When is the last time you saw a Ferrari, Lamborghini or GTO trying to look like a Fiero ? I have never seen any other car try to look like a Fiero. Why?
So often I see owners trying to make their cars look like a "Ferrari or have a GTO, or BMW front end or even Lamborghini doors.
Now, I hate the later model front ends on the Fiero and I'm trying as fast as I can to come up with a new better looking fascia---from a Ferrari no less. I think the inside dash of the Fiero looks campy but why? Well sometimes I think I think it looks campy because somewhere I read that it was and they are changing it out to look like what? Any car but a Fiero.
I've always loved the look of the Fiero but I have to admit some of the modifications owners have done to their cars look pretty cool. But let's not forget about what made the Fiero a Fiero. We Fiero owners have a car that was the only mid engine production car made in the USA. My point is this. Fiero owners need to think more outside the box and make design changes carefully and reflect not only the owner's unique concepts but still keep the soul of the Fiero.
I can guarantee you a stock body Fiero will still turn heads and they won't care whether you have changed out the dash or the front end.
I guess where I am going here is perhaps we Fiero owners should take a step back every now and then and maybe think about the original body design of the Fiero that attracted so many buyers when it was on the showroom floor. People bought these cars when they were new not because they looked like some other car but because they were pretty cool looking cars as they sat right there on the showroom floor. No doubt it was the styling and not the power that attracted the Fiero customer. ------------------ Goody
The beauty of a solution lies in its simplicity
[This message has been edited by kgoodyear (edited 07-07-2014).]
I hate the later model front ends on the Fiero and I'm trying as fast as I can to come up with a new better looking fascia---from a Ferrari no less.
quote
Originally posted by kgoodyear:
I guess where I am going here is perhaps we Fiero owners should take a step back every now and then and maybe think about the original body design of the Fiero that attracted so many buyers when it was on the showroom floor. People bought these cars when they were new not because they looked like some other car but because they were pretty cool looking cars as they sat right there on the showroom floor. No doubt it was the styling and not the power that attracted the Fiero customer.
IMHO I believe that people just wanted to take a Fiero and modify it to look unique or different. There aren't that many on the roads anymore so now a stock Fiero is unique or different.
Originally posted by kgoodyear: No doubt it was the styling and not the power that attracted the Fiero customer.
I don't understand why people keep repeating this crazy line about the Fiero having so little power. It didn't. Stop comparing it with modern sports cars. The V6 Fiero had ample performance for its day. Even the Camaro came with the 2.5 4 cylinder and V6 in the non-Z models; and the Z/28 and Tarns Am only had about 185-200 HP depending on the engine. The Corvette only had about 240. The Fiero might seem like it didn't have a lot of power, but compare it to the 2.8 in the F-bodies. the Fiero had a couple hundred pounds weight advantage. So, the Fiero would have been faster, and is even close to the 305 TPI Z/28.
So no, the Fiero is not "slow" by the standards against which it was produced, and styling is not the only thing that would have attracted buyers in the 80s.
I see what you are saying here but I would disagree. It seems like a lot of people that do the lambo kits and the ferrari kits usually don't understand fiero's.
I've had experience in meeting some of these people that do the body changes and they weren't aware of this site!
None the less they didn't even know how long the fiero was being produced. I feel like most of the people that do changes to the interior do it because of the class. They like the more modern look to it and I would have to agree. I would rather have some nice black stitching than just gray plastic that has unfortunately deteriorated over the last 30 years.
You have a good point Dobey. As a matter of fact when it comes to the power of the original engine I know not of what I speak only what I have heard. I'll admit that. But doesn't this just make my point? Properly powered or not, I think it comes down to the look and perhaps the mid-engine concept that really makes the Fiero so attractive.
I like the basic shape of the Fiero just fine, thanks. But that doesn't mean that I haven't added some custom touches to it. It's still readily identifiable as a Fiero.
Regarding power... My 85 GT, that I purchased new in 85, was a decent match for a Monte Carlo SS of the same vintage. I think they came with a 305 that had a blistering 170 HP (against the Fiero's 140) with almost twice the displacement.
------------------ Raydar 88 Formula IMSA Fastback. 4.9, NVG T550 Praise the Lowered!
