Looking for a 4.9 expert within reasonable distance of Atlanta, Ga. I already know about The Fiero Factory. That's where the original installation was done. Not knocking them, but original owner says it's never been right. Now, it's worse than ever.
Looking for a 4.9 expert within reasonable distance of Atlanta, Ga. I already know about The Fiero Factory. That's where the original installation was done. Not knocking them, but original owner says it's never been right. Now, it's worse than ever.
I've done this swap and am familiar with them. While not near Atlanta, I will be at Carlisle and would be glad to chat about solutions. While I wear a name badge, if you wish to track me down, I will PM my cell number to you. Feel free to give me a buzz. Don't claim to be an expert but have done computer controlled engine work for many years. If you can do an ECM scan beforehand that would help.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 06-14-2021).]
I'll be at Carlisle, too. I wanted to meet you but missed you 2 years ago. If I can't find you, I'll have the "C8 Prototype" and should be close by.
The car is a Formula with manual trans and belongs to a club member who, after 2 years, has become so disgusted that he's given up. I'll have to get a listing of everything done and see if I can get a scan copy.
Jack, the car has had every sensor on it replaced. The distributor has been replaced with a new one. The ECM was replaced. No change, so the original was put back in. The injectors were replaced because the car had been running extremely rich. That problem has been mostly resolved.
The engine runs well when the ECM is jumpered. Set the base timing and remove the jumper and it runs lousy.
Prior to the member acquiring the car, the original owner had been driving it. I believe for a number of years. It began randomly running on 4 cylinders, then 8. No common happening to make it begin missing on 4, then back to 8. We found a fuse block mounted on the right strut tower had a bad contact and one of the injector fuses was losing contact from time to time. That fuse block has been replaced and a shield installed over it to keep out water. Now, it runs on all 8.
Another problem is that it continually throws the belt. The battery has to be removed to replace it. It was found that the idler/tensioner was bad and was replaced. That didn't fix the problem.
Dennis, would you be open to chatting with the owner? I'm just trying to find a solution for him.
ECM changed 3 times. New Distributor New injectors New Plugs New TPS Continuity checked between all sensors and ECM Grounds checked ICM and Hall Effect sensors swapped around Mechanical timing verified to be correct New fuel pressure regulator New EGR valve No ECM has thrown any codes New O-2 sensor No check engine light when shorting A&B Firing order verified to be correct Set timing to 10-12 BTC with A&B shorted, runs good Pull jumper and it begins missing, coughing, sputtering Runs a little rich, but not choking anyone out of the shop like it was a year ago.
He's seriously about to confirm the saying "They all catch fire".
[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 06-14-2021).]
Judging by what you have indicated. Check to make sure that pin C9 of the ECM is connected to 12V ignition. It should be the Lt.blue/orange lead. If you do not read 12V on C9 (ignition on) the ECM will not go into closed loop and operate correctly. I recommend taking out the VOM meter to measure the voltage there.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I'll see if I can get hi to try once more. As said, he's ready to burn it. I suggested something earlier and he said he's done. I'm just trying to decide if it's easily fixable before I consider buying it. Like the problem with it running on just 4 cylinders. Caused by a loose fuse holder. I would have to stretch finances, but I'm willing to tow it up to you if the price is right and I buy the car.
I'll see if I can get hi to try once more. As said, he's ready to burn it. I suggested something earlier and he said he's done. I'm just trying to decide if it's easily fixable before I consider buying it. Like the problem with it running on just 4 cylinders. Caused by a loose fuse holder. I would have to stretch finances, but I'm willing to tow it up to you if the price is right and I buy the car.
Still say that the problem is most likely electronic. Probably a good scan of the ECM and a check of the wiring at pin C9 as in my post above may pinpoint the problem. Anything is fixable. It just takes time to diagnose and fix. The 4.9L is an excellent engine, strong light and reliable. IMO, the best Cadillac engine ever made.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 06-15-2021).]
When the ignition is turned on, the SES light comes on briefly as it should. When a scanner is connected, there is no SES light. There is no data displayed on the scanner. This is a SnapOn scanner. The only scanner that will pull any limited data is one that uses a smart phone for display and it doesn't
There is no blue/orange wire in the harness. The pink wire (may be pink/black) at C9 is from the power steering pump according to the schematic and apparently has no power.
Chip numbers are: BWYJ 1624 2453 Light blue in color.
Should there be a jumper wire in the power steering pump harness connector? With the pump deleted, the harness is just there. If so, it's possible that while working on the car, it has been knocked out at some point. There's none there.
