My fiero is my first car and I have done a lot of work to it, it has had multiple engines (duke, 2.8, and then a 2.8 I built from all new parts) but now as I am about to graduate college I cannot keep using my project car for my daily driver. I am going to buy a new DD at the beginning of the summer and take the fiero off the road for a bit (couple years). I would like my car to be street legal but something I can take to track days (road courses) and drive it hard. I would love to put a 3800 turbo in it for a few reasons...
Very reliable and not expensive
Would be easy to just swap bottom ends when the time comes, especially if I drive it hard at the track often
Takes boost from the factory so the bottom end would not need to be modified
Lots of aftermarket support for the engine
The Computer is commonly tuned and is not an issue to work around
Simple and reliable with a lot of weight down low, single cam, roller lifters and full roller rockers stock
Bolts up to the GM 60* transmissions
I plan on having around 400hp
The only problem is that the engine is kind of heavy
So, I have been looking at many people's swaps and doing some research on the other GM V6 engines and other engines I see as possible substitutes are the 3500 or 3900 that would be lighter weight and maybe take some boost stock. I believe they both have forged cranks stock. They also have VVT (I think) but I am not sure if that would be a good thing or a bad thing tuning-wise. I have also seen ecotec swaps but I do not know how reliable they are pushing 400 HP and it seems as though they need to see a lot of the stock electronics to even work.
I will probably spend some time and money to be able to tune the computers myself.
I do not know much about these engines otherwise and do not know if they would be good candidates for boost with a stock bottom end, or if they would be nightmares to tune.
This will be a long term project and I do not care about difficulty of wiring or install I love fabrication, I would just want the engine to fit in the engine bay well.
I plan on using an F23 transmission if I went with a 3800.
I do not care bout being different, I care about simplicity and reliability which the 3800 is both.
I really like the 3800, but if there is another engine that could reliably make 400hp, is not crazy expensive (for example the really cool high feature SAAB turbo 2.8 is expensive), would not be a nightmare to tune, can take boost with a mostly stock bottom end, bolts up to a FWD transmission without an adapter plate, has some aftermarket support AND weighs less than the 3800 I would love some information on it.
well, a 3500 should be able to do what you want no problem, Mars on 60V6 went 11.13 in the quarter on a cam and boost 3500, mind you this was a full weight camaro, not a fiero.
I hope to get my 3500 F23 Fiero back on the road soon, when I do I can try and get you some numbers. (build thread in my sig if you would like to check it out.)
------------------ we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...
well, a 3500 should be able to do what you want no problem, Mars on 60V6 went 11.13 in the quarter on a cam and boost 3500, mind you this was a full weight camaro, not a fiero.
I hope to get my 3500 F23 Fiero back on the road soon, when I do I can try and get you some numbers. (build thread in my sig if you would like to check it out.)
Oh I have been following your thread since the beginning
PS I like your new truck, old trucks are awesome
I will check out if that dude has a build thread
[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 11-12-2013).]
If all you want is to make 400 hp, then you could do a N/A LS4 with an intake and same swap and headers and be done. If you want to turbo later, then that works as well. The F23 would only need the starter bracket and a LS1 flywheel turned down for the 142 tooth ring gear and drilled for the smaller pressure plate.
If you are worried about weight.. the fiero is the wrong platform to get into..
You can EASILY dump huge weight out of a fiero chassis to offset any engine swaps you do... in theory I have made my engine swap nearly invisible weight wise with just a few tweaks.
If you are worried about weight.. the fiero is the wrong platform to get into..
You can EASILY dump huge weight out of a fiero chassis to offset any engine swaps you do... in theory I have made my engine swap nearly invisible weight wise with just a few tweaks.
It is not so much overall weight as it is trying to reduce some of the rear weight so the car does not want to swap ends as badly. Not much to remove back there besides the trunk and battery.
Out of curiosity though what do you remove from the chassis?
