So I have an electrical gremlin. Im fairly sure its my alarm at this point but im not 100%. I isolated my Amp as I was sure that was the issue. I could just have a bad batt as i have had issues from the start with this batt. I picked it up in Aug with the manufacturing date of April. While it should have been fine i got it home and had to charge it. Anyway im going to be taking it for warranty so lets skip that.
I don't drive all of my vehicles that often. So I was thinking well maybe i should just install a Batt switch or disconnect the terminals... That all seems like a pain for when i do actually want to go out. So I got to thinking after I saw some people with remote control batt disconnect switches that it would be nice just to have a physical switch. I also started looking at the different relays as I don't want one that's going to get hot if run for a few hours or kill the batt after being run for a few hours (with the car not running).
I found this TL-SSR – 12V / 100A DC UNIDIRECTIONAL SOLID STATE RELAY (SSR) Now honestly im really skeptical that this can do 100A. I dont think i really need 100A probably closer to 40A given how the power is distributed in the Fiero. However im not set on this unit.
Here is the original Battery Junction Diagram
Here is the modified diagram i have come up with to insert a relay of some sort.
I am switching ground as that's what the TL-SSR calls for. I have also added a relay so that as long as the car is in ACC or Run the Circuit stays (A CYA if you will). Basically i would put a switch somewhere discreet yet accessible (probably toggle and not momentary... Although momentary would help prevent the battery from being left on by accident. This comes with issues for emergency flashers and headlights... Trade offs) You flip the switch and go. I would probably run an independent hot wire to the Radio clock to save my presets. This is not shown in the diagrams.
Well there you have it. Was just interested on thoughts.
EDIT:
Iam aware for some reason this diagram is missing the ECU and i think a couple other wires going to the Distribution. I would probably keep the ECU hot for code storage and move everything that is NOT Batt and ALT to the cold side of the relay.
[This message has been edited by skywurz (edited 03-20-2021).]
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
I am switching ground as that's what the TL-SSR calls for.
means the *control wire* is ground == on, vs traditional relays where coil *positive* == on. At least I think that's what you mean.
I'm also suspicious of such a high current ability, but it's not so ridiculously expensive that you couldn't try it. But at least you're not cutting off everything, so the starter doesn't run through this, just the solenoid, which draws much less.
Also note you're approaching the creeping feature creature when you start thinking about extra features and wiring and such.
At least for diagnostic purposes, a big honking traditional battery switch might better serve you. A thought, anyway.
-- A
[This message has been edited by dremu (edited 03-20-2021).]
Originally posted by theogre: The starter draws 120A or more so "relay" above won't last long in that circuit.
GM Alt generate ~ 70 - 105 amps depending on Alt used. Aftermarket Alt's can make more.
This is correct starter and alt draw a lot of amps, and why i explicitly do not run these items through the relay.
quote
Originally posted by dremu:
You should prolly clarify that
means the *control wire* is ground == on, vs traditional relays where coil *positive* == on. At least I think that's what you mean.
Yes that is exactly what i mean. The control wire needs to be pulled down to ground in the unit i specified to turn it on (close the relay) where most of the time you switch positive for a normal relay.
I moved my battery up front but did not want big welding cable running next to gas tank (boom) so I installed a Ford style separate starter solenoid that actuates when you turn to start....Then ran a smaller AWG 8 wire to run the car. I ran all of these under the car in schedule 40 tubing for protection, and ran the AWG 8 power wire with the main ground wire.
I installed a kill switch up front on the main ground to the battery. I also installed a 40 amp fuse on the AWG 8 line; The theory is that if I high-center the car and damge those wires, as soon as the power wire hits ground the fuse will pop.....so the car doesn't......."POP!"
Here is a diagram of what I did (And it even worked the first time (Well, I haven't tested the "pop theory" yet.....)
[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 03-20-2021).]
I moved my battery up front but did not want big welding cable running next to gas tank (boom) so I installed a Ford style separate starter solenoid that actuates when you turn to start....Then ran a smaller AWG 8 wire to run the car. I ran all of these under the car in schedule 40 tubing for protection, and ran the AWG 8 power wire with the main ground wire.
I installed a kill switch up front on the main ground to the battery. I also installed a 40 amp fuse on the AWG 8 line; The theory is that if I high-center the car and damge those wires, as soon as the power wire hits ground the fuse will pop.....so the car doesn't......."POP!"
Here is a diagram of what I did (And it even worked the first time (Well, I haven't tested the "pop theory" yet.....)
Nice! So are you running dual solenoids? One by the batt and one on the starter?
Yes.....I left the original but the front one is just so that big "Welding wire" next to the fuel tank (Boom!) is not energized except during starting. And If I need to cut power I can just turn the key on the kill switch (Since the battery is buried under the spare tire (Which holds the battery in place)
Funny story; I was actually bragging about the location of the gas tank (in the center console) and how safe it was (Almost un-hittable) So of course, I had my comeuppance; On the way up to Trinity lake in 1987 on highway 299 I hit a piece of firewood- took out the airdam and the lower radiator support, then dinged the gas tank and lodged against the Cat....I had to jack the car up to get it out from under the car. When I got home I replaced the airdam and crossmember (Combined price from dealer; $27)
Exactly one year later, heading up to Trinity again, I was hearing a rattle in the exhaust- stopped at a dealer in Redding and when I explained what I was hearing the service rep immediately asked "Has your cat been hit?" Got home and ordered a new Cat......A week later "We have it- want to drop the car off Tomorrow?" To which I replied "No- 3 day weekend- I'll drop it off Monday" So on the way home the next day (Friday) the Cat clogged!