Most "Fiero" people like the fiero basically as is- but like to do some detail changes- I have an 85 SE/V-6 that, after the upper-surface paint died at 12 years, I was able to scrounge Late-GT rear upper body and a late model base nose- no Ground-effects- I never liked the wide "B" pilar so I created some B-pilar aluminum covers.....Most people say it looks better than the origanal(I haven't a clue how to post a pic).
The people doing the Lambo/Feri/whatever conversions have no interest in the Fiero except as a basis for their kit.
I always thought that if you set up a fiero properly and burn down some snobby porka driver; A) Lambo kit,"It was a $200,000 car so it should burn down my 911, or B) Fiero bodied, "that was a #$&^(@ Fiero and he left me behind.....I....I....Can't live with myself....Arrrrgggggggg!"
Raydar, Mine looks like yours except, A) it's white, B) it doesn't have the WT, and C) I have VOXX Monza 16x7s that are light and good lookin'.....I could send you a pic of mine with the "B" pillars if you'd be willing to post it here.
[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 07-07-2014).]
Let me say this . The original Fiero or even a modified Fiero is and has always been a head turner. I have built 4 lambo kits using Fieros and the real only reason that we use this car as a doner is because of the mid engine. Even if we swap out the motor the general overall design of the car just works out for a easer build. At this point its not about the Fiero anymore its all about the replica and honestly having a dream car. Real dream cars are out of our budget and some guys just love to do the build. If there was a much newer car that was mid engine then it would probably be the favorite. Using a Fiero gives us the vin # required to legalize our cars . A hand built tube frame is almost impossible to get thru registration. Plain and simple the Fiero is your bet option yet. We cut and gut the car of everything but the basic floor pan and drive train. I have also kept a stock Fiero to drive around town and it is still a fun car no matter what. So its not about identity or trying to fake someone out and make them believe that the car is something its not. Its about being creative and making something glamorous of something from the past. I find this site to be a god sent and with the help of all of its members keeping this car alive! When i convert a Fiero into a replica show car i feel like i have taken a long forgotten car an giving it a new life. I check out everyones modifications and find it inspiring no matter if it is original or a conversion. I can even value you opinion on keeping this car stock and keeping it alive. Wouldn't it be wonderful if GM put out a brand new v8 2016 Fiero Gt with all the modern bells and whistles. How many of you would buy one?
Originally posted by cvxjet: The people doing the Lambo/Feri/whatever conversions have no interest in the Fiero except as a basis for their kit.
I'm getting ready to convert my 88 to a Murcielago replica. Not because I don't appreciate a Fiero, but because I don't have $250K for my dream car. I also have full intention of doing a restoration of GT for showing...I think it is an amazing looking car. But my dream car comes first. I also reserve the right to use lots of artistic license to make it what I want.
I like the basic shape of the Fiero just fine, thanks. But that doesn't mean that I haven't added some custom touches to it. It's still readily identifiable as a Fiero.
Regarding power... My 85 GT, that I purchased new in 85, was a decent match for a Monte Carlo SS of the same vintage. I think they came with a 305 that had a blistering 170 HP (against the Fiero's 140) with almost twice the displacement.
I have more trouble with people who think a stock Fiero is a Toyota. I like stock !
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
I appreciate the Fiero for what it is- a mid 80's economical commuter car that was eventually restyled to look sporty. What I've always liked about the car is the mid engine, plastic body, the ease of modifications, the driving feel, the styling that was way ahead of its time and the affordability. IMO, the Fiero GT is a timeless design needing some mods to keep it current. That's why we see so many suspension upgrades and engine swaps being done. I enjoy the customizable nature of this car that makes it more enjoyable as a driver but appreciate completely stock Fieros as a preservation of automotive history. The car has it all
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
The Fiero - literally from almost day number one - has been well utilized for other type builds outside of it's Fiero "shell." Prior to the Fiero going into production, there was a very much alive and booming kit car industry; mostly being built on VW platforms. However there wasn't really much beyond these tried-and-true builds, other than taking on full custom builds. The Fiero on the other hand from the onset builders knew that the car would likely make a good candidate for customization. Even before the Fiero began to hit showrooms, Pontiac well touted the Fiero's ability to be near modular. The company boasted on the quick ability to remove body panels for servicing, or how plastics could be easily swapped out in collisions without worry of having to perform extensive repairs that often would cost a tremendous amount of money. Pontiac assumed that owners of Fieros that may receive damage would simply swap body panels out for new units. You can see this language quite well just in the early '84 model sales brochures and the '84 owners manuals.