Fieroguru, the LS4 seems very similar in weight to the 3800 and personally I think I would rather have a boosted engine in general. I do like the similar simplicity and aluminum construction and reliability of the LS engines. I would not want to have to deal with modifying the water pump every time it needs to be changed however (maybe you don't have to do this but I am just going off of your LS4 swap thread) and the LS4 takes up a lot of space in the engine bay. For a DD I would love to do an LS4 swap for the DoD, the sound, and the nice flat torque curve starting at low RPMs, but this will never be a DD again. Also thanks for the list, I imagine my base model 85 with isuzu, 2.8, no AC, no emmissions anything, and no interior is around 2600 pounds right now.
I have been looking at ecotec information on the web recently as the swap is attractive due to the ample space in the engine bay to work on it and the lightweight nature of the engine as well as the aftermarket support.
I know the Ecotec can handle 400hp without changing any internals, but I do not know if that means it is unreliable at 400hp being driven hard.
I have also been looking into the 3500 but a quick search does not return how much it weighs, does anyone know this offhand?
[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 11-13-2013).]
The LNF Ecotec would work, but wouldn't meet his reasonable price criterion.
If he could be happy with a bit over 300 bhp, he could just turbo a 3.4. It would lik proper in the engine bay - dead stock - and can built to be very reliable (I had over 200,000 km on my turbo). Mind you, it could only do a 0-60 in around 4.5 sec. and a 1/4 in just over 13, so it might not have the performance he said he wanted. Must be going hunting Corvettes! ;-)
I hate to say it (because my Fiero currently has a 3.4), but the 3.4 IMO is not a good start for a ~400HP build. The main drawback to the 3.4 V6 is the iron heads. They weigh more and flow less than the 3x00 heads. And since you're going to be buying an engine anyway, it makes more sense to start with a 3400 or 3500. Not only will you get the aluminum heads, but you'll also get a roller camshaft, reinforced lifter valley (so you could safely run solid roller lifters), and a structural oil pan which reinforces the main bearing caps.
Even if the salvage yard charges you more for the 3x00 than the 3.4, you're still getting a bunch of nifty features (and more power potential) for a few extra bucks.
3400 has pushed 270 to the wheels all motor... 3500 non-VVT engines have better heads and the 3900/3500VVT engines have even bigger bores and better heads. I expect that 300 RWHP all motor from those engines is quite close, if it hasn't been reached already.
Originally posted by zkhennings: Fieroguru,....I would not want to have to deal with modifying the water pump every time it needs to be changed however (maybe you don't have to do this but I am just going off of your LS4 swap thread) and the LS4 takes up a lot of space in the engine bay.
FWIW, just the housing was modified, the replaceable water pump insert remains a stock replacement part. I have already replaced it once with the engine in the car.
I hate to say it (because my Fiero currently has a 3.4), but the 3.4 IMO is not a good start for a ~400HP build. The main drawback to the 3.4 V6 is the iron heads. They weigh more and flow less than the 3x00 heads. And since you're going to be buying an engine anyway, it makes more sense to start with a 3400 or 3500. Not only will you get the aluminum heads, but you'll also get a roller camshaft, reinforced lifter valley (so you could safely run solid roller lifters), and a structural oil pan which reinforces the main bearing caps.
Even if the salvage yard charges you more for the 3x00 than the 3.4, you're still getting a bunch of nifty features (and more power potential) for a few extra bucks.
Exactly the thoughts I am having. I cannot stand the cheap gaskets the 2.8 and 3.4 use I really think it is impossible to get this engine not to leak. I built my 2.8 so carefully and precisely, cleaned every mating surface so well and still I am getting (a very small amount of) leakage. One of the benefits of a better designed engine is better sealing gaskets with proper (grooved or whatever) mating surfaces.
The roller cam is a huge benefit as well as better oiling and stronger block, better flowing heads, better designed combustion chambers, direct injection, etc.
Also I really want to be able to beat on this and I don't think the 3.4 would take it for too long.
Seems as though the 3500 weighs in at 305 ish pounds
3800 is 390 2.8 is 360 Ecotec is 295ish really depends on which one.
