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CENTRIC 12862019L StopTech Sport; Drilled by jjd2296
Started on: 12-04-2016 12:30 PM
Replies: 12 (386 views)
Last post by: hyperv6 on 12-06-2016 01:26 PM
jjd2296
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Report this Post12-04-2016 12:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jjd2296Send a Private Message to jjd2296Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
anyone have these stop Tech drilled rotors on their car? are they worth it? full set costs 220 from rock auto.
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Report this Post12-04-2016 04:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shho13Click Here to Email Shho13Send a Private Message to Shho13Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have the StopTech slotted rotors in my 88. Not drilled... I've seen some nasty cracks in drilled rotors so I just went with slotted.

They are great. I would recommend them.


Left; StopTech (126.62044SL) Brake Rotor, Right; StopTech (126.62044SR) Brake Rotor

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[This message has been edited by Shho13 (edited 12-04-2016).]

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hyperv6
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Report this Post12-04-2016 07:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Do them only if you want to make make the brakes look better.

Holes do not stop any better than solid. Slots can clear debris and or water but add only a slight advantage.

Many people have the false notion that the holes add cooling. Even some companies and I think Stop Tech or Power Slot is one that claims it but it is not true. Here is the reasons why.

First Years ago pads needed to be out gassed. These were organic pads they they would do this. Today's pads do not out gas.

Second The rotors were drilled on race cars to make them lighter for un-sprung weight. Not for more cooling.

Third Many of today's brake MFG like Wilwood and EBC will tell you to avoid drilled rotors and if you do you them only use them for cosmetic reasons. This is why some MFG still put them on cars like Porsche etc.

Fourth. The key to brakes is heat transfer. You want to transfer more heat out of the pads and the rotors act as a heat sink. If you drill holes in the rotor it will reduce the amount of metal and they are unable to absorb and transfer more heat. The holes do give more surface area but in the end they do not make the rotors more efficient than they do with more metal for heat absorption.

Five Take a look at the best brakes in the world on the most current race cars. If you find holes in any rotors you will be lucky. The risk of cracks and the fact they do nothing for heat have eliminated them in NASCAR, Indy, F1, IMSA. Trans AM and most SCCA classes. Even in drag racing where weight was a factor they are becoming rare.

Today they use a slot or more often a little squiggle design engraved into the rotor to clean the pads of rubber and dust. They also come in use in the wet if the series races in the wet. The slots offer no cooling.

If you want better brakes upgrade to a Vented larger rotor and brake system. Just changing the rotors to these aftermarkets models is just cosmetic at best. If you open wheels they do look better but they make no real gains.

Note I work in the racing industry and have been thought tech classes with many of the top brake companies and component companies.

The one person that was the most open about this was the head man from EBS. He sat across the table from me and told me straight up how inferior drilled rotors are. He said I so sell slotted and dimpled because they make money but they do not stop any better. He told me if I wanted to stop just go with a goods OE sized or larger rotor that was solid.

We sell stop tech too. I think they had claimed that they help cool but the claim is unproven.

Also if you want more cooling put ducts and scoops on to channel the air to the rotor. odds are on the street it will never be a factor.

Being in the performance market I suspect we will see Ceramic aftermarket rotors at some point. They are expensive but I could see people going to them as they really work and transfer the heat better than anything. Also the pads and rotors last a very long time even with track time.

I know some will want to disagree but I do this for a living and I am not going to lie about it. I have heard it all in nearly 25 years and that is the truth from some of the best honest companies.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 12-04-2016).]

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cvxjet
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Report this Post12-04-2016 07:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hyper- Good post...Thank you for this info.

Also, I believe it was Brembo that was trying to develop in-expensive ceramic replacement rotors.....But the latest info was from 2009........
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post12-05-2016 10:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:

Do them only if you want to make make the brakes look better.

Holes do not stop any better than solid. Slots can clear debris and or water but add only a slight advantage.

Many people have the false notion that the holes add cooling. Even some companies and I think Stop Tech or Power Slot is one that claims it but it is not true. Here is the reasons why.