When the ignition is turned on, the SES light comes on briefly as it should. When a scanner is connected, there is no SES light. There is no data displayed on the scanner. This is a SnapOn scanner. The only scanner that will pull any limited data is one that uses a smart phone for display and it doesn't
There is no blue/orange wire in the harness. The pink wire (may be pink/black) at C9 is from the power steering pump according to the schematic and apparently has no power.
Chip numbers are: BWYJ 1624 2453 Light blue in color.
Should there be a jumper wire in the power steering pump harness connector? With the pump deleted, the harness is just there. If so, it's possible that while working on the car, it has been knocked out at some point. There's none there.
Dennis, PM your phone number, please.
Not many scanners work with the Cadillac ECM's. I have an older one that does and will go to the garage tomorrow and let you know which one it is.. Yes the wire at C9 is the power steering power feedback. It must have 12V ignition power applied to it otherwise the ECM falls into limp home mode. It is critical to have power there for ECM function. I believe that is the problem. Cell number was PM to you a few days ago. I'll resend.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Maybe there was a jumper in the power steering harness plug and it became detached while trying to resolve the dead injector bank issue. Should we put a jumper in the PS harness plug? Is that a safe way to do it? It looks like they used E3 to bypass the PS switch, eliminating the blue-orange wire.
I'm leaning toward the likelihood that there was a jumper that became detached while trying to resolve the intermittent injector bank issue. It was during that time that the current problem seemed to rear its ugly head.
I have an Auto X-Ray 6000mscanner which works for both of my 4.9 installations. One is a 92 Eldo with 2 O2 sensors and the other is an 83 Deville with 1 O2 sensor.
This engine is a 92-94 DeVille/Seville. The engine uses a crossover with the downstream O2 sensor disabled. I don't know what scanners he's used, but I know the last one was a higher end SnapOn portable and I don't believe it would read it.
I saw 1 schematic that showed E3 as connected to the power steering pressure switch via a pink wire. The blue/orange wire is absent at C9 and replaced by pink. It does have 12 volt with ignition on.
[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 06-16-2021).]
I had a 4.9 with the FieroFactory harness. I had to repair or replace several connectors. Whoever they used to build the harness did a poor job. Several pins lost connection due to poor crimping. Some were hard failures, some were intermittent. It was a headache to complete the swap and get everything running right. I bought it as an unfinished project.
Originally posted by fierofool: ... The pink wire (may be pink/black) at C9 is from the power steering pump according to the schematic and apparently has no power.
Should there be a jumper wire in the power steering pump harness connector? With the pump deleted, the harness is just there. If so, it's possible that while working on the car, it has been knocked out at some point. There's none there.
I found the power steering input in the shop manual (I forget which pin, at the moment). I talked with Scott and asked him to check. He told me that there was 12V there. This was a while back.
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:
I erroneously said that the downstream o2 sensor was disabled. This engine only had 1 o2 sensor from the factory is my understanding.
At one point, Scott had a scanner app that ran through his phone. It indicated that the ECM (whichever one he was running at the time) was looking for two O2 sensors. Since it only found the one, it was plugging the "default" in to the other slot. (~450mV) It's not the ideal situation, but it shouldn't be too detrimental. Mine has been running that way for years. (I had turned on the 2nd O2 sensor when I was messing with the Allante stuff. I ended up removing it, but never disabled it in the tune.)
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 06-18-2021).]
That's one of the options considered. I have been given the names of 2 possible sources. First, it needs to be scanned with the proper scanner that was described, and if that reveals nothing, then a new harness might be in the future.
I need to chime in here as this is my car. I don't think my frustration level is being accurately conveyed.
When bought the car I was told that it did not have power to 1 set of injectors. That was traced to a questionable fuse block that was added in the power supply wiring for the injectors. From what I understand this car was done by the FF and wired by a "Rocket Surgeon" from Redstone. Not impressed with how this car is wired. Ever since that was repaired the car has not been right. Running rich, not running, not idling, when it runs there is power, no get up and go.
Every wire in the wiring harness has been checked and all check good with a multimeter. Sensors have been checked. ICM has been replaced. Cam sensor replaced. FPR replaced. Spark plugs replaced. ECM changed x2. Fan comes on at temperature. O2 sensor replaced. Fuel pressure steady. Timing set around 12*. Injectors replaced with Bosch Type3. Compression has been checked. Mechanical timing has been checked numerous times. Suspect vacuum lines replaced, no vacuum leaks have been found.
