Lou and Blue has a 3800sc that is only getting OIL to the Right bank (rear of car) not the oil passage (under the window) for the LIFTERS. I do not have a picture of a Bare 3800 block (anyone got one ?) showing if there a PLUG on "either side" of the camshaft (Front and REAR) like on a small block chevy ? is there any other reason that it would only get oil to the 1 bank of Lifters and not the other ?? Thanks
Never experienced a problem like this. I assume that the oil pressure was already measured and is OK. It is common for oil passages to have plugs at the ends of the block. Let me check the shop manual and see if there is any info there.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I have been constantly asking him to check the "pressure" with a Mechanical gauge. Has not yet happened. dash gauge reads 40. He told me the pushrods are shooting oil in the bank at the back of the car, but absolutely Nothing at the bank under the window. He posted a Video with sound and it's definitely Valve noise. he already replaced Lifters and pushrods (I believe an unneeded expense). from the picture, it looks like the rear bank gets the oil first, so if a plug came out the front bank would get nothing. any OTHER explanation would be greatly welcome. thanks
I use to rebuild engines but have found that it is not economically advantageous to do so and have no experience rebuilding a 3800. There ARE oil gallery plugs on a 3800 engine as the manual reads a torque spec on them of 25 ft lbs. If one is missing it can starve the lifter bank, BUT we do not know if they are missing. If the oil pressure gauge reads 40 psi and if that is confirmed as accurate the oil pump may be pumping insufficiently or an oil gallery plug could be missing. Lou did say that the engine was rebuilt so it is entirely possible that a gallery plug was omitted. Let me do more research on the location of the plugs but they are usually on the front and backside. We could be on the right track but if the plugs are the problem, the engine must come out to fix it. Lou D probably doesn't want to hear this so lets dig into this further and explore all causes.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
other gm blocks have a barbell fitting back there. if it's not in place it causes issues like this. also i would check out the check valve behind the filter.
it as not mentioned to me that it had been rebuilt. it had been sitting on a garage floor after being removed from a car that got scrapped. the oil filter adapter was taken off and the piston and spring replaced, the rear cover was taken off to replace the rear seal and the lifters and pushrods, and rocker Bolts were replaced because of the clattering. Does a 3800 have "screw in" or "press in" plugs for the lifter galleries ?
Thank you all for your continued help in this! I didnt have much time to devote to the car recently so i havent installed that oil pressure guage yet and i apologize with the frustration regarding that. I swapped in new pushrods yesterday and running the engine with the valve covers off allowed me to verify the total absence of oil coming up the entire frirewall side rocker bank. As far as the 'rebuild' it was only me changing the lim and sc gaskets and lifters and reAr main seal. I have never heard the engine run before i put it in my fiero. It has been tapping for all of my experience. I had not removed the front timing cover, only the sc lim and rear main plate. Thank you all again. I dont think i will attempt a rebuild, just hopefully repair the oil pump, or these plugs that are now suspect.
Louis
[This message has been edited by Lou and Blue (edited 09-13-2015).]
If the engine was never rebuilt then I believe that its unlikely that an oil gallery plug is missing. Those plugs are usually removed to get a cleaning brush in there and then put back. I cannot imagine that they can just fall out but anything is possible. This leads me back to the oil pump as suspect. When Lou has a chance to measure the pressure we will know. Low oil pressure could cause oil starvation as the oil flow needs to circle the oil galleries. Low pressure = less oil flow and the gallery first in line for the oil gets the supply. My uneducated guess at this point is the oil pump.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Thanks again guys ! If it is the oil pump, then I'd have to remove the timing cover to repair it right? I'm just wondering if I can do that while the engine is still in the car, instead of having to drop the cradle.
But I still am flabbergasted about why the noise silenced and came back in two drives with the rislone. I drive it a lot after the noise returned and i still have the rislone in there and its still not any getting oil on the firewall rocker bank.
[This message has been edited by Lou and Blue (edited 09-13-2015).]
Dennis, Might he Not" find out "a lot if he just drops the oil that's in it and puts in straight 30 W oil ? right now its 5-40 with Risoline and Marvel (very thin). Won't "fix" it, but may pick up enough pressure to find out IF it's the pump ???? cheap and easy?