This is why in the first year of the Fiero being produced, there was already a company that had created a Countach kit car. The second someone came into possession of a Fiero, it didn't take long to figure out in an afternoon's worth of work you could have the car disassembled down to it's rolling space frame. Then it didn't take long to realize that with a "blank canvas" you could throw whatever type body you could throw on there. Then people started having ideas to throw on replicas of exotic cars. Then quite quickly a massive boom in kit cars occurred. I remember thinking it was funny some years ago seeing a 1984 Fiero for sale with only 3 miles on it that had been victim of this initial skinning; it had been purchased, and immediately stripped for prep of kit car install, only for the owner to never fully get the kit ready for the chassis.
Throughout the Fiero's life other kits cars would quickly come into fruition. Despite changes in the Fiero body styles throughout the single generation of production, kit cars in the 80s based on a Fiero platform were often huge, and very fragile, business adventures. As many kit car companies came into being in the near same amount that would leave the market. It's one of the reasons why today you often see random hap-hazard left-over builds from the 80s that likely looked good at one time, but did not survive well through the years, either through owner's negligence or simply lacking of build quality.
Now for the most part the kit car market is largely left-over projects or those that may want to actually take the plunge (and remember, building one is always well above any budget estimation you may have). The bulk of kit car builds have long gone to specialized chassis or even different donors altogether (cars like the Porsche Boxster and last generation MR-S/MR2 are more modern donors). The Fiero market has come around near full circle though in that now most of the aftermarket that is being produced is seen as enhancements of sorts; wide bodies, chops, tire and wheel combos coupled with suspension packages, etc. A lot of these are now coming about simply because the Fiero market is getting to a point where customization can often replace trying to restore a car back to stock. Many Fieros have been neglected, and it makes massive projects quite challenging to restore properly, hence a move to full-on customization. Which can be a good thing, but it's often an opinionated matter.
I have to say though just as a final thought; as Dennis said above Fieros are cheap economical commuters. That's what they were built as. Plain and simple. Don't take what I'm saying wrong; I really, REALLY, love Fieros and they will always rank quite high as a personal favorite in terms of all-time vehicle builds. They're cheap, they're fun to drive, and they are great topics of automotive conversation and debate. However you have to accept certain facts. Fieros are about as bottom barrel in build quality as nasty bottom barrel blended scotch used as house liquor. Their styling mostly came about as matter of consequence (mid-ships give some ample styling freedom). Their build on a whole can be considered hap-hazard, since GM had to cut many corners and come up with ways to implement existing parts to work together. Sure, the V6 models for the day had very impressive numbers and competed well with similar classed cars. However you have to remember that again Fieros were doing this on builds that were ultimately a cluster of sorts. Even by the time the 1988 enhancements came along, it was still limited by the same basic Fiero design principles.
So I don't think it's a case of any sort of identity issue or mistaken identity, but more along the lines of accepting the identify of the car for what it is and moving on from that. Then you'll understand why so many perform drivetrain swaps, body modifications, etc...
I like that the Fiero was relatively light and (for the time) relatively fast. It's a fun car that doesn't have to be doing 80+ to have fun.....The cars nowindays have (in my opinion) way too much power. The BASE mustang has 300+! The regular GT has 400+......Simply put, there arn't that many people out there that can properly drive, let alone drive something that is faster than the supercars of a decade ago!
Still, I'd love to see someone take an 88, drop an LS7 in, cryo a trany w/LSD, then get Bilstien to do some proper shocks for it, and take it to the Ring and lay a 7:teen time....Then maybe most of the dumbazzes would stop asking me if my car has caught fire lately.....Arrrrrgggggg!
you have to accept certain facts. Fieros are about as bottom barrel in build quality as nasty bottom barrel blended scotch used as house liquor. Their styling mostly came about as matter of consequence (mid-ships give some ample styling freedom). Their build on a whole can be considered hap-hazard, since GM had to cut many corners and come up with ways to implement existing parts to work together...
I see it differently, with all Pontiac was up against with corporate, and with what they had to work with, Fieros are amazing. Also about where they are in the barrel of build quality, in my exparience, in the early mid 80s, they are no where near the bottom. Anyway. I am happy to see the ones I see, daily driver survivors, race cars and show cars, even rebodies. I'd love to have a LS motor in mine
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 07-08-2014).]