It gets better- the dealer wanted to replace the (Dinged) gas tank......SO a month later they told me the tank was in......"I'll wait until after the 3 day weekend!" (You would think I woulda learned my less-on.....)(The fuel pump died because the bottom of the tank was against the intake)
Final note; The Radiator that was on that cross member which was ripped off the frame....Is still working fine- no leaks! (I should go out tomorrow and mop up the (Coming) puddle of coolant...(Never learn...)
[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 03-20-2021).]
Oh just mop it up nothing. You have to be in the most inconvenience location. Then the plastic fill tank will let loose.
Im debating on moving the battery in the GT. The battery tray in the one i plan to keep is a bit rusty. I have also always said the Fiero could use at least an extra 50lbs over the front wheels.
I do like the second solenoid idea. Id probably run the cables the same path as the brake booster, through the cab. Just need to find one of those cars with the long cables at pick n pull. Probably also just DIY a box for the front.
I have the Archie's mounting box....He still sells it for $65.......http://www.v8archie.us/battery-tray-kit.html
My Battery weighs approx' 35 lbs... so that was almost a 1.5% weight shift forward...My stripper 85 SE V6 (2600 lbs) went from 42/58 to 43.5/56.5 weight distribution (I also removed the trunk blower)
After reread top... Discon battery completely or do nothing. Why?
If you leave somethings grounded and not others when discon part is active..... You can find more Sneak Path items and if you turn the key to Acc On or worse Start can Kill the ECM etc. Not all "grounds" in the car are power related. A Common one is covered here... Ground "Myth" notes But may try to be a power ground.
OE Starter Solenoid has heavy wire for a reason... GM S-solenoids use ~ 35 amps because is also pulling in the arm for the Bendix. Unlike Ford etc that just a big relay. If the Starter Motor tries to Run then can get even worse problems. If normal ground path isn't available then can and will find other weak path(s). Even the Coolant will be turn into a Ground return and that will cause big problems.
9v battery won't last long even just as backup power for the radio and ECM. All are make to handle "12v" and 9v is just over cutout volts for many power regulator circuits. Quick example: Many things use 7805 and related regulators that won't work w/ power source under ~ 2.5v above output volts. So standard 7805 5v reg needs ~ 7.5v min. 9v trick only really made for replacing a battery in a few hours max.
ECM will "lose" code data etc. w/o backup power so expect to have Idle problems until drive and relearn.
If the battery just backup a few items as does in a working Fiero and many others... Even drawing a few ma can kill them if not run in weeks to months. Worse in cold weather because can freeze a low battery very easy. I tried to drive my cars every week. If I can't drive then check and charge the batteries so won't freeze.
I have the Archie's mounting box....He still sells it for $65.......http://www.v8archie.us/battery-tray-kit.html
My Battery weighs approx' 35 lbs... so that was almost a 1.5% weight shift forward...My stripper 85 SE V6 (2600 lbs) went from 42/58 to 43.5/56.5 weight distribution (I also removed the trunk blower)
Yeah I know he still has them. But I think i can make a steel framed one for less and faster. Looking at other posts I think i could make an L iron frame quite easily. Then line it with abs sheet stock. This should give me some good rigidity and prevent shorts if I decide to stick my terminals out by the front by the radiator. But I also like over engineering things (code for making things way more complicated and harder on my self than they really need to be)
quote
Originally posted by theogre:
After reread top... Discon battery completely or do nothing. Why?
If you leave somethings grounded and not others when discon part is active..... You can find more Sneak Path items and if you turn the key to Acc On or worse Start can Kill the ECM etc. Not all "grounds" in the car are power related. A Common one is covered here... Ground "Myth" notes But may try to be a power ground.
OE Starter Solenoid has heavy wire for a reason... GM S-solenoids use ~ 35 amps because is also pulling in the arm for the Bendix. Unlike Ford etc that just a big relay. If the Starter Motor tries to Run then can get even worse problems. If normal ground path isn't available then can and will find other weak path(s). Even the Coolant will be turn into a Ground return and that will cause big problems.
9v battery won't last long even just as backup power for the radio and ECM. All are make to handle "12v" and 9v is just over cutout volts for many power regulator circuits. Quick example: Many things use 7805 and related regulators that won't work w/ power source under ~ 2.5v above output volts. So standard 7805 5v reg needs ~ 7.5v min. 9v trick only really made for replacing a battery in a few hours max.
ECM will "lose" code data etc. w/o backup power so expect to have Idle problems until drive and relearn.