Dennis, Might he Not" find out "a lot if he just drops the oil that's in it and puts in straight 30 W oil ? right now its 5-40 with Risoline and Marvel (very thin). Won't "fix" it, but may pick up enough pressure to find out IF it's the pump ???? cheap and easy?
Lous OEM gauge reads 40 psi. From my experience, the OEM gauges nearly pin with an 88 sensor and the stock Fiero gauge on a 3800 engine. Regular heavy dino straight 40W oil might raise the pressure a bit but if the pressure valve in the pump is bad it might not. The easiest way is to just measure the pressure with a mechanical gauge at the sensor fitting. Almost any 100 psi rated pressure gauge should work for a reading. Something like a compression gauge should work fine too.I guess Lou could change the oil but he would have to buy all new oil.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
brings up something else. you say the pressure valve in the pump...... Is the a pressure valve in the pump itself ?? OR is it the Valve where the Oil Filter Housing bolts On ? Because, he DID have the Valve and Spring OUT. I asked, he told me it's IN " according to the Book". That's the 1st thing I thought of. But the Risoline getting rid of the noise for a few minutes, can't really figure That One. * The engine had the Housing and Valve/Spring out, the Lifters changed and the rocker Bolts Changed, BEFORE it ever got started.* not my engine, but I'm very interested as to What will be found to be the culprit.
I'm getting ready to put my engine back together, and in doing my research I came across some folks who had some issues with the pressure relief piston getting stuck to the Oil Filter Adapter Cover due to too much RTV on the gaskets. Don't know what issue that might cause regarding the Oil Pressure ( high or low), but thought I would mention it.
------------------ '87 GT in process, including GA / Seville brakes, Poly Suspension, '95 3800 Series 1 SC ( 225 hp ) T460e.
Since I did remove and replace the rear main seal cover plate I was just informed that if I put that gasket on backwards it can cause no oil to one side lifter valley. Still doesnt explain how the noise silenced and then returned but it does mean I have to yank the engine cradle out and remove the engine from tranny and get behind the flywheel to replace that gasket, making sure i put it on in the correct orientation. Still thinking of running ATF/lacquer thinner mix to flush and hopefully clear the oil passages first, a clogged passage makes sense with the whole silencing and returning noise thing that's got everyone stumped.
------------------ Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "It's a beautiful world, everyone's insane. Either you swim, either you fade. It's a revolution time, we're sleeping at the wheel. Apocalypse child, in a nuclear field." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12, VIN #5835, Stock PRV engine, Peugot 604 Intake manifold, Exhaust headers, Anti-3rd brake light
I'd like to try a much stronger solvent before pulling the engine out. A clogged oil passage would explain the silencing with rislone, but a missing plug or a gasket installed backwards doesnt explain that. I'm not throwing away anyone's ideas or advice here, but the fact that it was silenced and came back puts an image in my head of junk clogging the oil passage. ATF and Acetone then? Wadda ya say ?
I have. A friend who used 3 quarts cheap oil, one quart ATF and one quart acetone and he said it worked wonders in his Delorean engine . I'd like to use more solvent or a more aggressive solvent.
OK, but keep in mind, the Stronger the Solvent, the more friction, the LESS LUBRICATION. if there's something in there blocking it up, and Everything you've dumped in it so far didn't break it loose....... . I think you blocked off the passage in the back of the block with the gasket. You will surely have a Clean engine, But you May not have any Bearings left. Good luck.
I just can't see how it was temporarily silenced if its something blocking it from the start. I just can't get past that. And I don't want to take it all out and find that the gasket was in fine just like the spring and check valve were At the oil filter adapter, alhough obviously that was a much less entailed job. I'd be getting it ready for removal if I didnt hear it silence for that short while that day. That's just tells me soemthing is clogged somewhere , when I broke off the rocker bolt and tried to weld a nut on I could hear the splatter sizzling so that means there was a little bit it oil getting up there at least.(I removed the splatter balls with a magnet(hope No nearby intake valves were open)) That was before the rislone. Then that magical day after the rislone it silenced and sounded awesome for about a half hour and then on the next ride after shutting down the rattle started up again and got real bad . And now I see no oil at all pumping up in firewall side. That was always the rAttly side but it silenced for that momentary lapse of reason. Just seems lien stuff got all clogged in the passage from the left to right side and I'm hoping to dissolve it like the resilone did. That's the reason why I'm not running to haul it out. I also only have a driveway , no garage. Thanks again and I will update with any info.
