I got an email today from my friend Bill down in Washington State. Some of you here will know him.
Bill's lucky to be alive, or at least lucky not to have gotten injured in a serious car mishap... while driving his yellow '88 Formula.
Here's what Bill had to say in his email to me. (I got his permission to re-print it here.)
quote
This happened while six people (I was alone in my Formula) in four of our Fiero's were doing our North Cascades run - and this happened as we were heading west back to our side of the Cascades, just after going over Washington & Rainy Passes on State Route 20 (also known as the North Cascades Highway) - which closes when we get our first snowfall, until spring when the road is cleared for driving. The fall colors are really pretty on this run. It was raining at the time.
We were passing by a guard rail when suddenly, the front passenger side of my car dipped downward, the car began a clockwise spin moving toward the guard rail, which ended before the car made contact. I estimate the spin was approximately 200 degrees (just over a half turn) and continuing to move off the side of the road, and the car was backwards when the passenger side of the car connected/scraped past the end of the next guard rail which stopped the spin – and since I was trying to push the brake pedal through the floor, the 3 remaining upright wheels were sliding in the damp grass until the car stopped about 35 feet past that end of that guard rail. Our speed was estimated at 45 to maybe 50 MPH when this started to happen and 4 seconds later the car was at a complete stop with the middle of the rear bumper against about a 6 inch diameter tree trunk. When I say remaining wheels, that is not completely accurate, the passenger front wheel was there too – but it was canted outward at the bottom almost 45 degrees.
I have to say, I was very lucky and none the worse for wear – this could have been much worse. Had that 6 inch diameter tree trunk not been there to help stop the car, it might have slid another 10 feet, and over the bank and down toward the river. If the slide angle had been different – more away from the road, the car would have gone over the side and down toward the river. If the break that started this had happened a second later, the rear of the car might have rear-ended directly into the end of the guard rail and who knows what would have happened then.
You might wonder why I say 4 seconds? I was using my Go-Pro Camera and filming at the time. Unfortunately the mount just sat on the dash, so I only got the spin portion recorded, because when the car hit & started to slide along the end of the guard rail, the camera slid off onto the passenger seat, but it was still recording, pointed up toward the windshield. Looking at the video later, I could see the time when the front dropped and then when the motion in the car completely stopped – 4 seconds later.
I will not bore you with all the details, other than to say my car went the remaining distance home on a flatbed tow truck – about 165 miles. The turning knuckle had broken in half allowing the bottom of the wheel to splay outward, dropping the front low enough to create a lot of drag on that corner and coupled with the wet road, that drag was more than the other 3 tires could counter, and the spin started. The actual damage to the passenger side was extensive (even though it did not seem like it – plastic hides the inner damage) and the car is gone to a salvage yard.
Following are some images Bill sent me with his words describing them.
"You can see the scrub marks in the dirt made as the car was spinning."
"If you look at the dark place about 2 long steps behind me, that was a dropoff going down to the river about 100 feet below."
"Notice the black space behind the tree that actually stopped the backwards motion - again, a dropoff down to the river."
"This shows the position of the wheel once the car came to rest."
"If you look closely at the end of the guard rail, you will see yellow paint from the side of my car, rear fender a bit, a lot from the door, and the front fender, just a few spots."
"The rest are mostly pictures of the broken part."
I think Bill is quite lucky not to have sustained an injury... or worse!
I've posted this because I'm very glad Bill's okay... and I want to know what the heck happened to the front knuckle !!!
Any ideas?
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-23-2015).]
Maybe that side had been run into a curb in the past leaving a hairline crack that eventually caused a total failure?
Great minds think alike. This is what I said to Bill in my email response to him earlier this afternoon...
quote
Why the heck would the knuckle have broken? I wonder if it ever received a bad jolt earlier in its lifetime (such as sliding hard into a curb) and getting cracked?
It appears to be caused by hub failure, note the new cotter pin so that hub may have been replaced. The knuckle was compromised by the force of the wheel during braking, this causes flexing at the spindle the hub bolts were probably over torqued causing a hairline fracture in the knuckle. Note the threads are stripped so it was flexing due to in and out movement that is occasionally found in some Chinese made replacement hubs for the 88 models like the ones AutoZone sells. The back and forth flexing eventually caused the knuckle to fail once braking or steering force was applied.
That's interesting how it sheared the end off the suspension crossmember. It's hard to tell from just a couple photos, but it looks like the knuckle failed around the bolt holes for the bearing/hub unit. In the one photo, the crack on the left looks "old". It seems to have rust stains and some carbon buildup in the crack. But the crack on the right side of the photo looks fresh. The crack at the one bolt hole probably put extra stress on the metal around the other bolt hole, causing that to eventually break.