If the battery just backup a few items as does in a working Fiero and many others... Even drawing a few ma can kill them if not run in weeks to months. Worse in cold weather because can freeze a low battery very easy. I tried to drive my cars every week. If I can't drive then check and charge the batteries so won't freeze.
Good points. I had previously read your "Sneak Path" this is one of the reasons im switching positive + and not ground -.
As you also point out and I had noted in my edit above before the thread took off. I could put the ECU and Radio on the hot side and not switch it off to preserve codes and presets. However as you have also pointed out these too are drains on the batt worth notation. I will probably pick up one of the tools you suggested to get a current read so i can do some math on the amount of draw taking place. If its over 40ma its probably not worth it to me as it will drain the batt to a damaging level in about a month.
I also am worried about the water proofing for a relay in the original battery location. This is all looking more feasible/better idea with a batt relocation.
There has also been a slight thought of added security behind this. As i mentioned i have an alarm and it does kill the starter however mid level thieves have been getting around this for years already. Its good at preventing the casual joy rider. (I also probably need to replace my alarm as when its set it kills my battery in 2 days.) I have also been working on an Arduino based tracker that is a fork of my moto tracker https://skywurz.com/node/100 seen here (there is a demo there i need to fix my url colors). The car version does not have the lipo battery like the bike version does. It has to use a different modem for this. I feared the internal temps of the car with the batt as well as i already don't like them on the bikes. The second thing is they are more passive they do not get power until the ignition is on (Unlike the bikes where they have a sock sensor that texts me. ).
ECM Standby Power is Fusible Link F to + box under C500, Not a Fuse. ECM Fuse is Main Power to ECM and completely Off w/ I-Key Off. Radio Standby Power is BATT fuse and problem there covered in sneak path page.
Relays and other parts not made for this job can't just be DIY "water proofed" and last in the engine bay etc. + many sold thru Eflay amzn etc are "fakes" and data listed or on the part isn't actuate at best. Even UL and other marks are often fakes. Worse, when they go sideways, they often burn slowly causing Low Volt problems that can fry other E-parts covered in Electric Motors If they cook fast, can cause a fire and never blow a fuse or fusible link like CP burn up Gen2 module and motors after "fixing" the module. ( https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...130314-2-095675.html )
Even if you buy a good one from Digikey etc... It likely hates Engine Bay Temps. Relay Coils Generate heat and can't get rid of that in hot areas, more so w/ bay heat reaches 200+°F easy.
I wouldn't even recommend many Discon parts made this job because of lid venting allows rains snow etc on nearly everything there.
Even if you buy a good one from Digikey etc... It likely hates Engine Bay Temps. Relay Coils Generate heat and can't get rid of that in hot areas, more so w/ bay heat reaches 200+°F easy.
Crud you are right I spaced the Engine heat. For some reason i was only thinking ambient. That cheesy unit says its good for 185F.
The other thing about DIY weather proofing is the lack of heat disbursement. I also agree that sticking just about any electrical component including discon parts made for the job in that area is a bad idea. This all means this is probably a better idea for if the batt is moved up front... I mean i guess i could punch the stuff into the trunk but for some reason i really hate that idea.
Many engine bays are hotter then Fiero on same roads and in same weather but all "consumer" to "hospital" grade parts won't last long in there even if you can find "water proof" parts. ICM etc are Automotive Grade, Sim to Military Grade/Spec, to survive the heat. Mil Spec parts are really real and often Expensive and often Rare. Many Mil Spec parts are made to fit 1 thing and that thing is often a "limited release" item. An "easy" example: You can still find 7400 family logic chips... Many 74 PN have/had a 54 PN that's the Mil Spec version and cost 2x to 10x the price of 74 series. Most time you see Auto Grade or Mil Spec on a box is BS. ACDelco and most others won't bother advertising that to normal retail buyers. (Is also why many in IT world Hate hearing VPN etc has "Military Grade" Encryption.)
"They" make Battery Discon parts for Racing etc. but many of those don't last long. Many Race Org's require them to kill power in a wreck and don't care about that. "They" make parts for Tow operators too like Heavy Plugs for Jumper Cables. Depending how installed and where truck "lives" often the truck side plug is in bad shape after 1 or 2 winters. Anything exposed to road salt or salt spay near the ocean doesn't last w/o a lot of help...
Fiero vents are why for cleaning ground bolted to engine and related I tell all to coat w/ brake or silicone grease. Permatex Brake grease is better and harder for "water" getting in the joint. Is very hard to washout unless maybe hit a joint directly w/ power washer.
I used either other vehicles too but Fiero need this badly in engine bay and near HL. G101 & G102 and the "frame" can rot starting w/ the hole for the screw to attach them. I had to drill a new hole for G102 because rust made the metal too weak to use again.
Is why I use better spark plugs too. "Double Platinum" is nice for DIS engine but main point is Shell is Nickle coated or otherwise won't rust in months.
Want an effective "no start" anti-theft switch locate the wire coming from the ignition switch. Cut in and insert a HD switch inline. Hide it under the dash. Or for manual splice into the leads on your clutch safety switch and put a switch in that circuit. When either of those switches are turned off it will not be possible to start the car.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
