I want to eliminate the stock alt bracket and run the alt in the a/c location. If i want to keep my heater working, how would i go about setting up the coolant lines? I mean can i just tap the hole coming off the intake and insert an adapter to hook a hose on? troy
if i remember right, the bracket has coolant running thru it?... Sorry it's been too long since I took the engine apart. Either way, I broke one of the nipples off in the intake while trying to remove the bracket from the front of the engine. It's the one with the 2 rad hose nipples on it. I want to gear it up without this bracket
There is ways to do it but why not leave it in place the 99 up ones with the nice flat spot on top with two bolt holes makes for a very nice and strong dog bone platform. Dan
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Over 30 years wiring experience between cars and trade as an avionics tech. Over 25 years experience building and modifying cars. Over 10 years of full Fiero engine swaps and harnesses building and still going.
if i remember right, the bracket has coolant running thru it?... Sorry it's been too long since I took the engine apart. Either way, I broke one of the nipples off in the intake while trying to remove the bracket from the front of the engine. It's the one with the 2 rad hose nipples on it. I want to gear it up without this bracket
There appears to be a concern about excess pressure building up in the heater system if the alt bracket with the bypass is removed. I solved the problem by drilling a 1/8" hole in the thermostat body. This way there will be a pressure release when the engine is warming. Three years and no problems!
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I'm finishing up a hybrid L67 build and have been thinking about the elbow issue as well. Mine is in an impala,so i'm keeping the bracket. However I don't like the plastic or stainless elbows available. I want to just use short pieces of braided stainless hose with fittings and tap the holes. Not sure how i'll do it yet,but see no issues with just tapping and running lines without bracket. I would probrably neck down the fitting a bit though,as the nipples for the heater hose's are prob not quite half the diameter. Not sure if this will make a difference or not though.
On mine i just epoxied coolant elbows into the water pump housing and ran the heater lines off of that.
Bear in mind that the 3800 alternator bracket has an internal bypass connection directly across the heater feed and return If I am not mistaken the heater feed and return are both on the water pump (feed) side of the 3800 engine. Pressure will build up there as the engine is warming ( before thermostat opens) unless there is either a bypass or a small hole in the thermostat housing. It is not clear how connections to the water pump can accomplishes the bypass function on the feed side of the coolant flow.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
The heater core return is plumbed to the suction side of the water pump. Its obvious when the pump is off of the motor and you can see the passage routing.
If anybody needs pics I have an L67 shortblock on the stand and the water pump,front cover and bracket have not been mounted yet. I could take some pics bare and mocked up if you want a better look at something.
There appears to be a concern about excess pressure building up in the heater system if the alt bracket with the bypass is removed. I solved the problem by drilling a 1/8" hole in the thermostat body. This way there will be a pressure release when the engine is warming. Three years and no problems!
I'm pretty sure that is a myth started by Loyde.
You can put a plug into the discharge on the front cover, left of the water pump. Feed the core from the LIM and dump it back into the intake before the water pump.
There is ways to do it but why not leave it in place the 99 up ones with the nice flat spot on top with two bolt holes makes for a very nice and strong dog bone platform. Dan
I've seen installations ( stick swaps) where a dog bone mounted there had cracked the alternator bracket. On an automatic I can see it working but with a stick powertrain and some wide open shifts I doubt it will last.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I've seen installations ( stick swaps) where a dog bone mounted there had cracked the alternator bracket. On an automatic I can see it working but with a stick powertrain and some wide open shifts I doubt it will last.
Where would you suggest i mount a dog bone on the engine Dennis? I am pretty sure i will go with a 2 dog bone setup like Dan had suggested...One on tranny and one on engine.
Where would you suggest I mount a dog bone on the engine Dennis? I am pretty sure i will go with a 2 dog bone setup like Dan had suggested...One on tranny and one on engine.
Fab a bracket and bolt it to the hole on the side of the block where the tensioner bracket mounts. Two dog bones is my preferred method of proper engine torque control and I know Dan uses it also. Some may consider this overkill but better safe than sorry.
quote
Originally posted by Jefrysuko:
And absolutely NOT the first myth perpetuated by Dennis!
