Bought an MSD distributor cap and rotor from The Fiero Store for my Formula. Never even made it out of my driveway tonight. The car was running well with the old BWD (Borg-Warner) cap and rotor. The MSD parts made the tacho needle jump. The car stalled and backfired and wouldn't run. I reinstalled the old cap and rotor and she was fine.
The MSD parts are made in China and cost MORE than the BWD components.
Maybe I just got unlucky and got bad parts. But I am keeping Chinese junk off my car if possible.
I bought 2 MSD cap and rotors from TFS. Didn't open or install them yet. Maybe I'll have to check this out before I install them. Yes, the package says Made in China.
Thanks for the heads up. Chinese made parts....bastards.
With ALL caps now, you have to look inside to see if the pins are crooked, I have seen it with every different brand. Not a thing to buy online as you can't check it until you get it.
1. BWD is Borg Warner? I literally had no idea. 2. I was just looking at caps & rotors for my '99 Suburban (Vortec 350) and was about to pull the trigger on MSD parts when I found a thread on a GM truck forum *littered* with complaints about MSD tuneup parts. Universal opinion was AVOID.
I found a thread on a GM truck forum *littered* with complaints about MSD tuneup parts. Universal opinion was AVOID.
I wonder what people expect to gain by using an MSD distributor cap? Is it because they're red? There are other red ones out there. Is it because of the brass terminals? Again, other options. I have the Wells "Gold" distributor cap in my car and its BOTH red and has brass terminals. And its made right here in America Mexico and not China. Works for me.
I can see where brand names matter in other items (sensors, modules, etc) but distributor caps? I am skeptical.
Normally when you buy an MSD product you think your getting a better item than OEM or a performance replacement. I guess not anymore.
I can't understand why these CEOs of these companies elect to have a performance brand known for many, many years with proven track records and quality. Then they change everything over to have their products made over seas...which is China. We get screwed over, and after that they get screwed over because nobody wants their product. Some folks will keep buying because its cheap in cost. Its not cheap in the long run. How about paying 80$ for a towing bill because you were too cheap to buy a quality part. Your in the hole by choosing cheap parts.
If this is the case, MSD better clean up their act. I'll be changing my cap and rotor to something else. This thread will be followed by myself after installing my new cap and rotor. Its a good thing folks speaking up about the product they buy and share info in the quality. I see in the near future than US companies will be transferring back their manafacturing duties / operations back home here in the USA. Create jobs for north America and getting the quality control under control.
Originally posted by css9450: I wonder what people expect to gain by using an MSD distributor cap? Is it because they're red? There are other red ones out there. Is it because of the brass terminals? Again, other options. I have the Wells "Gold" distributor cap in my car and its BOTH red and has brass terminals. And its made right here in America Mexico and not China. Works for me.
I can see where brand names matter in other items (sensors, modules, etc) but distributor caps? I am skeptical.
People buy MSD caps because they recognize the MSD name from all the racing components they make, and which are commonly used. I guess they think it will make them feel more like a race car because there strips of brass in a plastic shroud that comes in a box with MSD in big letters on it.
I'm actually interested in why people are having problems with them though. From what I've seen, people buy them, complain they don't work, see "China" somewhere on the box, and then attribute it to that, rather than understanding the actual problem. Are they just not working because people are using them on OEM setups, and the caps are designed for higher energy ignition systems, with a different gap between the pickup or such? A larger gap is fine on a higher energy system than the stock Fiero has, but on the OEM internals, and with OEM coil, will probably result in a lack of spark, or not enough to run properly.
Originally posted by dobey: People buy MSD caps because they recognize the MSD name from all the racing components they make, and which are commonly used. I guess they think it will make them feel more like a race car because there strips of brass in a plastic shroud that comes in a box with MSD in big letters on it.
I can't speak for others, but I was looking at them because I was broadly dissatisfied with what rockauto had available, I don't trust any of the store brands from Autozone et al, and I was on Summit's site to see what they had. MSD just came up on the list so I looked into it.