First Years ago pads needed to be out gassed. These were organic pads they they would do this. Today's pads do not out gas.

Second The rotors were drilled on race cars to make them lighter for un-sprung weight. Not for more cooling.

Third Many of today's brake MFG like Wilwood and EBC will tell you to avoid drilled rotors and if you do you them only use them for cosmetic reasons. This is why some MFG still put them on cars like Porsche etc.

Fourth. The key to brakes is heat transfer. You want to transfer more heat out of the pads and the rotors act as a heat sink. If you drill holes in the rotor it will reduce the amount of metal and they are unable to absorb and transfer more heat. The holes do give more surface area but in the end they do not make the rotors more efficient than they do with more metal for heat absorption.

Five Take a look at the best brakes in the world on the most current race cars. If you find holes in any rotors you will be lucky. The risk of cracks and the fact they do nothing for heat have eliminated them in NASCAR, Indy, F1, IMSA. Trans AM and most SCCA classes. Even in drag racing where weight was a factor they are becoming rare.

Today they use a slot or more often a little squiggle design engraved into the rotor to clean the pads of rubber and dust. They also come in use in the wet if the series races in the wet. The slots offer no cooling.

If you want better brakes upgrade to a Vented larger rotor and brake system. Just changing the rotors to these aftermarkets models is just cosmetic at best. If you open wheels they do look better but they make no real gains.

Note I work in the racing industry and have been thought tech classes with many of the top brake companies and component companies.

The one person that was the most open about this was the head man from EBS. He sat across the table from me and told me straight up how inferior drilled rotors are. He said I so sell slotted and dimpled because they make money but they do not stop any better. He told me if I wanted to stop just go with a goods OE sized or larger rotor that was solid.

We sell stop tech too. I think they had claimed that they help cool but the claim is unproven.

Also if you want more cooling put ducts and scoops on to channel the air to the rotor. odds are on the street it will never be a factor.

Being in the performance market I suspect we will see Ceramic aftermarket rotors at some point. They are expensive but I could see people going to them as they really work and transfer the heat better than anything. Also the pads and rotors last a very long time even with track time.

I know some will want to disagree but I do this for a living and I am not going to lie about it. I have heard it all in nearly 25 years and that is the truth from some of the best honest companies.



x 2 and I might add that there have been instances where drilled rotors have cracked under hard use. Its not a good situation when that happens,
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Report this Post12-05-2016 12:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yep...
Wilwood etc Sells drilled/slotted rotors only because many drivers want them and won't listen to reason.
Drilled, Slotted, or worse Both, won't cool the rotor and does nothing for performance for most users. Both can make stress points and stress can break the rotor.
Examples:
http://ebcbrakes.com/articl...ross-drilled-rotors/
http://oppositelock.kinja.c...ing-to-st-1688020147
https://www.google.com/sear...HY78DpkQsAQITg&dpr=1
Worse, Many companies doing either often do not have enough knowledge to design drill/slot rotors and drill/slot anywhere they think look good.

Cars w/ Solid rotors like 84-87 Fiero are thin to start and stress is more of a problem.
Thin rotors can dump brake heat for most driving much better then most people think. Original GA brake "upgrade" was only to cool better for race track use. (Page/site no longer exist and can't find old link etc to try INet Archives. Page w/ instruction isn't people that "discovered" it. Was never made for street use because looses Pbrake.)

Brake Fade is mostly cause by caliper and/or hydro problems. Brake fade for hills or racing can happen even with vented rotors etc. Truck w/ "Jake Brakes" (YT) is to help normal brakes to reduce wear but also doesn't overheat and fade out.
Cheap pads won't help brake performance either.

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[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 12-05-2016).]

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hyperv6
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Report this Post12-05-2016 01:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The primary issue with the solid Fiero rotors are the size. They are small and absorb a lot of heat but the size limits absorbsion.

It used to be the primary replacement pads were high metallic pads that stop well hot but cold they can be a little sluggish at best. I still have a set of these and they were MFG in Australia. I have the impression they were Girling pads re boxed under the local American name. That was common back then.

