So my Fiero started doing this over a year ago but only in very tight corners. I've had this before and it was always due to low tranny fluid levels. But when I checked the fluid, it didn't seem low at all. And since I didn't drive the car all that often, I actually forgot about it. But in the past 6 months or so, I've driven my Fiero almost daily and the dropping in neutral has become progressively worse to the point that it does it now in every corner, except at high speed (50mph+).
If I check the level, it's incredibly difficult to see if it's full or empty. The dip stick does get fluid on it, but it's really hard to tell what the level is since there's not a very clear line where the stick is clean and where the stick has fluid. The fluid itself is clear, like new.
So what to do? Just drop in half a quart or so and see if I see any change on the dip stick? Or is the fact it drops to neutral a 100% sure sign it's low on transmission fluid?
Hi Cliff.. Does it start slipping or drop into Neutral? If it's slipping, it could be fluid level, but unless you have a leak, where is it going? When was the last time the filter was changed?
If it's shifting into Neutral, I was thinking something is moving in relation to the shifter/cable. Broken mount or something?
I'm guessing it's slipping (how can you tell the difference?).
As far as I know, the filter has never been changed. Unless it was changed when my engine was rebuilt some 20 years ago. Either way, my understanding is that it's better to leave the filter alone when it hasn't been changed for such a long time.
If you can't read the dipstick, it's probably low, if you're not sure a good mechanic should be able to tell. Trans cooler lines running to the radiator under the driver's side of the car may be leaking, or the cooler in the radiator itself may be leaking, it's going somewhere, see if they're wet. If you disconnect a cooler line hose at the transmission and put it into a bucket and turn the car on for 5-10 seconds, you should get a lot of fluid to come out. When the movers damaged my car and ripped the cooling line off loading it onto the trailer, there was fluid EVERYWHERE after a few seconds.
Do you guys have Lucas products over there? They make an additive that works great. My car would slip going up inclines when the lines started to rust out, this fixed it, still working fine 10+ years later.
As for checking the level, it's kind of annoying really. I do it this way.
Got to get the trans hot, drive some miles (manual says at least 15 highway) but don't check the level immediately after a highway drive as I find the fluid will foam. Drive now slowly around town (but not in traffic, don't "lug" the motor, don't drive heavily) for some minutes before parking at a flat surface and shifting through all gears and park again. Remember keep the engine running.
As for actual level on the dipstick if a flashlight won't help I wipe it down with a white paper towel until I see it gets wet, that's my level. Gotta do it slowly cause the paper towel will soak up that fluid quickly.
As long as you do not do a complete fluid flush. I see no negative effects in changing the trans filter and putting in some new fluid. If it was never changed it could be restricting fluid flow. As for checking the level it needs to be done with the engine warm. The fluid should have a red tint to it. Ifs it brown it is burned. While you could have transmission problems, I have worked on cars where a new filter and some fluid cured the issue. Changing the filter is an easy and relatively inexpensive job. IMO, worth a try.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Anyways, I can't think of a way that both the trans fluid cooler and the radiator itself would share a problem causing them both to loose fluid. If the trans fluid cooler was leaking, wouldn't trans fluid leak in the coolant and vice versa?
Very likely AT has low oil. You check AT oil level w/ AT Hot in Park and Engine Running. But when AT "drops out of gear" need to add some just to drive so AT heats up. Add only 1 Pint or 0.5L (.473176) max to hopefully stop this, then drive then add more as needed.
AT Stick often has 2 holes at ~ full and add mark. One near Add should always see oil unless you need oil.
If can't read the stick... Pull out, spray w/ carb, brake cleaner or even 70% or higher alcohol, use a Sharpie type marker & "paint" full mark to tip of the part. Install, wait a few sec to a minute, them pull. AT Oil can wash away marker marks showing level. Micro Grams of Dry "Sharpie" won't be notice to the trans.
Red Color Can Fade over time. Brown Color isn't always "Burn oil" just dirty oil. "Burn Oil" Smell Burned as oil and friction parts burns, Dirty oil smell mostly same as new oil.
AT "Cooler" leaking in the Rad would push Coolant IN TO the Trans and "Destroy" the Trans. Because AT "Cooler" line has Near 0 PSI. Oil is "Waste" Oil return from Main pump and regulator and dump into the sump/pan. While Coolant system operates up to ~ 15 PSI.
AT "Cooler" lines and other areas can weep oil for weeks to months and never put a lot of oil on the "ground" while parking. ⚠️ Warning: If AT Rubber hoses are iffy, Replacement hoses must be rated for this job. Vacuum, Heater and Fuel hoses will not work.