Actually, the Fiero was the first US car to be made under the Demings TQM process; Deming was the (American)guy who taught the japanese quality control starting in 1950....It's a process, so it doesn't involve just yelling at your employees and instantly having quality; Instead, you learn as you go, and slowly you eliminate all the problems by proper design. The first year Fiero was pretty bad, but my 85 SE-V6 had only a heater fan go out in the first year, then a washer pump(British made?!!!) in the second year. After that, the clutch went out at 55,000/5 years(I learned on it) and then the paint died at 12 years. My stepbrothers 1986 NEW Honda accord in 4 years had the steering rack, front brake calipers and rotors and AC compressor go out- yes seperately. The worst car today is far better than the best car in 1980. And the Fiero was on it's way to being a great car.
The Fiero might seem like it didn't have a lot of power, but compare it to the 2.8 in the F-bodies. the Fiero had a couple hundred pounds weight advantage.
The Fiero also had about 20 more HP than the 2.8 F-body. At the time, the Fiero V6 was the highest output 2.8L V6 GM made. The versions used in other cars had 110-120 HP. The Fiero had about 140HP. Even the V8 Firebird only had 150HP. You had to get a Trans Am or Z28 to get the higher output engines.
The high output 60º V6 was an interesting story. It started out with the Citation X-11 and car magazines like Motor Trend were amazed at it's power output. By the time the Fiero V6 came out, the X-11 engine had been upgraded with MPFI and became what we know as the L44 engine in the Fiero. It was only available in the Fiero and was the highest output 60º V6 until the GenII aluminum head engines came out.
Originally posted by Formula88: The Fiero also had about 20 more HP than the 2.8 F-body. At the time, the Fiero V6 was the highest output 2.8L V6 GM made. The versions used in other cars had 110-120 HP. The Fiero had about 140HP. Even the V8 Firebird only had 150HP. You had to get a Trans Am or Z28 to get the higher output engines.
The high output 60º V6 was an interesting story. It started out with the Citation X-11 and car magazines like Motor Trend were amazed at it's power output. By the time the Fiero V6 came out, the X-11 engine had been upgraded with MPFI and became what we know as the L44 engine in the Fiero. It was only available in the Fiero and was the highest output 60º V6 until the GenII aluminum head engines came out.
The third gen F-bodies also had a broad range of power output, given the 11 year life span, and the many different iterations of engines available over that time in the cars.
The Fiero also wasn't the only car with the L44. The 85 Citation X-11 got one, as did the 6000 STE in 85-86.
The L44 did make a little more torque than the LB8 though, which helped push out an extra 5 HP at a slightly higher RPM.
I have to take my hat off for those that keep the Fiero stock inside and out. These are the ones that appreciate the whole Fiero history. Enthusiasts have been swapping out engines for a long time. Very seldom though do you see it go the other way around.
For some reason I have no qualms about chaninging the drivetrain but there is just that ceretain je ne sais quoi to the Fiero.
Look at it any way you want from the inside or the outside it isn't a Lamborghini.
Oh what a beautiful car....but what are you going to tell your date when she asks?
"Oh, it's not a Lamborghini?"
Married 22 years...and she won't be invited to even sit in it.
quote
Originally posted by kgoodyear:
It just lessons the mystique of the Fiero and what the Lamborghini Murcielago really is.
It will never be a Lamborghini and your sexy 88 will be gone.
As I said, I plan to use poetic license. I'm aiming for an awesome looking car....just happens to be based on the Murcielago styling. Honestly, the styling of a notchie Fiero doesn't excite me....now the GT on the other hand...absolutely love it! My next project after this one will be a complete one-off build.
Married 22 years...and she won't be invited to even sit in it.
Dude, I said your date not your wife.
When you get down to it, my donor engine came from a Grand Prix and I'm making it look like a Fiero. I would suppose someone on the Grand Prix form would complain about me tossing a 98 Grand Prix body into a shredder after ripping out its guts.
We've digressed sufficiently now my original premise is not even on the horizon.
But I still say it is such a waste of a sexy and iconic car for a VIN.
My dates can't even spell car....let alone Murcielago
quote
Originally posted by kgoodyear:
But I still say it is such a waste of a sexy and iconic car for a VIN.