Might note Porsche has a drilled rotor from the factory but from what I have read they really are not drilled and are made a different way. They do not have crack issues like many aftermarket parts but they also do not cool any faster and are just for cosmetics there to.

Most major MFG will not recommend any track time on their drilled rotors.

You would think they would not offer them but the money is too good to turn away so they just issue quite warnings on their web sites and collect the money.

Another issue is the so called warped rotor issue. Many people think rotors warp and often spend a lot of money and never really solve the real issue. Drilled rotors and warped rotors are two of the most misunderstood things on a car today.
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jjd2296
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Report this Post12-05-2016 02:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jjd2296Send a Private Message to jjd2296Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
thnx guys great info, much appreciated!
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lou_dias
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Report this Post12-05-2016 06:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I uses vented cross-drilled scalloped rotors! Hahaha! But to save weight since my wheels are 17x10 315's...

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 12-05-2016).]

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theogre
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Report this Post12-05-2016 07:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:
Another issue is the so called warped rotor issue. Many people think rotors warp and often spend a lot of money and never really solve the real issue. Drilled rotors and warped rotors are two of the most misunderstood things on a car today.
"Warp" rotors are often cause by caliper and/or hydro problems too.

Example: 84-87 rear bakes are known to has problems and can cause "warped" rotors, boil brake fluid, ever fires.
I've turned and even replaced two or three times rear "warped" rotors... Cause was bad caliper pistons dragging the pads even after tried several brake adjustments. Even replace w/ rebuilt caliper had same problem after driving a year. I restored the brakes w/ brake recall kit (no longer available) and haven't had problems in years.

you might not feel the problem thru brake pedal because of power brakes but the car can have uneven brake performance trying to stop. Often More obvious at low speeds because behaves similar to anti-lock brakes active but slower modulation (often related to parallel surfaces problem) And/Or you can hear metal to metal noises when caliper etc move sideways when remove the brake pedal pressure to inch forward the car in slow traffic. (often related to rotor and/or wheel bearing runout problem.)

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 12-05-2016).]

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hyperv6
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Report this Post12-05-2016 08:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hyperv6:
Another issue is the so called warped rotor issue. Many people think rotors warp and often spend a lot of money and never really solve the real issue. Drilled rotors and warped rotors are two of the most misunderstood things on a car today.
"Warp" rotors are often cause by caliper and/or hydro problems too.

Example: 84-87 rear bakes are known to has problems and can cause "warped" rotors, boil brake fluid, ever fires.
I've turned and even replaced two or three times rear "warped" rotors... Cause was bad caliper pistons dragging the pads even after tried several brake adjustments. Even replace w/ rebuilt caliper had same problem after driving a year. I restored the brakes w/ brake recall kit (no longer available) and haven't had problems in years.

you might not feel the problem thru brake pedal because of power brakes but the car can have uneven brake performance trying to stop. Often More obvious at low speeds because behaves similar to anti-lock brakes active but slower modulation (often related to parallel surfaces problem) And/Or you can hear metal to metal noises when caliper etc move sideways when remove the brake pedal pressure to inch forward the car in slow traffic. (often related to rotor and/or wheel bearing runout problem.)

[/QUOTE]

Well that is a true issue but not warped rotors. It is really called RTV. Rotor Thickness Variation. The rotor does not warp but the run out is worn in. I know it is similar but warped generally implies the thickness is the same just out of run out. In this case the metal wears uneven.

Not trying to be nit pick but that is how the industry defines it.

One of the greatest causes for RTV is on today's positive off set wheel set ups. This is because many of today's cars use ball bearing vs roller tapers. It is hard to damage a roller taper but a ball bearing can be damaged very easily. I think if I recall .003 of play can let a rotor wobble enough that it will wear uneven and create RTV. If you note the complaints have risen much since the advent of these new hub bearings that are ball bearing on most cars. They went to them as they roll better and get better MPG but at the price of durability.