So benefits I am seeing so far over the 3800 for the 3500 are lighter weight, 60* so it will be easier to work on in the engine bay, aluminum construction Downsides are tuning and the fact that it appears to only be able to take 10 pounds of boost safely from what I have seen/read, and even if 10psi gets me to my HP goal, is it going to be reliable at 10psi?
Benefits to the ecotec are big aftermarket support, really light, 400HP seems to be reliable on stock internals, but I am still not sure. Downsides are cost and tuning though it seems there is aftermarket support for the tuning now
I could also run MS2 or 3... but I would rather use factory computer with modified tune.
Fieroguru I did not realize that was just a housing I was wondering how you planned on replacing the water pump haha
Other opinions I welcome are those of anyone who has driven a 3800 fiero around a racetrack. Is the weight very noticeable?
Going from the 2.8 to the 3800SC there is not that much weight differences and handling is really not effected by it the real weight gain comes with the 4T65E HD auto tranny the 3800SC comes with and some what needs if you plan on really modifying to the 400HP point. Yes there is manual trannies that can take the power but for how long and even then if you opt for say a 6 speed manual again you are in for a weight gain as it is a heavy tranny. The 3900 is also an option with decent power and strong internals but is a very tight fit in the Fiero and with the same problem as the 3500 in being that if you want to make it easier you have to deal with looking into different reluctor wheels one of which gets externally mounted which does not sit well with me and is hard to come by the parts for but has been done or staying with the fly by wire and stock ECM which can be programmed now which has also been done. If weight is your biggest concern then I would look further into the 2.0l turbo engine, it has a lot of potential and even more after market support. Dan
I'll just toss this out there ... boosted mid-engine cars are a pain - ask any MR2 turbo owner. It's obviously not a problem if you want to stay below 8-10psi but beyond that you really need an intercooler. You might have a little headroom with positive displacement superchargers, but with centrifugal ones or turbos, you need to intercool to get real results. Plumbing and mounting an intercooler in a mid-engine car is somewhere between a challenge and impossible - especially if you don't want to spend a fortune on an air:water exchanger. I'm a huge turbo fan (no pun intended), but if you're looking for big power, I'd make every effort to get there naturally aspirated.
I'll just toss this out there ... boosted mid-engine cars are a pain - ask any MR2 turbo owner. It's obviously not a problem if you want to stay below 8-10psi but beyond that you really need an intercooler. You might have a little headroom with positive displacement superchargers, but with centrifugal ones or turbos, you need to intercool to get real results. Plumbing and mounting an intercooler in a mid-engine car is somewhere between a challenge and impossible - especially if you don't want to spend a fortune on an air:water exchanger. I'm a huge turbo fan (no pun intended), but if you're looking for big power, I'd make every effort to get there naturally aspirated.
This information may have been relivent in the 80s, but with ebay around, and modern engines that dont "need" intercoolers, you are reciting some really old and outdated hillbilly engineering logic.
I'll just toss this out there ... boosted mid-engine cars are a pain - ask any MR2 turbo owner. It's obviously not a problem if you want to stay below 8-10psi but beyond that you really need an intercooler. You might have a little headroom with positive displacement superchargers, but with centrifugal ones or turbos, you need to intercool to get real results. Plumbing and mounting an intercooler in a mid-engine car is somewhere between a challenge and impossible - especially if you don't want to spend a fortune on an air:water exchanger. I'm a huge turbo fan (no pun intended), but if you're looking for big power, I'd make every effort to get there naturally aspirated.
What are you calling "big power" exactly? 400-600 HP is hardly "big power" in the realm of tuned turbo installs out there. When there are plenty of cars making 1000-1200+, 400-600 is closer to the low end.
Also, water/meth injection isn't that expensive. Plus, if you can run E85, it will burn cooler anyway, and has a plenty high enough octane rating to help avoid knock.
