I will definately agree its not always followed, many times, by many people. Its also against the rules to intentionally hit another car, but it happens all the time. Sometimes you get busted for it if its blatant.
We will have to see what happens. IF the series officials and the police find no evidence of intent, he will get off scott free as you say. He didnt do anything wrong. It was a racing accident prompted by the other drivers stupidity. If he had stayed in his car as rules dictate, hed still be here. I say no one will 'win' anything. The only money they will get will be if Stewart feels some generosity on his own. Even the other drivers life insurance will not pay a dime because you are not covered if participating in a competition. If he does lose anything, even if found unintentional, Ill be glad to admit I was wrong, even if I dont believe it was wrong.
Originally posted by Wichita: I tried to locate this rule, but have been unsuccessful. Can you share where this rule is posted?
Are you as stupid as the things you post?
Really, unless the car is on fire you are safer in the car than walking out into traffic, like he did !
WTF is wrong with you ?
Think about it before you answer, because normally anyone with half a brain would stay in the car until rescue arrives, except someone like that kid or maybe you. You are safer in the car than running down the track and pointing at people who you think did you wrong, now aren't you?
OK, ill go step by step in kindergardenese so you know what it says....
By using the ticket to get in the gate, you assume all risks for any incident at the event, before, during or after the event. All people involved in the event from particpants, to sponsors, santioning bodies, employees of those, all officers and officials of those, and all employees and officers of the track involved, are not liable for ANY claims at the event. Yes this is a spectator ticket. Now...everyone in the pits, garage....including team members, families, employers, concession stands, HAS to SIGN their names to a similar statement before they can enter the pits/ garage. I raced. I had to sign, and my crew members...including the Hooter girls I took, HAD to sign it every week at each event or they simply couldnt get their pass to get in. Ok, its recess time.
I'm not sure how it works in the USA (and it did happen in the USA, so take what I say for what it's worth...) but over here no waiver will save you from negligence or criminal act. Should Tony Stewart be found to have intentionally swerved towards Ward (to scare him or otherwise) he would be charged with a criminal act and on top of that sued in civil court.
From that one camera angle, I can't pass judgment... it just does not look good and Tony's rep does not help...
Yes, now you got it... no one connected to the event is liable for anything. You are right in the second part ONLY IF THEY PROVE SOMETHING.
Sorry you cant read the rules. It clearly says NO team member (includes drivers) can approach another drivers car without breaking rules, that if they get in ANY physical contact they break the rules, and if they (team members including driver) set foot on the racing surface they break the rules. You really need to take a course in reading comprehension.
You talk about everyone else being lawyers...you sure sound like you think your one. I just go by the facts, not your interpretation of laws and rules. Also, not in writing, during the prerace meeting all these rules are mentioned one by one including " stay in your car till you are told the track is clear. Put your window net down to signal you are OK and remain until safety people arrive."
I will definately agree its not always followed, many times, by many people. Its also against the rules to intentionally hit another car, but it happens all the time. Sometimes you get busted for it if its blatant.
We will have to see what happens. IF the series officials and the police find no evidence of intent, he will get off scott free as you say. He didnt do anything wrong. It was a racing accident prompted by the other drivers stupidity. If he had stayed in his car as rules dictate, hed still be here. I say no one will 'win' anything. The only money they will get will be if Stewart feels some generosity on his own. Even the other drivers life insurance will not pay a dime because you are not covered if participating in a competition. If he does lose anything, even if found unintentional, Ill be glad to admit I was wrong, even if I dont believe it was wrong.
Criminal investigation is still ongoing. Stewart could be held criminally liable for Ward's death.
From what I saw.... Stewards car did not appear to deviate until the right rear tire came in contact with an object, at that point the front of the car moved to the right. Exactly what you would expect from a car set up the way a sprinter is set up.
From what I saw.... Stewards car did not appear to deviate until the right rear tire came in contact with an object, at that point the front of the car moved to the right. Exactly what you would expect from a car set up the way a sprinter is set up.
That's what I see too. Also, I appears to me that the car in front of Stewart nearly takes Ward out, narrowly missing him. In fact it looks like Ward actually jumps back a little to avoid getting hit. Indicating that that driver never saw or realized Ward was right there either.
I have watched the video a number of times and have read some comments from actual sprint car drivers and between the darkness of the track in that area and the fact that the driver was all in Black contributed to what happened.
Visibility was not a factor according to the other drivers. Several have stated they clearly saw Ward and one went so far as to state what his facial expression was like. http://www.nydailynews.com/...sh-article-1.1900545
quote
'I drove right by him,' Kinney said. 'He looked a little bit angry. I didn't think much of it. A lot of drivers do that.'
Interesting article with clips... from those who actually study law....
_________________________________ The NASCAR star could be charged with second-degree manslaughter under New York law if prosecutors believe he "recklessly caused the death of another person," with negligent homicide another possibility, according to criminal law professor Corey Rayburn Yung of the Kansas University School of Law. _________________________________
After the investigation is completed, Povero said, the evidence will be turned over to the district attorney as a matter of routine. Even if he is cleared by prosecutors, though, Stewart could face a civil suit.
Although the standard of proof is lower than in a criminal case, the civil court would also consider Ward's state of mind at the time of the accident and whether he was also negligent in venturing into racing traffic on a dark track in a dark suit. ___________________________________
Investigators say it could take several weeks to decide the outcome to press charges. But they do know that Stewart was only going 35mph around that turn.
If he's found guilty by the sanctioning body and the authorities, then so be it and of course there will be a civil trial. I'd be completely shocked if there wasn't. I'm just saving judgement until a lot more of the facts are known. I'm not saying Stewart's innocent in all of this, nor am I saying he's guilty. I just refuse to jump on the "I hate Tony Stewart so he's guilty" bandwagon. He's hot-headed, overly aggressive at times, and just a general azzhole. But a person having a bad attitude doesn't automatically mean they're guilty of murder.
Yea, to other drivers but according to the video the other driver came close to Ward and Stewart was right behind him. And those cars have huge wings on them.
I`m sure the "big shot" Stewart is not so well liked around that track by some of the drivers.
[This message has been edited by TXGOOD (edited 08-13-2014).]
I'm not sure how it works in the USA (and it did happen in the USA, so take what I say for what it's worth...) but over here no waiver will save you from negligence or criminal act. Should Tony Stewart be found to have intentionally swerved towards Ward (to scare him or otherwise) he would be charged with a criminal act and on top of that sued in civil court.
From that one camera angle, I can't pass judgment... it just does not look good and Tony's rep does not help...
YES, same here. Ive said all along nothing will happen UNLESS they find him liable for anything intentional. If they find it was intentional, then yes it is negligent or a criminal act. Also in a US court, his past is not admissable evidence, he could have a fistfight every week. They can only use evidence specific to that case.
YES, same here. Ive said all along nothing will happen UNLESS they find him liable for anything intentional. If they find it was intentional, then yes it is negligent or a criminal act. Also in a US court, his past is not admissable evidence, he could have a fistfight every week. They can only use evidence specific to that case.
For the most part, you are right, with the exception of anything in the past that Stewart had with Ward. If Stewart got into a fist fight with Ward last week, that may be admissible.