It does not make sense that the car will run and idle with A/B shorted but it will not idle smoothly when jumper is pulled.
I see a lot of check this, check that; everything that has been suggested has been checked and rechecked and then checked again. I also see suggestions of changing this part or that part. I am not replacing anymore parts on a hunch, it needs to be proved to be bad before I will replace it or spend another dime on it.
I need to chime in here as this is my car. I don't think my frustration level is being accurately conveyed.
When bought the car I was told that it did not have power to 1 set of injectors. That was traced to a questionable fuse block that was added in the power supply wiring for the injectors. From what I understand this car was done by the FF and wired by a "Rocket Surgeon" from Redstone. Not impressed with how this car is wired. Ever since that was repaired the car has not been right. Running rich, not running, not idling, when it runs there is power, no get up and go.
Every wire in the wiring harness has been checked and all check good with a multimeter. Sensors have been checked. ICM has been replaced. Cam sensor replaced. FPR replaced. Spark plugs replaced. ECM changed x2. Fan comes on at temperature. O2 sensor replaced. Fuel pressure steady. Timing set around 12*. Injectors replaced with Bosch Type3. Compression has been checked. Mechanical timing has been checked numerous times. Suspect vacuum lines replaced, no vacuum leaks have been found.
It does not make sense that the car will run and idle with A/B shorted but it will not idle smoothly when jumper is pulled.
I see a lot of check this, check that; everything that has been suggested has been checked and rechecked and then checked again. I also see suggestions of changing this part or that part. I am not replacing anymore parts on a hunch, it needs to be proved to be bad before I will replace it or spend another dime on it.
I can understand your frustration for sure, just know we are trying to assist not hinder. Not knowing the condition of your vehicle but trying to make sense of your issues, from my standpoint it looks like something is wrong with the harness. There are plenty of schematics to follow for a 4.9 harness. You could pull yours and go wire by wire........just a thought
Here was my solution for easy prom/memory changes. I used flash memory instead of an eprom. It could be said that the chip on the referenced engine has been corrupted but he already changed ECM's and had no improvement. IIRC I used 27SF512 flash memory in a Moates ZIF socket with a G1 memory adapter but I'll look all that up tomorrow.
Once again a good scan of the ECM should show if everything is hooked up and running correctly but it won't show bad grounds..
After giving the problem some thought, I'll go with Joes idea that the problem may lie in corruption of the program. I would not reuse the old eprom chip but go with a new Flash Memory chip using the Moates adapter and easy in/out ZIF socket as I did. This completely goes around the old chip, eliminates the process of trying to erase the old prom and reprogramming it while still attached to the memcal board. I always though that this was a sloppy way to reprogram but it does work in some cases. Additionally check for a solid engine grounds (engine block and chassis), and that the ignition module is mounted with a clean bottom on a perfectly clean plate with conductive heat sink grease.
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 07-04-2021).]
The MEMCAL programming can easily be verified if it is good or not. Of course you would need a burner and associated hardware.
1 thing you can try is toss in another MEMCAL (with original programming) and see if the scanner will get a reading then. The car will not run unless you have a physical VATS bypass. If someone you know has a burner (there is an adapter needed as well), I can check if I still have the modified code on my at home computer, you can then verify if the code on your is good (although there is a chance it could be different). Either way you can then erase the MEMCAL and reburn it.
Someone local has a burner and said he will dig everything out and get a chip to racer37. MM, he has probably all your schematics, provided by several who are active in or reading this thread. It's going to be a couple of weeks because racer is traveling.
I'll have a scanner in hand this weekend that is recommended above by 87convert and known to read the ECM.
I do have a couple different ones, but the differences are in spark advance and tires size correction
I was running a manual transmission, VATS enabled and stock tires sizes. If you have TunerCat (or other you will have to turn off the VATS flag if you don't have the bypass module). I may see if I still have TunerCat laying around and will update it with the change a bit later. There was some changes made to the RPM settings IIRC for manual transmission cars.
If someone wants to send me a MEMCAL I could burn it as well - however I am in Canada and it would probably be better if you can find someone more local so you don't have to deal with shipping/etc. I have an old OBD1 Auto X-ray scanner that also reads this ECM correctly.