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I'm actually interested in why people are having problems with them though. From what I've seen, people buy them, complain they don't work, see "China" somewhere on the box, and then attribute it to that, rather than understanding the actual problem. Are they just not working because people are using them on OEM setups, and the caps are designed for higher energy ignition systems, with a different gap between the pickup or such? A larger gap is fine on a higher energy system than the stock Fiero has, but on the OEM internals, and with OEM coil, will probably result in a lack of spark, or not enough to run properly.
From what I read, there was no clear reason, but how much effort are you going to put into researching the failure of a brand new $30 part when there are alternatives that do work (Delco or Delphi) available? Based on problem descriptions, my guess is the gap between the rotor and cap is probably too large. I've experienced that on other cars, especially when mixing cap & rotor brands. It's totally possible the stories I read were the result of exactly that, but I don't know and didn't care to find out. I bought a Delphi pair, works great. It's possible the MSD combo is designed to work with higher-energy systems, but it seems that should be noted on the packaging rather than suggesting the part is an OE replacement. I think it's far more likely "MSD ignition parts" are just lowest-bidder BS being sold under a reputable name for max profits. 60% of the time it works every time!
It's worth noting that the forums I read (exclusively truck forums) were also highly critical of MSD plug wires. I bought Taylor wires based on a recommendation, we'll see how they work out with the Delphi dizzy parts this weekend. They seem well made and the angled boots have a nice relief to yank on.
Are they just not working because people are using them on OEM setups, and the caps are designed for higher energy ignition systems, with a different gap between the pickup or such?
I remember when I first joined here, people were using the MSD caps for the 4.3 V6 on their Fieros, because they didn't make one for the 2.8. I still don't see one on MSD's site for the 2.8. I wonder what the difference is? I recall from my days of having an S-10 pickup, the rotors were not interchangeable; perhaps the caps are different as well, even if only slightly. Maybe Fiero Store is selling the 4.3 distributor cap with a rotor that belongs on a 2.8 and there is some dimensional discrepancy that is giving the OP some issues.
Originally posted by thesameguy: From what I read, there was no clear reason, but how much effort are you going to put into researching the failure of a brand new $30 part when there are alternatives that do work (Delco or Delphi) available?
Well, if you're going to take the effort to join a forum and make a post in the technical discussion section about how crappy the parts are, I'd hope you'd be willing to actually discover what the actual problem is, rather than just bitching about China and "cheap crap." It's presumptive and hypocritical (cheap crap and bad parts come from the US plenty too), and only results in yet another thread that doesn't provide any actual useful data, in the technical session, which will quickly devolve into a rally of the troops crying "yeah, **** China!"
Is it really too much to want to keep the technical section technical, and keep the political self-righteousness in O/T where it belongs?
If I bought something as simple as a cap/rotor from MSD, and it didn't work properly, I'd certainly try to understand why, even if it is only a $30 part. And if I was going to share my experience on a forum in a technical section, I'd certainly want to provide factual information that would actually help people.
Just a hunch, but maybe if you changed your ignition to ALL MSD parts, everything would work great. If your coil has four times the voltage of stock, I can imagine the rotor, cap, wires, plugs, and who knows what else would have to support it. It seems as though the recommended spark plug gap would be different.
It's sad that the quality parts are made in Mexico. After having 4 dist caps go bad on my GMC within 6 mos., I started checking where they were made not who made them. The failed ones were China, the last one was Mexico and that one is still working 2yrs later.
Who says it "belongs" there either? Political rhetoric/BS wears thin awfully fast no matter where it's posted.
Well, it's not up to me, since I don't run the forum (otherwise I wouldn't have O/T in the first place). But the forum rules say that if such things are to be posted anywhere on this forum, that's the most appropriate (it's the place for it to be, at least before it ends up in the trash can, seeing as how it's off topic). Sadly, that's pretty much all O/T is now. I guess that's what happens when you've got one moderator, who doesn't have the time to actively moderate the forum.
But again, that's getting off topic. I just want to see some concrete evidence about what is actually so bad about the MSD parts that TFS sells.
Originally posted by dobey: Well, if you're going to take the effort to join a forum and make a post in the technical discussion section about how crappy the parts are, I'd hope you'd be willing to actually discover what the actual problem is, rather than just bitching about China and "cheap crap." It's presumptive and hypocritical (cheap crap and bad parts come from the US plenty too), and only results in yet another thread that doesn't provide any actual useful data, in the technical session, which will quickly devolve into a rally of the troops crying "yeah, **** China!"