I got the guage but life gets in the way, especially with 3 children.
I am going to try the 2 Q 50w oil 2Q ATF and 1Q acetone and drive it for about 40-50 miles and then Do the oil change and I hope that will unclog the oil passages finally.
If I have low oil pressure I may just run heavy weight oil until I can change or repair the oil pump next spring or just use the heavy weight oil from now on.
------------------ Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "It's a beautiful world, everyone's insane. Either you swim, either you fade. It's a revolution time, we're sleeping at the wheel. Apocalypse child, in a nuclear field." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12, VIN #5835, Stock PRV engine, Peugot 604 Intake manifold, Exhaust headers, Anti-3rd brake light
[This message has been edited by Lou and Blue (edited 09-22-2015).]
I got the guage but life gets in the way, especially with 3 children.
I am going to try the 2 Q 50w oil 2Q ATF and 1Q acetone and drive it for about 40-50 miles and then Do the oil change and I hope that will unclog the oil passages finally.
If I have low oil pressure I may just run heavy weight oil until I can change or repair the oil pump next spring or just use the heavy weight oil from now on.
If you drive 40-50 miles with no oil in one cylinder bank you WILL do damage. IMO, I would never use a thinned oil mixture using acetone. You will wash down the cylinder walls and open them up to wear and scoring. When I was younger and didn't know better I drove an old Dodge with a qt of motor flush added to the oil for a short while, the bores wore and cylinder leakage occurred . Its your car and I do not mean to tell you what to do but it sure sounds like you pin pointed the problem with the gasket earlier.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Sorry for the lack of communication but my car is still sitting in the driveway. I havent had the chance to do anything at all. I have the oil pressure gauge I have the brass T and I am ready to do my acetone flush, but life with three kids doesn't always lend time to working on my cars. Besides, the last few days have been devoted to preparing my home for the possible hurricane , which thankfully directed itself out to sea. My house was structurally destroyed in Hurricane Sandy and took over a year to rebuild so i take these storm threats VERY seriously. Once this nor'easter is gone I will try the flush and install the gauge and post back.
------------------ Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "I spread my wings, I try to fly. I believed in myself when there was nothing right. I know I'm dust and oh, we are sand. But we give of ourselves, as best as we can." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12, VIN #5835, Stock PRV engine, Peugot 604 Intake manifold, Exhaust headers, Anti-3rd brake light
[This message has been edited by Lou and Blue (edited 10-03-2015).]
I did the 2quart 40weigjht oil, 2 quart ATF (pennzoil brand) and 1 quart acetone motor flush today and drove the car about 7 miles with it in the engine. Sad to say the tapping noise did not go away . I then did an oil change and the atf /oil/acetone mix came out red and clear. I put in 10w40, mobil regular . I then installed a mechanical gauge and i have 60 psi at idle and higher when revved. The gauge on the dashboard reads exactly the same as the mechanical gauge.
Dropping the cradle to check and change the rear main seal cover gasket will probably have to wait until spring. I have no garage. Just an open driveway.
[This message has been edited by Lou and Blue (edited 10-03-2015).]
sad to say, I'm betting it MUST be something you did BEFORE installing the engine. Rear Gasket..? what else did you do? The lifters only go in 1 way as far as I can remember. rocker bolts wouldn't have anything to do with it. pushrods (as long as they are open one end to the other) will have no affect. with 60 PSI, I'd say something to that Particular oil gallery has to be "Shut off". and there's nothing else I can think of besides that rear gasket. if the FRONT plug fell out the oil pressure would be lower. If you had NOT had the rear cover off, it would rule that out, but it Was Off, so.... I'm not sure why you would be "able" to install it backward without actually Looking at a rear cover and a gasket. (usually they only Fit 1 way) I've looked on the internet and the Passageway for that Lifter bank "Appears" to be fed THROUGH the Rear Cover. The only thing you Can be SURE OF, is that driving it like that is No good for it.
Yeah, I won't be drivin it anymore until I fix it. I have to research the rear cover and the rear gasket and see if I could have put it in backwards. But if you say that lifter galley is fed through the rear plate then that's a big suspect. Thank you to all who chimed in.
