I'm not sure how I feel about Lucas oil. It seems to simply raise the viscosity of oil and I've seen it cause problems with lifters.
As far as synthetic versus regular, it's odd but synthetic can cause leaks. Those leaks however should be addressed anyway so in the end it's not as huge a deal if it's a car you want to restore. My concern is the price of synthetic versus the benefit. Oil when changed at 6k miles does about as good as it can get.
Why does that ZDDP say it was banned due to cat life. Oil shouldn't really affect the cat and a cat is in theory self cleaning anyway. I guess one could assume that zinc deposits wouldn't burn off so could reduce the effectiveness of the cat but that seems a stretch.
With today oils and flat tappet lifters you need a oil with a rich zinc base to preserve the cam.
The oils today that you need to look for are oils like Mobil One 15W50. The Phosphorus content is 1200 PPM and the Zinc is 1300 PPM. Both are needed for long cam life on flat tappets. If you have a newer engine with roller lifters it is not as much an issue but older engines need the Phosphorus and Zinc to live. They make additives but many do not mix well and are only good for breaking in a cam. In long term use could damage the converter too.
Also if you are not using a synthetic you should be as it is the best oil you can get today.
I work in the performance aftermarket and we deal with a lot of different engines and many needs of flat tappet cams and you need to make sure you take care in oil choices today or you will wipe a cam out. I see it often and many even on break in fail t use the right oils.
You need to do the home work check the Phosphorus and Zinc content and make sure you have It right as in time you will damage the engine. These tow elements have been removed because the sensors on the new cars can be damaged by them so they have changed up the oils. It may look the same but things are not like they used to be.
Synthetic oil is just the best you can buy and for what you can buy it for at Wal Mart there is no excuse on it costing to much anymore. Also you can run it longer as it does not break down. GM and most major performance brands use nothing but Mobile One. It is the only oil recommend for the harsh informant of my Turbo HHR. It deals daily with 23 PSI of boost and 300 HP out of 2.0 liters.
If you have a fear of oil leaks or have issues with such just use the Mobile One for high mileage cars as it has additives that treat the seals and gaskets to help keep the oil from getting by. Synthetic oils molecules are smaller and can pass through seals that conventional oils do not. But the high mileage oils deal with this to remove that old myth that you can not use it.
The key to oil use today is to keep up with the technology as it is a whole different ball game compared to 10 years ago.
The 15W50 Mobile in high mileage or not I recommended buy most performance sources for older cars stock or modified. It has all the protection you will need.
Other oils than Mobile One should have a similar offering but you will need to go to their web site and do your home work to check the content of the needed content of the oil.
Just because It says Mobil One on the bottle does not mean each type is the same. Same for Castrol and any other brand. It is not a one bottle does it all anymore.
There are a few military installations near me and I've heard a few techs talk about it. I knew a navy person who claimed to know about the mythical CSL even. He exaggerates a lot though so I can't be sure.
There are a few military installations near me and I've heard a few techs talk about it. I knew a navy person who claimed to know about the mythical CSL even. He exaggerates a lot though so I can't be sure.
Generally if you are not having any issues and use the proper oil there is no need for an additive. Now if you have a damaged or dying engine it may prolong it. You do have to be careful as not all oils combine with other products well and can sludge up or damage the oils properties.
One I know works if you get a gummed up engine is Marvel Mystery oil. Now it is not a real mystery as it is bases on linseed oil. We had a Corvair that has not run in near 40 years with only 7,000 miles and was having the valves stick. We added this to the oil and ran it for a while and it freed up the valves and no more issues. Now we did not leave it in there and changed the oil after running it for a while. You also can use it in a fuel system too as it will help clean up carburetors and stuck injectors. It is a mild cleaner that does the job and does not damage anything around it. There are other products that work too but you have to be careful as not all work well and some are down right snake oil. But if it ain't broke don't fix it and just use a proper oil and change it regularly and you will be fine.
Here is a web site with lots of good info on modern oils.
Now some folks treat oil like Religion and Politics and many are misguided in several ways on the web. It is key today to get the most up to date tech info as like I have said things have changed on the last 10 years a lot. Also the oils today are much more advanced as ever. I personally have used Royal Purple and Mobil one to great effect. but there are many other great oils out there. The key is to know what standards the oil meets and what it will do.
It is much like brakes anymore just because you can change pads does not mean you know how to properly change brakes anymore. Today many of todays cars have issues with brake pulse and many people incorrectly claim it to be cheap rotors and warp. They fix it only to have it return. Today there is a lot of issues with rotor thickness variation due to hub and rotor run out. Most cars today use ball bearing hubs over the roller tapper bearings and the can get out of spec easy. .001 or more is enough to create issues. Yet few people check run out or know how to deal with it even many good mechanics since they are behind on new issues of today. The key to many of todays cars is keeping up with the changes as while many things look the same they are no longer treated the same.
Just wait till some of you get into Direct Injection Fuel Injection where injector pressures are no 30 pound but 2000 pounds. Also the lines on the high pressure side are one time use. There is a lot to learn there even though it looks similar to the past.