As for the heater line bypass in the alternator bracket, instead of taking worthless pot shots,say something intelligent. Here is your chance- you tell us all why that bypass was put there.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 01-25-2013).]
If you delete the bracket then why can't you use an impala or w-body dogbone bracket in it's place? It is normally mounted on the other side, not sure why it wouldn't bolt up there instead of bracket. I have a few of these as i'm building my wifes 3800 now (impala ss clone) so I can take a couple pics and see how it would fit. Motor is on the stand,but should give you an idea. Might be wrong orientation,but maybe something you could work with.
*i'm gonna take a guess at the reason for the bypass. Is it to equalize the the flow to keep from getting cavitation or water hammer type issue?
[This message has been edited by DefEddie (edited 01-25-2013).]
Here are some pics,while i've never done a fiero 3800 swap it seems like it is made for it.. Let me know if you want measurements to accurately guage orientation.
In it's natural environment (2004 impala/w-body) (Back right of pic behind oil fill)
Where it goes on flywheel side of block
Like it was made to go there.. No interference with front cover.
defeddie, so this bracket is out of an impala? Any particular model of impala? I may go and see if i can find one. If you could go to the trouble to give me some measurements, that would be appreciated. The engine is a ways from being installed in the car. I still have to finish building it along with everything else, but I will hang on to the info and see what I can do with it once it is in the car. Hopefully it would be something i can work with if i go the route without the alt bracket.
There appears to be a concern about excess pressure building up in the heater system if the alt bracket with the bypass is removed. I solved the problem by drilling a 1/8" hole in the thermostat body. This way there will be a pressure release when the engine is warming. Three years and no problems!
Sounds good to me Dennis. I don't suppose you have a pic of where you drilled the hole in the tstat body? troy
I will take some measurements in it. That bracket should be on most all w-bodies,that is from impala LS. You'll have to look for an LS because base models got 3400's. I also have another bracket that hugs over the valve cover. It is the dogbone bracket for non supercharged (since the front dogbone for SC bolts to idler/coil bracket). It is in the sand blaster now,I will take a pic when it comes out. It will possibly be easier to relocate where it will line up with stock fiero bracket on trunk,maybe.
Fieroaddicted, You can drill the hole anywhere in the center of the "disc" around the body. This is an old hot rod trick i've done to all mine for years,keeps a small amount of coolant flowing at all times. Look at your thermostat,most have a jiggler valve on them now anyway. Just use some dykes and cut the jiggler piece out and you've got a hole. "Jiggler" valve is my own word,you'll understand when you see it.
[This message has been edited by DefEddie (edited 01-27-2013).]
I will take some measurements in it. That bracket should be on most all w-bodies,that is from impala LS. You'll have to look for an LS because base models got 3400's. I also have another bracket that hugs over the valve cover. It is the dogbone bracket for non supercharged (since the front dogbone for SC bolts to idler/coil bracket). It is in the sand blaster now,I will take a pic when it comes out. It will possibly be easier to relocate where it will line up with stock fiero bracket on trunk,maybe.
Fieroaddicted, You can drill the hole anywhere in the center of the "disc" around the body. This is an old hot rod trick i've done to all mine for years,keeps a small amount of coolant flowing at all times. Look at your thermostat,most have a jiggler valve on them now anyway. Just use some dykes and cut the jiggler piece out and you've got a hole. "Jiggler" valve is my own word,you'll understand when you see it.
Sweet, thanks for the info. I'll have to wait till friday before i can get a look at it to see what you mean, since it is at work and i will be away on course till then. troy
The one on the left is for a 3800,the one on the right is random to illustrate the "jiggler valve" I put some black dots around it to illustrate where to drill. Anywhere in that disc area,just don't disturb gasket. On ones with the jiggler nothing needs done,or just cut the jiggler out. Too bad 3800 doesn't use,be easier.