This is where I would actually point out that the key part of using a Fiero is for the versatile spaceframe. When used properly (underline that part many times), you are gaining the advantages of an extremely safe structure that doesn't rely on it's panels for structural integrity. I've never been a fan of tube frames.
I love the Fiero and all aspects of it. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy other cars, and still recognize the potential of a Fiero to create something special. In other words, you can love both.
Originally posted by kgoodyear: We've digressed sufficiently now my original premise is not even on the horizon.
But I still say it is such a waste of a sexy and iconic car for a VIN.
Preface: My ownership preference is notchback 'stock': '84 SE 4 speed purchased new; now 365,000 kilometers; '86 2.5L 5 speed purchased 3 years ago; now 120,000 kilometers; cosmetic restoration, factory option adds & '87 Duke; '88 Formula 5 speed purchased 6 years ago; now 25,000 kilometers - showroom condition.
The Fiero is an ideal hobbyist's car - you can keep it 'true Fiero' relatively easily & cheaply if that's your preference. If you have the mechanical skills or finances for outsourcing, performance upgrades are easily attainable. If you have the artistic & fabrication skills, custom bodywork is relatively easily attached.
The Fiero driveable chassis invites customizers to express their hobbyist identities wherever their imaginations take them. Maybe it's "automotive art" rather than an identity issue...
We don't need GTO, BMW or Ferrari DNA to define the Fiero though. I would like to see more unique-to-Fiero body sculpture and see what Fiero artists can really create among ourselves. (And then......one drunken evening, Pontiac went to bed with Ferrari................)
I appreciate the Fiero for what it is- a mid 80's economical commuter car that was eventually restyled to look sporty. What I've always liked about the car is the mid engine, plastic body, the ease of modifications, the driving feel, the styling that was way ahead of its time and the affordability. IMO, the Fiero GT is a timeless design needing some mods to keep it current. That's why we see so many suspension upgrades and engine swaps being done. I enjoy the customizable nature of this car that makes it more enjoyable as a driver but appreciate completely stock Fieros as a preservation of automotive history. The car has it all
Completely agree. On another note, some guys take it too far.....Ferrari badges on a car that is not a replica but a Fiero with Corvette lights and a 355 bumper. I respect guys that keep their cars clean. There are too many people who just go overboard with the most tacky cheap looking body/ interior mods...spray paint, type r floor mats, steering wheel covers, terrible seat covers, wheels that look like they came off a cutlass from Compton. But to each their own I guess. The Fiero is getting to be a rare car, and as time goes by there are even less, especially in good condition. Most people under 30 have no idea what they are anyway, unless they are into cars to begin with.
[This message has been edited by Odin (edited 07-08-2014).]
But I still say it is such a waste of a sexy and iconic car for a VIN.
Personally I dont like the rebodies either but I dont hate on it. "To each is its own" as they say, it shouldnt matter if someone wants to rebody their fiero or not. You may not like a rebody fiero but someone else might and as long as it makes them smile when they drive it down the road than thats all that matters personally.
------------------ 1988 Pontiac Fiero Gt (fully optioned, factory leather, 5-speed, CJB T-Tops: Black w/ gray interior and blk wheels) 1992 GMC Typhoon #0203 1971Chevorlet Corvette 454cu/ LS5/ 4-speed/ convertible 1993 BMW 850 Ci 6-speed V-12
Originally posted by kgoodyear: I would like to see more unique-to-Fiero body sculpture and see what Fiero artists can really create among ourselves. (And then......one drunken evening, Pontiac went to bed with Ferrari...)
Originally posted by kgoodyear: We don't need...Ferrari DNA to define the Fiero though.
LOL. Actually, yes, you do. Everything about the Fiero's design was based on Ferrari's designs of the era. Hell, the Mera was a 308 rebody offered directly at dealers.
Like a lot of American kids, I wanted a Vette. My mom introduced me to the Fiero & I've never looked back. Though I don't hate kit cars, I don't like that people take projects larger than they should & scrap the Fiero. If you want to make your car a Ferrari, who am I to tell you that yo shouldn't? But don't scrap it because you can't.
I have very little alterations in plan for my Fiero, because I like it as it is.
I don't think it's a matter of identity, I think it's a mater of practicality & finance.