To make a long story short, the knuckle was a ticking time bomb. And it finally went off. Sorry to hear about that.
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 10-23-2015).]
Glad he wasnt hurt, a little to the left or a little to the right could have been alot worse! Did he take a wood post off the end of that rail with him?
First... I'm happy that Bill is okay. Next... Yeeeow! I have never seen a knuckle fail in that manner. (I even had a parts car that was driven into a dirt bank, on that corner. All it did was "oval" the hole where the ball joint stud passes through.) I might speculate that the bolts were over-tightened, which caused the initial crack, but I agree, it looks like at least one of the cracks was very old.
It occurs to me.. Isn't there an error in the Helm shop manual that specifies some astronomical torque value for these very bolts?! Maybe someone tried to follow that spec, at some point. (I could be mistaken. It could be the rear hubs.)
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 10-23-2015).]
First... I'm happy that Bill is okay. Next... Yeeeow! I have never seen a knuckle fail in that manner. (I even had a parts car that was driven into a dirt bank, on that corner. All it did was "oval" the hole where the ball joint stud passes through.) I might speculate that the bolts were over-tightened, which caused the initial crack, but I agree, it looks like at least one of the cracks was very old.
It occurs to me.. Isn't there an error in the Helm shop manual that specifies some astronomical torque value for these very bolts?! Maybe someone tried to follow that spec, at some point. (I could be mistaken. It could be the rear hubs.)
Glad no one was injured. I'd be tempted to pull that entire knuckle assembly and maybe even the control arms off to do a thorough post mortem. Our cars are getting pretty old and who knows what kind of hidden damage they could have endured over their life - only to have a catastrophic failure later.
Our Fiero's are so old, that you need to know the history the car has, or completely inspect it. For those who don't, you can expect things like this to happen.
Every time my car is in the air, I'm looking for something that could go wrong. If it's suspect, it gets replaced.
I think there was prior damage, also, both from thevblook and what happened.
Doesn't everyone look for problems on their car, regardless of age, when the car is on the lift?
It's a shame for this one to go to the bone yard. I saw RD end links, a nice body, and nice rims. The rack could probably be rebuilt, and most of the rest of the car was probably OK. Unless it had cancer, it was probably salvageable.
Originally posted by Khw: Metal fatigue? Maybe that side had been run into a curb in the past leaving a hairline crack that eventually caused a total failure?
Hitting too many or just one big hole/curb can start this.
If hub was replace at some point then could be too much torque for bolts. Torque Spec is for Clean Dry treads. Loctite blue and red will lube the threads then whoever torque to spec is way over torqued.
Or if the car was lowered. Low cars are famous for blowing BJ but have a knuckle fail is very possible.
Can start hours, days, weeks, etc, then fails completely. You might find where the crack started by looking for rust.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Wow. Now there's something you thankfully don't see every day! Maybe rust growth where the bearing resides inside the knuckle caused hoop stress which blew the knuckle ring apart from the inside out.
Glad everyone is OK!!
[This message has been edited by FTF Engineering (edited 10-23-2015).]