Another issue is the problem of modern brake material getting hot and embedding on one area of a rotor. This is like if you spilled a Coke on the floor and create a sticky spot and then try to slide across the floor in your socks. It grabs.

This is generally caused because few people ever bed or seat their pads in on their cars. This is a series of stops that will coat the rotor evenly with pad material and will help prevent this build up.

Unseated pads on a hard stop say on an off ramp can adhere to the rotor at the stop light at the end of the ramp. This material sticks to the rotor and creates a spot it will grab. Often once it starts it will add more material and get worse. In some cases it can even go away with general wear if it was not too pronounced.

Generally a light cut will clean it or a hit with a sanding disc lightly will clean them up. Racers often will have a set of very aggressive pad they will install to clean the rotors up in practice and then go to the race pads in a race.

But you can generally get rotors red hot and they will not warp. We have done it often on the race car and the rotors are never an issue.

I do agree hanging caliper pistons can be an issue but generally they just wear out a pad as it normally drags all the time. Some of today's cars also get corrosion build up under the stainless slides on the caliper bracket. This scale does not look like much but it will grow the cast steel to where the pads hang up and the caliper will drag the pad on the inside. Very common on many cars even my Malibu. I cleaned the brackets and painted them with a paint to stop the rust scale and it solved the issue. Many people have replaced other parts and missed the bracket scale. I did the first time till I was taught what to look for.

Brakes are very different today than in the past with the new bearings and pad materials. Many older mechanics fail to keep up and miss seating the pads in because with the old semi metallic it was not a problem. Same on the older roller bearings as they rarely failed. The new hubs are sealed and few people know they are ball bearings. Because they are even RWD cars are now using positive off set wheels to keep the weight centered.

My tech seminars have been a big help keep up since I am in the office much anymore. But at home working on my cars along with family and friends it helps me keep up with the changes.

The key to today's cars is just because it looks the same don't assume.
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Report this Post12-06-2016 12:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:
Well that is a true issue but not warped rotors. It is really called RTV. Rotor Thickness Variation. The rotor does not warp but the run out is worn in. I know it is similar but warped generally implies the thickness is the same just out of run out. In this case the metal wears uneven.

Not trying to be nit pick but that is how the industry defines it.

One of the greatest causes for RTV is on today's positive off set wheel set ups. This is because many of today's cars use ball bearing vs roller tapers. It is hard to damage a roller taper but a ball bearing can be damaged very easily. I think if I recall .003 of play can let a rotor wobble enough that it will wear uneven and create RTV. If you note the complaints have risen much since the advent of these new hub bearings that are ball bearing on most cars. They went to them as they roll better and get better MPG but at the price of durability.

Another issue is the problem of modern brake material getting hot and embedding on one area of a rotor. This is like if you spilled a Coke on the floor and create a sticky spot and then try to slide across the floor in your socks. It grabs.

This is generally caused because few people ever bed or seat their pads in on their cars. This is a series of stops that will coat the rotor evenly with pad material and will help prevent this build up.

Unseated pads on a hard stop say on an off ramp can adhere to the rotor at the stop light at the end of the ramp. This material sticks to the rotor and creates a spot it will grab. Often once it starts it will add more material and get worse. In some cases it can even go away with general wear if it was not too pronounced.

Generally a light cut will clean it or a hit with a sanding disc lightly will clean them up. Racers often will have a set of very aggressive pad they will install to clean the rotors up in practice and then go to the race pads in a race.

But you can generally get rotors red hot and they will not warp. We have done it often on the race car and the rotors are never an issue.

I do agree hanging caliper pistons can be an issue but generally they just wear out a pad as it normally drags all the time. Some of today's cars also get corrosion build up under the stainless slides on the caliper bracket. This scale does not look like much but it will grow the cast steel to where the pads hang up and the caliper will drag the pad on the inside. Very common on many cars even my Malibu. I cleaned the brackets and painted them with a paint to stop the rust scale and it solved the issue. Many people have replaced other parts and missed the bracket scale. I did the first time till I was taught what to look for.