Is the concensus to use Mobile 1? I've always been told that Penzoil puts too much emphasis on cleaning and sacrafices protection. I've know people to use it yearly for a 1k mile clean up actually.
I've seen videos of Restore actually restoring compression but how I can't be sure. It may be too much to use all the time though.
I've been using Valvoline 5w 30w blend (half and half) for the last two years. Car had 82K when I bought it, now has 95K and no leaks. Change it between 5K and 6K miles. Only difference I see is when car is up to temperature, oil pressure is around 40- 45 psi at idle. It also starts very easy in below 0 temperature.
Synthetics are great with their resistance to heat. They also have harsher solvents. I wouldnt put synthetic in any engine with lots of miles on it...your asking for leaks. I know for a personal fact Mobile One is the WORST for sprouting leaks. Now, it is correct it DONT CAUSE the leaks, but its solvents are so aggressive if you have any sign of a leak...it will attack it vigorously. Ive seen engines that didnt leak at all till the owner believed the hype on Mobile One...mostly older Corvette owners. One in particular didnt leave any oil on his garage floor for years in a low mile 61. He got a new Corvette and changed the 61 to the Mobile too. Within weeks, it was leaking so bad you could actually watch it drip out of everywhere. It leaked out the valve covers, oil pan, front and rear mains. It got to using over a quart a week going to car shows. It leaked a puddle on his garage floor 2' across. He had to rebuild the engine in order to replace every seal. That was the worse one. I use Castrol synthetic in my Sebring since its first change and no problems. I dont use synthetic in the motorhome because I dont know its full history, even though it has low miles. Synthetics cost twice as much as regular, but you can go at least twice as far between changes...so the points moot. I just got a change kit on sale...5 quarts Castrol Synthetic + K&N filter for $30.
I have been using it in my Fiero for nearly 20 years and the only leak I have is the same one I had on conventional oil at the real main seal. Back then the cars leaked no matter what you did.
You can read below on the myth of leaks. Generally If someone has a leak it is because the gaskets were already damaged and in need of repair. They do recommend high mileage Mobil One in cars with leaks. The molecules are smaller in synthetic oils and they can leak in some damaged gasket more easily. The high mileage will deter that. Again you need to know your oils.
As for the 15W50 it flows fine and will not have any issues.
The truth is most oils are generally good. Note most are blended to SAE standards and all meet similar needs. The key is to read the fine print on the oils per the application you have.
Click on product guide in this screen and it gives the spec's on all their oils.
Even If you think you know oils I would recommend reading up on this site as the general principals apply to all oils. I am sure you will learn something here no matter who you are.
The fact is most oils are good and like I said people treat them like religions or politics. The key is Oils are blended to SAE and other standards that pretty much make them all pretty similar. It is like a Ruler they all are to the same 12 inch standard and only the material they are made out of varies a little and generally they are pretty good. The key is to be smart enough to use the right type of oil and to use it properly for the vehicle at hand. Years ago one oil would do everything and today many cars are engineered to use specific oils for specific engines or models.
Case in point the new Dexos oils in GM cars are engineer to GM standards as GM and other auto companies are using oils for more than keeping the bearings and rings in the engine. Today they are cooling pistons with them, using the engine oil to control the Variable Valve Timing and also lubing and cooling Turbo bearings. I have all three of these in my 2.0 Turbo alone. Other engines have other features that relay on the oil to other things than just that.
I would recommend reading all the Faq on the Mobil site and even visit the other oil sites as like I have stated things are not like they used to be. Also there is a lot of BS and old myths that get propagated on forums that die hard. Oils and Brakes today are the two most often misunderstood and misrepresented parts of the car any more from what I see on web sites. I even see good mechanics that have been at it for years mess up because the changes have come and they did not keep up. I deal with a lot of warranty claims on Cams. The first thing I ask is did you use a break I additive for the cam and too often I hear, What? Many of todays auto products have changed more in the last 20 years than in the last 60 years. This includes even tires.
I will post things but when I do you can fine a MFG that will back it up as these are not my opinions they are the statements of the MFG. So if anyone wants to disagree take it up with the MFG.
hyperv6, (or anyone else too) what are your thoughts on Mos2, or moly, perhaps instead of adding zinc. Or running a diesel rated oil that has moly already in it.
hyperv6, (or anyone else too) what are your thoughts on Mos2, or moly, perhaps instead of adding zinc. Or running a diesel rated oil that has moly already in it.
Zinc level is assuming you still need zinc. It's possible that the oils don't need it. I've seen some claim that they don't but mobil one still uses it.
Maybe it's like lead in that reformulations have made it less vital.
Does zinc destroy catalytic converters? If so doesn't it harm other areas?