Replacing Dirty Oil often won't cause problems but many replace oil on a dying trans and new oils may wash away crap holding it together. Sim to BS saying Syn Engine Oil cause Engine Leaks and/or burning oil. See my Cave, Automatic
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
So the transmission oil filter hasn't been changed in 20 years? YIKES! It's probably clogged. That would explain the bad behavior (i.e. low line pressure).
I would suggest doing a fluid and filter change, and re-evaluate.
Anyways, I can't think of a way that both the trans fluid cooler and the radiator itself would share a problem causing them both to loose fluid. If the trans fluid cooler was leaking, wouldn't trans fluid leak in the coolant and vice versa?
As theogre pointed out if it was an internal leak you WOULD have all sorts of coolant inside your transmission.
However i would still look for damage on the radiator especially on the driver's side where the ATF lines attach. An external object could have gotten kicked up and damaged the tank and the atf line resulting in minor external leaks.
My road debris causing a crack can also ring true for the coolant tubes or atf tubes. However I find it less likely for a coolant tube to crack and weep.
You have 2 problems that could be totally separate from each other. I just like to look at the things or parts, that are in common with problem areas.
Also, wrt reading the dipstick, yeah, they're a PITA. On mine, I drilled holes through the end at the "fill", "full", and inbetween ... just like an 1/8" or smaller hole. Your Dremel and a diamond burr can do the trick. The ATF generally gets in the hole if the fluid is to that level, but if the hole is see-through, you know it didn't reach that.
Alternately, I've seen folks deepen the scores across the "fill" and "full" lines (again, Dremel with a wheel) to make them easier to see.
Also, wrt reading the dipstick, yeah, they're a PITA. On mine, I drilled holes through the end at the "fill", "full", and inbetween ... just like an 1/8" or smaller hole. Your Dremel and a diamond burr can do the trick. The ATF generally gets in the hole if the fluid is to that level, but if the hole is see-through, you know it didn't reach that.
Alternately, I've seen folks deepen the scores across the "fill" and "full" lines (again, Dremel with a wheel) to make them easier to see.
-- A
I wipe the dipstick, put it back in the trans. Then I pull it, take a clean paper towel and rather than wipe the stick, I lay it flat on the paper towel. Lift the stick off a small amount and you'll see where the fluid ends.
I had a tranny fluid leak in one of the rubber hoses from the tranny to the side wall. It only would leak after the car had been running about 15 minutes. The way I figured it out was it was a pin leak and fluid would shoot out like a fountain and land exactly on the exhaust creating white smoke from the engine compartment when the fluid got hot. Now if you're not lucky like I was and it's just hitting the ground (and only while driving), you'd never know you had a hot hose leak. I'd replace them both if they're original hoses still.
2 points First. GM transmissions like to "swipe" fluid on the side of the dip stick from fluid lying in areas where the tube bends. If you turn the stick over with enough fluid on it, you get a bad read. Warm up, shut down, wait about 5 mins, start up idle. Dry stick. To help with fluid being in the tube, try to install and withdraw the stick as fast as possible. To the point of positioning the loop where it slides in the best. The quickness of it will cause the fluid to streak instead of wicking. On a dry stick, only the area that covers all the way across is the reading. That would be what is submerged.
Depending on how old the seal on the transmission filter is, could be sucking up air on right turns.
I was finally able to get a reading from the dip stick. The tip of the stick was barely covered. At the lowest line on the stick it said "Add 5L" or so I thought. It was early, I wasn't really awake yet and wasn't wearing my glasses so I pored in 4L of fluid... Then I when I wanted to check the level again, I finally put on my glasses and only then did I see it did not read "Add 5L" but "Add .5L".
For cyrin' out loud, why would you omit the zero when designing this dipstick? The dot is hardly visible.
That and the fact that of course I'm stupid .
Aaaaaanyway. 4L is about 4 Quarts and I know the entire system holds around 9 Quarts? Don't know how much really needed to be added if the oil barely touched the dip stick? Is it dangerous driving the car now? Can I ruin the transmission? Should I drain a few Quarts first?
I know the answer probably is going to be "yes, you need to drain the fluid".
So unless someone tells me that's not necessary, I was wondering if I could simply siphon out the excess fluid. Reason being I don't have a garage and everything needs to be done at the side of the road in the car's parking spot. On a public road that is. So if there's a shortcut, I'd take it.
I know the answer probably is going to be "yes, you need to drain the fluid".
So unless someone tells me that's not necessary, I was wondering if I could simply siphon out the excess fluid. Reason being I don't have a garage and everything needs to be done at the side of the road in the car's parking spot. On a public road that is. So if there's a shortcut, I'd take it.