Sure can't hate on that. I'm quite tired of the "Made in China, must be bad" rally cry too. When I was a kid everyone hated "Made in Taiwan." At some point it was hating on "Made in Mexico." I don't care where a thing is from, functionality is the measure of a product, not origin.
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If I bought something as simple as a cap/rotor from MSD, and it didn't work properly, I'd certainly try to understand why, even if it is only a $30 part. And if I was going to share my experience on a forum in a technical section, I'd certainly want to provide factual information that would actually help people.
If there was a functional way to do a non-destructive test I certainly would, but it's research for research's sake at the expense of not getting my money back, I'd check out too.
I'm not saying everything made in China is junk, however after having 4 made in China caps fail within 6mos. and a made in Mexico one still running after 2yrs. you know I won't buy another one made in China.
I agree, the made in china origin isn't the problem, so much as that, after you have repeated issues with the products from there, you eventually have had enough. It's one thing to buy a bucket of coins for $12, looking for a particular coin. It's quite another thing to go through 7 or 8 relays, ICMs, sway bars, and starters. I'm back to the original equipment. Take Levis jeans. Mine made in the USA have lasted for 20 years, but those made in China last for 1 year, at best.
Parts are made to a spec. If the spec is poor, the resultant part will be too. One of the engineering marvels of the modern age is the iPhone. It's made in China, to a very high spec. "Levis Jeans made in China" are made to a very low spec to compete with cheap jeans from Old Navy and what have you. It has nothing to do with an entire nation's inability to make good jeans, but rather the Levis Jeans company losing buckets of money to Old Navy and deciding the way to compete with that is mimic the cheap product.
I have a problem with parts made to a cheap spec. House brands from major auto parts stores are made to a cheap spec. Autozone doesn't own factories. They publish a spec, send out an RFP, and choose the lowest bidder. They back their cheap part with a crazy warranty figuring few people will ever cash in on the warranty and that's that. Making it worse is that House Brand in January may yield a totally different part than House Brand in December, because the lowest bidding manufacturer changed in the middle. That's why I don't buy house brands. I want to know what I'm getting. (Napa is kind of a different story, since they do a lot of business with jobbers and mechanics really don't like comebacks as they eat the labor. But Napa also sells two or three varieties of every part, from the cheap "at your own risk" stuff to the "this is as good as it gets stuff.")
Actually, I need to modify my earlier statement. I don't like parts made to a deceptive spec. The "premium red part" that is sold at premium prices but built to lowest bidder spec irks the crap out of me. Sometimes I buy cheap parts. Sometimes I don't care if it fails in short order, sometimes I just need it to work now, and sometimes the difficulty of the job or the importance of the part doesn't justify paying a premium price for a lifetime part. I like the option. I don't like being deceived. If one part is $5 and the other $50, I want to know what +$45 buys me, and I don't want the $50 part to last a month. Just from reading - no experience - the MSD stuff *seems* to fit that bill. For the most part, though, nobody is confusing a $10 Duralast part with a $30 Delphi part. If you spend $10 and end up fuming over a Made in China label, well, that's on you. You bought a part made to a garbage spec. That's walking into the Hyundai dealership when you want a new BMW. :P
Don't confuse made to be cheap with an inability to make something good. GM sold lots and lots of Chevettes. It doesn't make the Fiero a bad car. See what I did there?
BTW, Summit lists the fiero 2.8L cap & rotor under the same part number as the 4.3 GM distributors. #8430
Interesting! I hadn't tried Summit; I was looking at Jegs as well as MSD's own site which both list the 8430 as being for the 4.3 with no mention of the 2.8. One of life's little mysteries I guess. Obviously it works though but not for the OP. I'd still be inclined to suspect something isn't fitting like it should - maybe he has a reman distributor and the shaft is of a slightly different length than stock, which was OK with the BWD but not the MSD.
Take Levis jeans. Mine made in the USA have lasted for 20 years, but those made in China last for 1 year, at best.