NOTE: you need this to read/burn the MEMCAL - this works just fine as I have burned my MEMCAL many times testing different changes - just make the sure you get a good erase on it first (verify it is blank with the burner): http://www.moates.net/hdr6-...ut-header-p-246.html
NOTE2: your programming may differ, so if you use my file to compare it will fail. 1 setting that is different is all that is needed to fail. You will need a copy of the original file that was used. I know my file is good as I was using them.
Edit: found a file that has the VATS turned off (manual transmission - not sure about the tire size correction ATM, but assume stock tire sizes - I probably had this installed in my car at some point for testing): https://drive.google.com/fi...4Pi/view?usp=sharing
[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 07-08-2021).]
I think the individual who is providing the scanner and was going to burn a new chip is still reading this thread. All your info is foreign to me, but he understands it very well. The car is a manual transmission and I'm pretty sure it has stock tire sizes.
Another problem just popped up. I'm informed that the throttle cable just came loose at the accelerator pedal.
I think the individual who is providing the scanner and was going to burn a new chip is still reading this thread. All your info is foreign to me, but he understands it very well. The car is a manual transmission and I'm pretty sure it has stock tire sizes.
Another problem just popped up. I'm informed that the throttle cable just came loose at the accelerator pedal.
MM, Thanks for the files and info. I have that MEMCAL adapter around, somewhere, but I decided to solder a socket into the memcal, and go with removable chips instead.
I also use Tunercat. Using the NS1 definition file, but I may have one or two others. (Geez... there are only like seven of them, at least the last time I looked.) My bin is also set up for a manual trans. Tweaked the idle speed, etc. I also tweaked the DFCO "restore" (incorrectly, as it turns out, but that 's a minor issue) and fixed the "pig rich" issue that everyone used to complain about with the Allante setup. All I have to do is find my spare MEMCAL, and solder in a socket - same as I did with mine. I think I have everything else I need, handy, except for that. It's around somewhere. Just have to find it, after the move. I'm using 27SF512s. Erasing has never been an issue, since I don't need to use UV, but I always verify them, anyway. My left (front) O2 is enabled in my tune. It hasn't caused issues, but then everything else is working okay, so it hasn't been really detrimental. I'm going to turn it off in mine (just to make sure all my hardware is still working) and then turn it off in the one I'm doing for Scott. My tune has already been tweaked for tire diameter - essentially the same as stock Formula.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 07-08-2021).]
Okay... The MEMCAL with the socket soldered in was a no-go. So the reprogrammed chip is also a no-go. (Bringing it with me anyway.) The MEMCAL w/socket is obviously bad. Don't know exactly how/where, but I'll see if I can salvage it. Ran out of time tonight. (The one I put together for mine, years ago, works fine.)
BUT... It's really a non-issue anyway. The bin I was modifying for Scott's car already has the major change I thought I needed to do. (Deletion of the left/front O2.) This is the same way that my car and Scott's car are already set up. So the only thing he's losing out on are the removal of VATS (he should already have the module - otherwise it wouldn't run at all), removal of some automatic tranny codes (not a show stopper) and an increased idle speed. (The idle speed is the big deal, IMHO. The 4.9 idles at about 700 RPM. Way too low for a manual.) With all of that said, most of the Fiero Factory manual swaps ran okay on the stock (I think) bin anyway, so it should not be TOO much of an issue.
The good news is that the scanner is already set up to read the Caddy. It'll be coming with me.
The Fiero Store conversions used to remove the SES light bulb because they'd do no reprogramming. I had my harness taken apart and labelled back in the day and found some issues.
Definitely had to wire in 12v to the power steering input pin on the PCM. That helped a lot. I think the TPS wires were reversed. Got a custom burned prom to disable the BCM and pass-key.
I can't seem to kill the motor...but it did recently kill my getrag so I've started a 6-speed swap.
Sorry to hear that you are throwing in the towel. If the problem is definitely electrical/computer related, this can be solved by going to the Summit/FiTech self tuning, bolt on fuel injection system with a earlier Cadillac 4.1L intake manifold (that used the throttle body injection system). The price is $869-$899 for the entire system and it will support up to 500 HP .
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
If the problem is definitely electrical/computer related, this can be solved by going to the Summit/FiTech self tuning, bolt on fuel injection system with a earlier Cadillac 4.1L intake manifold (that used the throttle body injection system). The price is $869-$899 for the entire system and it will support up to 500 HP .
I do appreciate the advice, but as I have explained I am not spending any more money on this car
I do appreciate the advice, but as I have explained I am not spending any more money on this car
Totally understand the situation but perhaps the FiTech F.I. system can be a solution for the next owner of the car.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