There are siphon tools that you can use to pump the transmission fluid out of the dipstick tube but that doesn't fix a possible clogged filter that is 20 or 30 years old. As a first step you can try adding some fresh fluid and see what happens and always check the level when the engine is at operating temperature.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I went ahead an siphoned out slightly over 3 Quarts, so I have effectively added 1 Quart (which seemed about right, considering how low the level was). I then let the engine run idle (it was still hot from my trip this morning before I added the trans fluid). and checked it again. It still seemed low so I added another 1/2 Quart. The dipstick is terribly difficult to read but it looked like it was now okay. I took it for a drive and the phantom shifting is gone. After the drive I checked the level again and it still looked okay. But like I said, reading the dipstick is a pita but it's either still too low or just fine. At least it's not overfilled now.
I will recheck the level this afternoon when I have to make another trip.
Cliff, you could try this idea. I did it when I had a 2.8 but it'll work on any dipstick. White paint may show better but yellow was all I had at the time.
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
[This message has been edited by Spoon (edited 04-20-2021).]
Originally posted by RWDPLZ: For future reference: Most dipsticks, between the full and low marks, is 1 Quart.
⚠️ Only for Engine Oil. Not for GM and other AT units.
Many AT dip sticks are even Labeled "Add 1 Pint or 0.5L" (Full size is 2523x762 and is a Macro Pic of a 87 AT dip stick.)
CLICK FOR FULL SIZE
Fiero OM and says... Exact conversion is 1 pint = 0.473176
Note: If you drive a long time on a highway etc or have TCC problems then Oil can be Too Hot to check. OM and other says...
My above directions is add 1 pint of AT oil to a cold car until you read oil on the stick or be closer to Add zone when have above problem. In Fiero and similar... Fill cold to numbers in Add direction. (this includes refilling AT oil after changing or other work.) Depending how low could be 1 q/L or even more but only fill 1pint/0.5L then check. Should still read low but then safe enough to drive so can check and fill a hot trans.
Otherwise you overfill and cause other problems. Overfill can cause Oil Foaming and the trans will suck air w/ oil...
Why do you Check AT oil Hot w/ Engine Running? 2 reasons... ● Torque Converter etc will drain making the stick to read High to Very High w/ engine off. ● AT Oil expanse enough to change level to read on a stick. More so in cold weather.
Radiator AT "cooler" is not just for Cooling. It makes sure AT Oil get Hot enough and quickly in cool/cold weather and stays Hot. TCC active for a long time driving on a highway can allow oil to cool below operational temp w/o the Rad "cooler" heating the oil. But TCC that stays unlock in city driving or have problems can make the oil to "over heat" and "fake" the oil level is too high on the stick and have the Warning above in OM etc because of that.
Why is that? Torque Converters are the main Heat Generator for Auto Trans. "Newer" TC that have Lockup features Generate More Heat when unlock for any reason because you get more Torque Multiplier etc generating more Heat then "Old School" AT w/o Locking TC.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 04-21-2021).]
And yes, it's an archaic form of measurement. Americans simply refuse to let go of it.
Americans refuse to let go of the idea of a "quart" or "quarter"? Don't you have a looney quarter? It just means 1/4th. It has nothing to do with Imperial or metric unit. One can have a quarter of any unit obviously.
Besides the Imperial system makes 100x more sense than the metric one. A foot = you guessed it...it's about the size of an average man's foot. A yard is an average stride. An acre is the average amount of area a team of oxen could till in a day.
Now how practical is a meter? Ok so it's like 1/10000000th of the earths diameter? That's useful in every day life.
I will confess that Celcius is more logical than Fahrenheit but that's the exception.
Americans refuse to let go of the idea of a "quart" or "quarter"? Don't you have a looney quarter? It just means 1/4th. It has nothing to do with Imperial or metric unit. One can have a quarter of any unit obviously.
Besides the Imperial system makes 100x more sense than the metric one. A foot = you guessed it...it's about the size of an average man's foot. A yard is an average stride. An acre is the average amount of area a team of oxen could till in a day.
Now how practical is a meter? Ok so it's like 1/10000000th of the earths diameter? That's useful in every day life.
I will confess that Celcius is more logical than Fahrenheit but that's the exception.
This could start a whole another thread and has been covered many times. It's the scaling of the units that's important, especially in engineering. Can't really easily scale a foot to an inch to a yard, etc. While you can easily a milimeter to a meter, to a kilometer, etc. Yeah let's not go there.
[This message has been edited by cebix (edited 04-26-2021).]
Besides the Imperial system makes 100x more sense than the metric one. A foot = you guessed it...it's about the size of an average man's foot. A yard is an average stride. An acre is the average amount of area a team of oxen could till in a day.
Now how practical is a meter? Ok so it's like 1/10000000th of the earths diameter? That's useful in every day life.
I have to conclude that you were just kidding around, but if not...
(I wouldn't normally post the same image twice in a thread, but this particular discussion begs for it.)
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