The one on the left is for a 3800,the one on the right is random to illustrate the "jiggler valve" I put some black dots around it to illustrate where to drill. Anywhere in that disc area,just don't disturb gasket. On ones with the jiggler nothing needs done,or just cut the jiggler out. Too bad 3800 doesn't use,be easier.
just happened to be at AZ when I read this
on that note, maybe there is an elternate thermostat we can use with the built in jiggler valve.
Ummm... Is everyone else giggling when typing jiggler valve?
As for the heater line bypass in the alternator bracket, instead of taking worthless pot shots,say something intelligent. Here is your chance- you tell us all why that bypass was put there.
It is there to ensure there is always some coolant flow when the thermostat is closed to prevent hot spots.
The question you commonly fail to answer is "How does this apply to a Fiero?"
In some cars there is a heater control valve which shuts off coolant flow to the heater core. In an application like that such a bypass is necessary because both the thermostat and the heater control valve could be closed at the same time thus preventing any coolant flow through the engine. However in a Fiero there is no such valve and thus there is always coolant flowing through the heater core and thus the engine as well. So what did you do by drilling a hole in your thermostat? All you effectively did was ensure that there was a small amount of coolant flowing through the radiator as well as the heater core thus making it take longer for your car to reach operating temperature. If your hole turns out to be too big you will have created a bigger problem in that you will not be able to maintain operating temperature.
So in your quest to solve the problem you might have created another one or could be leading someone else who drives their Fiero in colder temperatures than you towards a problem.
BTW: You could have applied some basic logic to figure out that "Excess Pressure" was not the reason for the bypass. A water pump is an impeller style pump and is operating in a very low viscosity fluid which means that even if you dead head the pump (thermostat and heater control valve closed) you are only going to be able to generate a few PSI. Any self respecting engineer using any king of FMEA style logic would account for that and design for a dead headed pump situation. Besides with a 16 PSI system pressure and possibly 6 PSI for the dead headed pump = 22 PSI. Does that sound like EXCESSIVE pressure?
so what about just removing the tstat and tossing it away and running none? My thinking on this would be that it would take longer to heat up, and could potentially end up overheating due to the fact that the coolant doesn't stay in the rad long enough to maintain normal operating temp. What do you guys think? Bad idea? troy
I forgot to post up about the N/A dogbone bracket. I matched it up and unfortunately it will not bolt onto the SC motor. It uses existing holes threaded in the N/A lower intake that are not present in the S/C lower. I didn't check to see if enough meat to drill/tap. Let me know if you want pics and I'll take them.
Bring this back to top since the motor I built in pics above is coming out of wifes car and going into my 88 gt. Any chance somebody's got pics of how they worked out tensioner and routing issues after deleting Alt bracket and power steering? No cash for electric water pump right now.
I've got a crate full of brackets and tensioners from 2.8's,3.4's,3400's rwd/fwd as well as L67/L36 both W and H body I think. Would love some help to spark my creativity,don't want to make brackets if i can get away with it. Plan to run AC as well,but anything that will give me idea's will be appreciated.
Also,for people that tapped directly into pump/intake where elbows were,what size AN fittings did you use?
Bring this back to top since the motor I built in pics above is coming out of wifes car and going into my 88 gt. Any chance somebody's got pics of how they worked out tensioner and routing issues after deleting Alt bracket and power steering? No cash for electric water pump right now.
I've got a crate full of brackets and tensioners from 2.8's,3.4's,3400's rwd/fwd as well as L67/L36 both W and H body I think. Would love some help to spark my creativity,don't want to make brackets if i can get away with it. Plan to run AC as well,but anything that will give me idea's will be appreciated.
Also,for people that tapped directly into pump/intake where elbows were,what size AN fittings did you use?
The cheap aluminum "dog bone mount" is complete garbage, so dont try using it and just put some version of the stock tensioner there... It will work fine if you run the alternator off the "front" of the motor and no AC. The tensioner will pull "up" on the belt off the water pump and crank pulley. It doesnt leave alot of wrap so it may squeal on fast RPM changes but its rare even on my drag car.