If one can walk away from an accident like this without injury that's very positive news. I also embrace the failure theory on metal fatigue caused by a large pothole and /or a previous hard hit on a curb. Was this car ever auto crossed or road raced? As for the hubs they also looked like they let go. If these were Chinese bearing hubs, the reports online about them are very unfavorable, but the choice of suppliers of 88 front hubs is probably very minimal.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
First, thanks Patrick for posting this. Thank you all for your kind and informative comments. I hated to lose this car, but . . . . A bit of history on this Formula - it was completely rebuilt by me - the front hubs were from Rodney Dickman - he had a batch made quite a few years ago and I bought 2 sets at the time, still have 1 set for my last Fiero (spares) '88GT. The car was not lowered, ball joints, tie rod ends and sway bar standoffs were all from Rodney. The rack had been rebuilt as well, and new shocks installed. Brakes were in good shape with flexible stainless steel brake lines. It had never been autocrossed, but had been run for 3 different 1 hours sessions, one day at Seattle Raceway, several years ago. Generally I am not a hard driver, not pushing the car for all it's worth. I just like to drive Fiero's, and we all like to drive on curvy roads with them, right? The guard rail was broken like that and the end bent from a previous accident. All my car did to the guard rail was leave paint on the bent end. The fact that it had been just hanging out there in space may have been a good thing, as it was pretty flexible. The 1st post was already missing and the rail was not attached to the next 5 or 6 of the posts. So when it hit that inside part of the end of the guard rail, the rear fender was scraped, then it pretty much caught the trailing edge of the door - where there used to be a 1/8 inch gap, it was from 1/2 to almost a full inch gap and took off a lot of paint, right down to the SMC underneath in places and there was something wrong with the rear part of that front fender. Suprisingly, the door would open and close - if I slammed it hard enough. The window would not roll down. I have had some other Fiero's that had damage to the door hinge support pillar in the past, and I was pretty sure that this one was bent, toward the front of the vehicle and inward slightly. Repairable, probably, but the cost to fix that, and a paint job - in my opinion would have cost more than the car was worth (to me). It had an excellent brown interior, lots of upgrades to lighting - LED side marker lights using two rows of lights, the full length of the side marker lights, sequential brake lights (3 bulbs, not just 2) LED 3rd brake light too. Everything worked, A/C, trunk release and the paint was original, so it was showing signs of it's age - and that yellow color really looks good when it is new paint. My visual assessment of the knuckle that failed corresponds with what some of you have deduced. There was evidence of the 2 bolt hole areas failing together. One side of the crack on each break was quite rusty - and on the other side was a fresh break. It is my opinion that the two were cracked - when is unknown, but the rust build up was enough to convince me it had been that way for quite awhile, as eluded to by others on this thread. My GoPro video shows that front corner just dropping - and the passenger in the Fiero following said she saw the wheel kicked out at the bottom. Because the road was wet, the other 3 wheels lost traction pretty quickly due to the drag produced spin by that front wheel at the impossible angle and the lower A-Frame sliding on the pavement. I agree with those of you that said I was pretty lucky! You are very correct, when it happened and the path the car took coming to a complete stop against that 6 inch tree trunk, 4 seconds after the break, was miraculous. I know the Good Lord was watching out for me that day.
Originally posted by dobey: You really need to work on your phrasing there, ogre.
Is my translator software... Ogrish to English is very hard to do. Many things don't have English words. (My one hand typing doesn't help and Nuance Dragon Speaking isn't much better for posting tech info/data.)
Believe it or not, this phenomenon of "front end suddenly dropping" is not unknown to 84-87's. They too have been know to have the same end result...only in their case it's sheared off lower ball joints. I have seen a thread or two on this and I have seen it with my own eyes. It happened at Westfest 2007 in Monterey. A guy in an 86 GT was going to the restaraunt after the show, made a leisurely turn at a side road and the front drivers side wheel suddenly shoved/jammed itself up into the top of the wheel well. They had to drag that sucker onto a flatbed using wood as wedges. (no kidding) Kit
Originally posted by Kitskaboodle: Believe it or not, this phenomenon of "front end suddenly dropping" is not unknown to 84-87's. They too have been know to have the same end result...only in their case it's sheared off lower ball joints. I have seen a thread or two on this and I have seen it with my own eyes. It happened at Westfest 2007 in Monterey. A guy in an 86 GT was going to the restaraunt after the show, made a leisurely turn at a side road and the front drivers side wheel suddenly shoved/jammed itself up into the top of the wheel well. They had to drag that sucker onto a flatbed using wood as wedges. (no kidding)
Many other cars too. Car weight is trying to separate the Front Lower BJ 24/7 to start. Is just how all Fiero and others car are made. Hitting pot holes etc can start stress cracks. Lower cars can hit the bump stops often is just hitting the BJ w/ a big hammer every time does not help.
Pretty good outcome considering the guard rail could just as easily have impacted in the middle of the car... I'm surprised it's being scrapped though - haven't we seen much worse rebuilt?
[This message has been edited by David Hambleton (edited 10-24-2015).]
Wow Bill very sorry your nice coupe is totaled and that you were kept from serious harm. Isn't this the same one that lost the top strut bolt on our Long Beach run? You have nine lives my friend and that Cascade run gave me white knuckles for sure. Hope you were able to salvage many parts.
This would be another thread to start a rank in, about road conditions in the USA, which are eating up vehicles we spend a lot of money for, not just our Fiero's.
I can only speak for lower Michigan, but I think things have gotten worse for most States. The road conditions in my normal area of travel are still growing worse, they can't keep up with the deterioration that has resulted in the past 10 years, from lack of maintenance (due to recession). It's one of the main reasons I haven't driven my 88 GT, or bought a new car in the last 2 years. Suspension systems are getting terribly abused by these road conditions. Most vehicles are not designed to handle chuck holes that are deep enough to almost tear a wheel off a car, and they don't do aggressive testing for that at proving grounds. In addition to that the entire vehicle gets the shock treatment, which over time loosens many fasteners creating other problems.