Brakes are very different today than in the past with the new bearings and pad materials. Many older mechanics fail to keep up and miss seating the pads in because with the old semi metallic it was not a problem. Same on the older roller bearings as they rarely failed. The new hubs are sealed and few people know they are ball bearings. Because they are even RWD cars are now using positive off set wheels to keep the weight centered.

My tech seminars have been a big help keep up since I am in the office much anymore. But at home working on my cars along with family and friends it helps me keep up with the changes.

The key to today's cars is just because it looks the same don't assume.
1. RTV is called "Variance From Parallellism" "Thickness Variation (Parallelism)" etc in many service books including GM SM, Alldata, Raybestos and others and Why I posted "parallel surfaces problem" above.
2. Fiero and most FWD and 4WD cars had BB in OE hubs 30+ years ago mainly because their cheap to make, not because is better. 84-87 Fiero rear is BB, 88 Fiero both are BB. Only Aftermarket hubs maybe are sealed roller bearings. Depend who made them. Many AM w/ Rollers fails soon after install. Many don't last more then 1 year or 3 for normal driving.
3. Most problem for roller wheel bearings are cause by people working on them like Many morons will preload them and bearings soon fail. 84-87 FSM and others specifically say Do Not Preload the front wheel bearings but many just ignore or can't understand this.

MOST people lump RTV/Parallellism and Lateral Runout problems as a "warped" rotor including most ASE and other mechanics.
Metal Rotors and Rotor Hats can have either or both problems because metal can "warp" from abuse, uneven wheel stud torque, and more. (Crap stud torque can damage the wheel and/or hub too.)
1 abuse exampled: Many Rotors and Drums hate supporting load of vehicle weight when tire is off then let sitting on ground or worse a jack drops/fails and rotor/drum slams the floor. May look fine to whoever but very easy to fail Lateral Runout spec after the hit.

"Some of today's cars also get corrosion build up under the stainless slides on the caliper bracket. This scale does not look like much but it will grow the cast steel to where the pads hang up and the caliper will drag the pad on the inside. Very common on many cars even my Malibu. I cleaned the brackets and painted them with a paint to stop the rust scale and it solved the issue." I work on Kia and other w/ same SS parts too and yes is a big pain... Cleaning is fine. Paint is often not and worse can fail allowing more water and road salt to attack the bracket. Clean then use thin coat of silicon grease keep out crap and doesn't change bracket dimensions or wash out.

But is not new problem... Fiero brackets and calipers often need silicon where either hits the caliper or pad(s). Sliders and caliper holes need grease too or water and road salt can "weld" them into 1 part by corrosion.
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hyperv6
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Report this Post12-06-2016 01:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
#1 you are correct but it is still the same effect as the rotor is worn uneven it is not warped.

#2 they had BB because they roll better with less resistance. In other words they have less contact area and less resistance that equates to Better MPG. I never said they were better quality. My point was they are more easily damaged or worn hence the many more brake issues since they came about. What cars use can vary a little but most today are BB hubs.

#3 yes some are install damage but even just hitting a curb in the snow or parking can add enough play that they can create brake issues. Most MFG have very low tolerance.

Cast metal can warp but it is very rare. Often there are some specific applications that deal with this some being Honda that are at risk.

The corrosion issues I speak of is different as the Fiero is a contact one. The newer cars use a stainless slide that inserts into the caliper bracket. the pads sit in this and when the corrosion builds it pressed up the stainless insert and wedges the pad in place.

The brakes on the Malibu are used on most mid sized GM cars. Most Delta platforms too even the Solstice and Sky kappa used many of the same parts. Rotors would vary but many of the other parts were shared.

Calipers can hang up many ways as many of them are hung very differently. Then you have piston issues and other issues that are specific to some models.

One could debate brakes all day and find a nuance to make a point. But I have stated some basics here. The whole point was to show why many of todays cars get brake pulse and how it keeps coming back as people address the symptom and not the cause.

Most major brakes companies out line this in their tech area on their web sites and explain better than I can here.

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