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Originally posted by thesameguy:
"Levis Jeans made in China" are made to a very low spec to compete with cheap jeans from Old Navy and what have you. It has nothing to do with an entire nation's inability to make good jeans, but rather the Levis Jeans company losing buckets of money to Old Navy and deciding the way to compete with that is mimic the cheap product.
I've never seen a pair of US-made Levis, in more than 35 years. OR a Chinese-made pair. I checked all the ones here at home... They're Mexican.
Dockers, perhaps?
[This message has been edited by css9450 (edited 03-26-2015).]
Originally posted by tshark: Funny thing. It's apparently OK to question the house brands at Autozone, O'Rielley's, Advance Auto, etc, but if you complain about where those parts come from, not so much.
It's not the questioning that is the problem. It's the unwillingness to understand, or provide actually useful information, in a technical forum. If you're going to come post in Technical Discussion about problems with parts, then you should have the decency to actually include something technical in the post.
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On the MSD prodicts, don't go by my results, but another member already did the tests. Apparently, the working MSD system runs much hotter. It ”woke up” his 2.8. The problem was that it also burned up faster. How many times has troubleshooting on an issue come down to removing the new chinese part to put the old part in, thus solving the problem. The new part is bad, doesn't work, is out of spec, wasn't up to OE specs, etc. Why should we diagnose the problem? Return the defective part, and let the manufacturer fix their own problems. If your brand new car blows the engine, do you try to diagnose/repair on your dime? Of course not! You have it fixed under warranty. If you purchase 3 new cars of the same make and model, and they all have catastrophic failures, do you purchase another car of the same make and model, expecting better results? If so, what is that word for doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting different results?
Why shouldn't you diagnose the problem? There's a huge difference between buying a brand new car with a 100K+ mile warranty, and repairing 30 year old technology. If you're going to make the choice to do your own repairs, and install "performance" parts, then you should be willing to understand that doing so might require more of a commitment on your own part. If I buy a brand new car with a warranty and something on it fails, I may not try to diagnose or repair it on my own time, but you can bet your ass I'm going to tell the service manager at the dealer when I take it in, to give me the technical details of what failed exactly and why.
If you want to just install something, have it not work, install the old part that still works, and return the new one claiming it is defective, that's fine. But a post in Technical Discussion which consists of only stating that is exactly what you did, and complaining about China, is not at all technical, and doesn't really do anything to provide helpful information to others who might be looking to purchase the part in question.
Originally posted by css9450: I've never seen a pair of US-made Levis, in more than 35 years. OR a Chinese-made pair. I checked all the ones here at home... They're Mexican.
Dockers, perhaps?
Meh - whatever. I may have misremembered something I read a while ago about the Levi's Jeans Company's increasing financial woes and their attempts to reconcile their product in a world which increasingly doesn't understand it. The point was that "jeans" used to be sturdy things you wore for a lifetime, but that in recent times they'd become bonafide fashion and customers demanded less sturdy and more comfortable... ie, less durable material. The result being Levis making "less good" jeans to satisfy a different type of customer. I dunno where they're actually made, and, of course, it doesn't matter. The point is that Levis is now specifying a less durable product and so we get a less durable product. Doesn't matter whether it's made in the US, Mexico, Malaysia, or wherever. They're being made exactly how they're intended to. Personally, I haven't actually bought Levis in many, many years because I don't need durable jeans. My jeams get wrecked with grease and oil long before they actually wear out. :lol:
With ALL caps now, you have to look inside to see if the pins are crooked, I have seen it with every different brand. Not a thing to buy online as you can't check it until you get it.
^^^ here is the problem with ALL brand caps now. I have seen just about every different brand cap, and some just have crooked pins inside the cap. YOU HAVE TO LOOK FOR YOURSELF. when you buy a new cap. Again I say don't buy a cap online.
what happened to MSD you ask?.? they are not MSD anymore, Mr. Gasket company has bought out most of the name brands out there, MSD, Accel, Jacobs, Mallory, Hays, Quick Time, and Lakewood, there mabey more.
MSD is owned by a private equity company called Gryphon Investors, which also owns K&N. It has been operating under Chapter 11 bankruptcy laws since 2013. I can find no connection to Mr. Gasket.