------------------ Louis Duet --- Baldwin, Long Island, NY "I spread my wings, I try to fly. I believed in myself when there was nothing right. I know I'm dust and oh, we are sand. But we give of ourselves, as best as we can." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12, VIN #5835, Stock PRV engine, Peugot 604 Intake manifold, Exhaust headers, Anti-3rd brake light
"Looking at this rear cover gasket i just dont see how it could be put on backwards. everything is symmetrical hole wize, except for what looks like the balance shaft oil hole. http://zzperformance.com/38...ar-cover-gasket.html If my rear cover gasket isnt instslled backeards, what else could be starving the right side lifters of oil? Ryan says to install the gasket on the cover both ways and only one way will allow the oil passages to be clear, does anyone have a rear cover they can snap some photos of and send me?
Thanks!
I am hesitating pulling the engine back out but i guess if acetone didnt clear the passages ill have to physically clear them out.
------------------
[This message has been edited by Lou and Blue (edited 10-06-2015).]
Been looking all over the internet for a PIC of the" rear plate", can't find one. But the picture of the "seal" clearly Shows a passageway on the "left side" and not the right. so without seeing the actual Plate, it's hard to tell. wish now that I hadn't thrown out the 2 bad 3800s that were here, I'd tear into one to find out ! Still sounds like a good bet on the backwards gasket.
Per 1998 Buick service manual. the Oil Supply goes up the Oil pickup tube to the Oil pump, then to the filter, then to the passenger side of the engines(right side if you are on top of the engine facing the front) Lifter Gallery. then at the same time is fed to the Crank bearings AND the Drivers Side LIFTER Gallery -.> THROUGH THE REAR COVER. your oil is getting TO the rear cover , but not through it. * Page 6A-139 of the Buick service Manual.* with 3800 cutaway diagram
When you say from the filter to the right side , is that looking at the engine or standing behind it? The right side of the engine when lookin at the front is the firewall side when installed in a Fiero which is the side I am not getting oil to. On the 3800pro.com forum there is a thread about the rear cover plate gasket orientation and two people seem to say two different Things. I wish I could register for that site but I keep getting. A blank screen when trying to register there. I emailed the webmaster but got no reply. Here is the link to that thread :
the oil goes from the filter to the side that you ARE getting oil to, then goes through that gallery to the plate on back, then across to the passage that you are NOT getting oil. the only thing in that sequence that could stop the flow is the gasket or the plate. since the PLATE remained the same, that only leaves the gasket.
Got it! She's gonna come back out either this fall or in the early spring. Hopefully the gasket is in backwards and it'll be a quick driveway repair and back in.
Ok , sorry but I've been asking around so much . Here's the rundown: 1996 bonneville 3800sc (series 2) - bought the engine with 100k miles on it and I replaced the lim gasket with the zzp aluminum gasket and also did water pump, replaced rear main seal and cover plate gasket, put a 99 Grand Prix oil filter adapter on with the spring and check valve correctly. Also replaced lifters which were primed (soaked over night in oil and pumped before install) And also installed new pushrods. When running the engine I get 60 psi at idle so the oil pump is ok but only the pushrods on the alternator side of the engine are getting oil squirting up and the pushrods on the ac compressor side of the engine are completely dry. I tried motor flush and then rislone and the second drive with rislone the horrible tapping sound silenced and then came right back on the next drive. Thinking I had a clogged oil passage I tried valve medic and marvel Mystery oil but the rattlly tapping is still loud and noisy (no oil to that ac comp side valve train) . So I did a 5-7 mile drive with 2quarts 40weight oil, 2 quarts ATF, and 1 quart acetone. The rattle is still as loud as ever meaning no oil to that side. First I was told I prob have the rear main seal cover plate gasket on backwards preventing oil to that lifter bay.but then I read and see by the gaskets appearance that if that happened it would only be the balance shaft that would be starved oil . Now I am getting info about a dual check valve oil filter adapter that was needed and that that could be starving the ac compr side Lifters oil. I'd rather not have to pull the engine out and take it off the tranny just to find out that the gasket for the rear main seal cover was ok to begin with. Is there such an oil filter adapter with dual check valves? Please help!!! (Oh and thanks for reading this whole thing) Louis
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