Not to mention alcohol injection is affordable, that helps lower the air charge temps. also there are some small yet effective air to water intercoolers, i forget the name of them though, can be found on ebay pretty cheap.
if anyone knows what im talking about i would like the name of them. they are 2-3" diameter water runs through the center of the tube and the air passes over fins on the outside of the tube.
I don't mind spending some money on a system that won't need to be replaced, I just wanted to have a bottom end that is not very expensive so if I need to change it out due to track day abuse I don't need to spend a ton, and don't need to tear it apart and replace expensive aftermarket forged pistons and rods. That's why I am looking for a bottom end that can handle the boost stock without breaking ring landings or bending rods and cranks.
I don't mind spending some money on a system that won't need to be replaced, I just wanted to have a bottom end that is not very expensive so if I need to change it out due to track day abuse I don't need to spend a ton, and don't need to tear it apart and replace expensive aftermarket forged pistons and rods. That's why I am looking for a bottom end that can handle the boost stock without breaking ring landings or bending rods and cranks.
Just go with a stock L67 3800SC. You can get 400 HP easily enough without even converting to turbo. It's well documented how to do it. If you want to go turbo, then just hollow out the blower or get an N/A intake to swap on, install the necessary supporting upgrades such as injectors and cam, tune it, and be done with it. A stock Series II or III 3800 SC can make 400HP easily and reliably, and will take the abuse just fine. It's well documented, an easy swap, and will last forever.
Just go with a stock L67 3800SC. You can get 400 HP easily enough without even converting to turbo. It's well documented how to do it. If you want to go turbo, then just hollow out the blower or get an N/A intake to swap on, install the necessary supporting upgrades such as injectors and cam, tune it, and be done with it. A stock Series II or III 3800 SC can make 400HP easily and reliably, and will take the abuse just fine. It's well documented, an easy swap, and will last forever.
I totally agree, my hopes for this thread were either to confirm this is the only way to go for my needs or maybe find a lighter alternative that would do the same... I do need to research the ecotec more... I will be going turbo though because I like turbos better and I am not limited to expensive supercharger intercoolers. I can also put the weight down lower.
I have been doing more reading and I have seen posts on 60* forum saying the LX9 can really take a beating too.. still trying to figure out how much HP they make at a reasonable amount of boost (7-8psi), been very busy with classes for the past few weeks...
Don't go north star, no tuning help. I'd be looking at a f23 and turbo ecotec. You could get the whole drop out of a cobalt, already bolted together and good to go.
Originally posted by darkhorizon: This information may have been relivent in the 80s, but with ebay around, and modern engines that dont "need" intercoolers, you are reciting some really old and outdated hillbilly engineering logic.
Excuse me? I think you have that backwards. In the '80s, tons of cars shipped without intercoolers and the result was low boost pressure, unimpressive power gains, and the tendency for detonation. By the '90s, the error of that approach was seen and you'd be hard-pressed to find a single turbocharged car that shipped without an intercooler. These days, even supercharged cars have intercoolers because intercooling flat-out makes sense. Boyle's Law shows that compressing air - like with a turbocharger - will cause that air to heat up. The more you compress it, the hotter it gets. Pumping hot air into an engine decreases combustion efficiency (by decreasing air density) and induces detonation (by heating the head and intake manifold). You put an intercooler between the super/turbocharger and the engine to take as much heat as possible out of the intake charge and make the entire operation safer and more efficient.
At low boost pressures - a good rule of thumb is <8psi - the intake charge isn't hot enough to see any real improvements from intercooling. Beyond 8psi, however, not intercooling is just stupid. You are literally giving power away at that point. You post implies that somehow modern engines have changed the nature of thermodynamics and/or the fundamentals of internal combustion engines, and I'd like to submit that is probably not the case. Point me to one turbocharged car made in the last twenty years that doesn't have an intercooler. Point me to one supercharged car in the last ten that doesn't.