Originally posted by fierogt28: The MSD coil has a higher max voltage output @ 44,000V which will "wake-up" the ignition system, technically a good aftermarket replacement.
I wish that were true. I learned a lot about ignition system performance and popular aftermarket parts trying to resolve my spark misfire problem under boost. If your spark gap only requires 20,0000 volts, that's all your ignition coil will produce so the MSD coil is not going to provide any better performance than OE unless you exceed OE capacity and the aftermarket coil is capable of producing enough energy to meet the additional demand. That's controlled by the physics of electricity. When I installed brand new MSD coils in place of my OE coils my spark problem got worse.
As someone pointed out in an earlier post, you need the entire MSD outfit for the best chance at any benefit, MSD= Multiple Spark Discharge, and without their ignition box you can't get that or drive their coils to produce the specified performance capability although they will work fine until you push them beyond the threshold that requires the missing MSD components to complete the system.
Brand new 8 mm MSD wires didn't fix a thing either, perhaps they were too red. Advertisement has duped us all into believing a part is better because it carries a performance manufacturers branding and that's what companies are banking on.
In my experience, the best ignition parts on the market are the one that have been proven to last about 100k miles and that's original equipment because those parts are under the pressure of warranty losses to the company if they don't perform and as long as they can do the job, they are the best choice especially when you're miles away from home.
Agreed, except where buyers are under the impression that the name brand product they are buying is quality in the case of MSD, Accel, etc.
This happens all the time.... the bean-counters call it 'Goodwill' and factor it into their purchase decisions. A little company does a good job and builds a reputation of quality. The Big-money guys realize they can buy it and run the name into the muck and make a fortune.....because a bunch of unaware consumers keep thinking the name stands for quality.... When the reality finally catches up to them, the bankers count their money and congratulate each other.....looking for the next company to buy. I don't want to be too cynical here...but this does happen. There are also examples of companies that don't sell out, but you can imagine the temptation.
Originally posted by Gall757:This happens all the time.... the bean-counters call it 'Goodwill' and factor it into their purchase decisions
Word.
"MSD" is precisely why I looked into the red cap that Summit was selling, and "goodwill" is exactly the reason I went looking for first hand experience before buying. Automobiledom is riddled with snake oil and bean-counting conglomerates.
MSD is owned by a private equity company called Gryphon Investors, which also owns K&N. It has been operating under Chapter 11 bankruptcy laws since 2013. I can find no connection to Mr. Gasket.
I Apologize, I thought that was one of the brands they acquired, but now they are the same company, MSD bought Mr. Gasket in 2015.
Every racer knows what MSD stands for May Strand Driver
I've used various MSD components over the years on multiple vehicles (Fiero included) and never once encountered a problem... with any of them.
A couple of months ago, I installed a new Cardone Select distributor and MSD cap/rotor/coil on my daily driver GT. I also installed Taylor Spiro Pro wires. Stock Delco plugs were gapped to 0.60. While at it I replaced the old ICM and coil connectors, as they were showing their age.
The 156,000 mile 2.8 fires up the split second I hit the starter, and runs really strong; gas mileage is amazing, even with the 4-speed Muncie. Most notable change with the new combination is the engine's ability to rev, especially in the higher RPM range.
I drive the car to and from work... and everywhere else... daily.
I'll be glad to let everyone know if I encounter a premature MSD product failure... but based on my previous and current experiences with MSD products, I just don't see that happening any time soon.
Edited for clarity.
[This message has been edited by ITALGT (edited 03-27-2015).]
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
I have an MSD cap (made for a 4.3) on my 2.8 and it works great. Its red too. I have had BWD ingition module and pick up coil in my car for years, they work great too.
I run GM DIS on my 3.4 (custom code) and on my Quad 4
edit to add: But for a cap I used to use what ever brand the auto parts store had that had straight pins, I really can't stress this point enough. I would open just about every box they had looking for straight pins.
I did have a MSD 6AL, I saw no gain, but it did go out once on me and had to plug back in the stock coil, after I got home plugged it back in and it was fine again. The instructions for it even show how to hook up a second one for when it fails.
[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 03-27-2015).]
Chinese made parts....bastards. 
Political rhetoric/BS wears thin awfully fast no matter where it's posted.