Ball joints, especially the lowers get repeated loading extremes as a result of bad roads (including railroad crossings). Here in Michigan this summer, they even tried to pass an additional gas tax at the pump for road repairs, which was voted down. The reason is was voted down, is that we're all ready taxed to death, and State couldn't explain what happened to all the tax dollars already collected for roads over the last 10 years.
One of the guys in our club had a lower ball joint to break, a few years ago. This was the 88 GT "Warrior Project" that our club just donated, this past summer. Obviously, the car survived a bit better than Bill's. (Very sorry, Bill. Again, I'm glad you're okay.)
We we just down South for RFTH, south of the state line the roads improve, and south of the Ohio River the roads are great!
I would guess that would be the case, it's the northern States subjected to freeze and thaw subjected to Winter that is the issue. Still no excuse for Michigan not fixing roads.
Originally posted by California Kid: ... . Here in Michigan this summer, they even tried to pass an additional gas tax at the pump for road repairs, which was voted down. The reason is was voted down, is that we're all ready taxed to death, and State couldn't explain what happened to all the tax dollars already collected for roads over the last 10 years.
Rant over, hope roads are better in your area.
This is a national crisis in the US at least. Because instead of gas tax being a percentage they are a finite number of cents on top of the price of gas. So with gas prices increasing dramatically over the past 10 years there has been zero political interest in raising gas taxes. But people have responded by getting more fuel efficient cars and buying less gas. Electric cars and hybrids only make it worse. So eventually all the roads will crumble due to lack of funds or a national road tax will have to be instituted.
This is a national crisis in the US at least. Because instead of gas tax being a percentage they are a finite number of cents on top of the price of gas. So with gas prices increasing dramatically over the past 10 years there has been zero political interest in raising gas taxes. But people have responded by getting more fuel efficient cars and buying less gas. Electric cars and hybrids only make it worse. So eventually all the roads will crumble due to lack of funds or a national road tax will have to be instituted.
We are already so overtaxed and you feel that we need more taxes? Look at your paycheck. Here the government comes in and confiscates 30-50% your money without ever asking. Then everywhere you go and everything that you buy you pay tax on. Take a look at your cell phone bill and see how much of it is tax, then look at all of your other utility bills. If you feel that the taxes are too low, just send in your entire paycheck. As for myself I am against taxes, all taxes.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: We are already so overtaxed and you feel that we need more taxes? Look at your paycheck. Here the government comes in and confiscates 30-50% your money without ever asking. Then everywhere you go and everything that you buy you pay tax on. Take a look at your cell phone bill and see how much of it is tax, then look at all of your other utility bills. If you feel that the taxes are too low, just send in your entire paycheck. As for myself I am against taxes, all taxes.
Feel free to move to Italy, Sweden, or any of a number of other countries then, if you think our taxes are too high.
If you're against taxes, then you should sell your cars, and never drive on public roadways again. Never go to any public event. Don't be thankful to the police who stopped a robbery, or the fireman who saved your house from burning down, by putting out the fire when the house next door lights aflame. Don't ever buy a lottery ticket. No walks in the park. Taxes are a necessity of any civilized community; whether you like it or not.
I don't like paying taxes more than anyone else, but when it comes to better roads I would gladly pay more out of my check or in gas tax to support better roads. What's the alternative? All our suspension parts break and more people killed?
I don't like paying taxes more than anyone else, but when it comes to better roads I would gladly pay more out of my check or in gas tax to support better roads. What's the alternative? All our suspension parts break and more people killed?
Well, without taxes I guess nobody would be driving, since fuel would probably be incredibly expensive, given there wouldn't be any military (which gets astronomically more funding from taxes than any roads do), and thus F-18s, Apaches, or Predators to go screw up the Middle East with, and keep oil prices low for the US.
Go outside the US to almost anywhere else, and you'll find they pay almost 4x the price we do, for fuel. Even in those horrible socialist European countries, where people pay 80% taxes.
Feel free to move to Italy, Sweden, or any of a number of other countries then, if you think our taxes are too high.
If you're against taxes, then you should sell your cars, and never drive on public roadways again. Never go to any public event. Don't be thankful to the police who stopped a robbery, or the fireman who saved your house from burning down, by putting out the fire when the house next door lights aflame. Don't ever buy a lottery ticket. No walks in the park. Taxes are a necessity of any civilized community; whether you like it or not.