There are technologies that mitigate the effects of high intake charge temps - direct injection and water/alcohol injection are two - but using these technologies instead of an intercooler is just stupid. You will stave off or prevent detonation, but neither of these technologies do anything for intake charge density, and that's just leaving power on the table. You couldn't find a hi-po boosted car without an intercooler if you tried, and the first thing anybody tuning a boosted car does is maximize the intercooler's efficiency - and that means as much surface area as possible exposed as directly to fresh airflow as possible. Those are two things very difficult to do with a mid-engined car because the engine is the wrong place for it - you either add miles of plumbing or sacrifice exposure. I've read threads on PFF specifically talking about these challenges.
But, I guess you believe whatever you want to about boosting motors. The six tuned, boosted cars in my driveway were probably done all wrong anyway.
Edit: I will add that you can get around some of the fitment concerns by using an air:water intercooler that doesn't need exposure to air flow, but you've still gotta find a place to mount it and plumb in fluid circulation.Those take up space, too, and air:water exchangers are quite a bit pricier than air:air, but they're a good fit for mid-engined cars. Perhaps look at the Lotus Exige for inspiration. Or don't, because Lotus probably didn't know what they were doing and should have used one of those modern engines that doesn't need intercooling.
[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 11-14-2013).]
Originally posted by dobey:What are you calling "big power" exactly?
I'm talking about big Fiero power. Because this is a Fiero forum, not a Supra or Evo forum.
quote
Also, water/meth injection isn't that expensive. Plus, if you can run E85, it will burn cooler anyway, and has a plenty high enough octane rating to help avoid knock.
Water/meth and/or E85 does not obviate the need for an intercooler. You may - may - avoid detonation with these, but they do not address intake charge density.
if anyone knows what im talking about i would like the name of them. they are 2-3" diameter water runs through the center of the tube and the air passes over fins on the outside of the tube.
They are cheap on ebay because they don't work. We tried one of those on a friend's DSP car because they, at the time, did not meet the SCCA criteria for an intercooler, which was not allowed to be added in that class. Even with a pump pushing icewater out of a cooler through the thing we dropped single digit degrees. Like 7 or 9. Not nearly enough to do any good or justify the weight or plumbing. Even Miata owners - which I believe is where this design first gained popularity - don't use them anymore. They are worthless junk, priced accordingly.
I am doing a water to air intercooler with a front mounted heat exchanger and coolant passages where the AC lines would normally run along the gas tank. Like I said I do not care about cost except for the engine itself because of when it comes time to replace it if I take it to the track a lot. Hopefully in the near future I will actually have some money, I will be graduating in May with a Bachelors degree in Mechanical engineering with a concentration in biomechanics, and a minor in materials. Up till now my entire car has been self funded from summer jobs, but I will hopefully have to make fewer compromises with a real job.
3500 tuning issues? talk to darth... im running a 98 OBD2 ecu, haven't heard of any 'issues' and a lot of people are running 7730's.... no more 'issues' then boosting any other engine...
only thing I had to do was make my harness, and install the 7x and 24x wheels.... (the 24x wheel is just the crank pulley/harmonic dampener from a 3400 and the sensors bolts right on the 3500 timing cover)
They are cheap on ebay because they don't work. We tried one of those on a friend's DSP car because they, at the time, did not meet the SCCA criteria for an intercooler, which was not allowed to be added in that class. Even with a pump pushing icewater out of a cooler through the thing we dropped single digit degrees. Like 7 or 9. Not nearly enough to do any good or justify the weight or plumbing. Even Miata owners - which I believe is where this design first gained popularity - don't use them anymore. They are worthless junk, priced accordingly.
I dont think we are talking about the same cooler here. the laminova cores are actually really efficient.
3500 tuning issues? talk to darth... im running a 98 OBD2 ecu, haven't heard of any 'issues' and a lot of people are running 7730's.... no more 'issues' then boosting any other engine...
only thing I had to do was make my harness, and install the 7x and 24x wheels.... (the 24x wheel is just the crank pulley/harmonic dampener from a 3400 and the sensors bolts right on the 3500 timing cover)
Ok cool I was unaware that they could be run off an older OBD2 ecm I did not want to go down to OBD1 I figured the ecm would want to see the bcm like most modern cars