Yes they are a necessity but the problem is misuse. Such as before I left California they were trying to increase the gas tax again, but why? Well the BIG part is all the misuse of registration fees paid. They used that money which was supposed to pay for road repairs and improvements to instead pay for something that had nothing to do with roads. Then to top it off, to push their pro hybrid/electric stance, they did something like cash for clunkers and gave new buyers money to buy a hybrid/electric vehicle plus tax breaks. These vehicles of course required much less fuel as already mentioned so they spent a lot of money to get these vehicles on the roads which in return reduced the money they were taking in from gasoline taxes while not reducing wear and tear on the roads. Roads were going to hell, and 5 years ago when I visited they hadn't gotten any better. People are pissed because the money that should have been used for fixing the roads was earmarked for other things and rather than using the money coming in from registration and current taxes they want to increase taxes and leave those earmarks in place. Oddly enough, California was re-evaluating the tax breaks offered for hybrid/electric vehicles and ending the state funded discount for buying them because they apparently "hadn't envisioned the decrease in taxes that would result".
Anyways, that's my experience from when I lived in California. Here they recently changed the gas tax to a percent based system that went in effect July 1st of this year. It's currently 10.5% per US gallon and I think it increases a little on January 1st of 2016. That's up from a fixed 8.5 cents per US gallon. I don't mind the increase as the roads here are WAY better than those I drove on in California. But then, like you I understand taxes are necessary but I can also see the outcry when current fees and taxes are being misused. I don't know if that's the situation where he lives but I have lived somewhere where that situation existed. It sucks when you are driving on crappy roads because the government chose to use the money that should have fixed them to pay for something it was never meant to pay for such as paying for illegal immigrants to go to college or something.
The other alternative is toll-roads. Every new highway under construction here is a toll-road and with automated toll collection there could come a day when every single road you drive on is a toll road. You will look fondly back on the gas tax when that kicks in. Each trip through the toll plaza is $3+ even when they are only a few miles apart.
This would be another thread to start a rank in, about road conditions in the USA, which are eating up vehicles we spend a lot of money for, not just our Fiero's.
I can only speak for lower Michigan, but I think things have gotten worse for most States. The road conditions in my normal area of travel are still growing worse, they can't keep up with the deterioration that has resulted in the past 10 years, from lack of maintenance (due to recession). It's one of the main reasons I haven't driven my 88 GT, or bought a new car in the last 2 years. Suspension systems are getting terribly abused by these road conditions. Most vehicles are not designed to handle chuck holes that are deep enough to almost tear a wheel off a car, and they don't do aggressive testing for that at proving grounds. In addition to that the entire vehicle gets the shock treatment, which over time loosens many fasteners creating other problems.
Ball joints, especially the lowers get repeated loading extremes as a result of bad roads (including railroad crossings). Here in Michigan this summer, they even tried to pass an additional gas tax at the pump for road repairs, which was voted down. The reason is was voted down, is that we're all ready taxed to death, and State couldn't explain what happened to all the tax dollars already collected for roads over the last 10 years.
Rant over, hope roads are better in your area.
I just replaced a lower ball joint that the PO installed 3 or so years ago. Why? the rotten roads and streets here in West Michigan! You wont believe the holes I have hit over the past several years here in Grand Rapids. When they hit it makes a bang! Replaced the other one 2 years ago and I suspect it. Replaced the front crossmember last year. The rack a year before that. Our roads in Michigan are real bad! NO they suck!
I just replaced a lower ball joint that the PO installed 3 or so years ago. Why? the rotten roads and streets here in West Michigan! You wont believe the holes I have hit over the past several years here in Grand Rapids. When they hit it makes a bang! Replaced the other one 2 years ago and I suspect it. Replaced the front crossmember last year. The rack a year before that. Our roads in Michigan are real bad! NO they suck!
They will eat up a car and you have no chance of getting any settlement from the State for damage done. I think it's one of main reasons large SUV's are selling well here in Michigan, they can take the road abuse a bit better.
The guard rail was broken like that and the end bent from a previous accident. All my car did to the guard rail was leave paint on the bent end. The fact that it had been just hanging out there in space may have been a good thing, as it was pretty flexible. The 1st post was already missing and the rail was not attached to the next 5 or 6 of the posts. I know the Good Lord was watching out for me that day.
This is what I said to Bill in my email response to him earlier this afternoon...
.