"What was discovered through oil testing by several engine component manufacturers is that many older engines experience a short period of time during engine start-up where critical lubrication is insufficient between metal-to-metal lubrication points when using modern oils with reduced amounts of ZDDP/ZDTP. These same enhancers unfortunately have their downside: The phosphorus in this compound creates carbon buildup in engine bores and valvetrains, and both compounds can also lead to the early demise of catalytic converters. For this reason, the industry has been phasing out zinc and phosphorus levels since 1994, when the American Petroleum Institute’s SH designation became the industry standard, and levels have been further reduced in each subsequent API rating for engine oils. Manufacturers have tried adding more boron to offset the effects of the reduced zinc and phosphorus levels; however, the dry start protection does not measure up to those using more ZDDP/ZDTP. This has opened up a whole new market for zinc/phosphorus additives for oil and many camshaft and engine manufacturers now recommend that an additive be used in initial break-in and for regular use.
All engine oils are rated for viscosity by the SAE as well as additive content by the API; passenger car ratings are two-letter designations that start with “S.” Heavy-duty or off-road equipment ratings start with “C.” The current API oil rating for passenger cars (gasoline engines) is SM and for trucks (diesel engines) CJ-4. Within these designations, you can determine how much zinc and how many other chemicals are present in the ILSAC (multi-viscosity) oils. These levels do not apply to straight-weight oils. If levels in the ILSAC oils are too high for the API specification, they cannot be rated for the current specification unless the container specifies “for racing or off-road use only” or “for use in classic cars.” This has caused oil companies to reduce levels of many additives, including zinc and phosphorus, to the required maximum in order to meet the current specification. Listed here are the current specifications for maximum amounts of additives to achieve the API ratings. P is phosphorus, Zn is zinc, and B is boron. Each figure is total parts per million of additives. These can also be roughly expressed in percentages by multiplying by .0001 (1301 PPM = .13 percent, 994 PPM = .099 percent)
New SM oils are just not going to cut it unless they have a zinc additive to boost the rating and one of the zinc supplements should be used with these oils or oils containing additional ZDDP additives are recommended. Some enthusiasts have recommended using commercially rated CI-4 15W40 diesel oil to meet the zinc and phosphorus additive requirement; however, CI-4 is an old specification and hard to locate. You can see that the CJ-4 specification that now supersedes it is well below acceptable levels. Our best recommendation is that you contact your oil supplier for exact additive contents." " http://blog.hemmings.com/in...ts-on-older-engines/
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 04-16-2014).]
How old is an older engine? What about other modern lubricants like CSL (Restore) and Zmax? Both are somewhat proven to work.
Then again Slick 50 has been shown to teflon coat metal parts as well but also has a downside in that it coats things it shouldn't more than things it should. Using a small amount every year however might make up for the zinc loss assuming again that a Fiero engine counts as "old."
this is getting complicated.
I for one have decided to go with Mobil 1 Extended (lower zinc than high mileage) and continue using Restore as it's been proven to leave a graphite like (my term, not theirs) coating on internal parts. I am curious about Z max though. I remember the bad press but they avoided an FTC fine unlike Slick 50 and a few others so their must be something to them. I used Z Max when it was new and did see a 1.5 mpg improvement. That's well within margin of error though so I never used it again.
I forgot one other thing. The FTC claimed that friction at start up wasn't important because engines never fail from that. It's there, but it was ruled irrelevant. I'm not sure if that makes sense or not though.
"First, to establish a base line, I started with a1980s vintage "Pennzoil" 10W/40 it contained 547 PPM Phosphorus and 716 PPM Zinc. This was one of the popular oils widely available and used in the 80s. It had adequate ZDDP content for flat tappet engines."
The 1200 PPM and 1300 PPM are deemed by most engine builders as enough to preserve a flat tappet cam and lifters.
As for any additives I am not a fan if the engine is in good condition. If there were any miracle additives then the factory would have recommenced them from the start. Most do no harm, many add nothing extra and some just muck up good oil. There was a time oils were lacking many things and additives were a help but anymore the only additives that are of any real use are for engines on their last leg to keep them alive a little longer.
The modern engines are normally the OBD II engines as the Converters are a little different and also you are dealing with more sensors like the two 02 sensors etc.
Generally if you change your oil and filters at the proper times and use a top grade oil you really do not need anything else.
Also note the oil life indicators in the new cars really work. They do give you a good estimate of oil life. They read all the sensors and cycles of the engine and the algorithm give a accurate oil life. The change it at 3000 miles is a worst case issue as most engines with a good synthic oil can go 7500 miles or more with no issue. My HHR even with the Turbo goes around 9,000 miles in city driving with the oil life meter.
I used to doubt the meter but I had it explained to me by a GM tech and there is a lot more to it than you think. Same for BMW and others who are now offering them in their cars.
I would leave zinc additives only for break in oils and additives for new engine you build to break in the cam and seat the rings. Otherwise I would leave all of them alone. GM states what they think it takes to keep an engine alive and I would stick to it.
It is not too much and will take a beating even in the most powerful engine on down.
It could cost you a maybe 1 MPG.
Also with Synthetics the viscosity is stable under all condition cold or hot.
I disagree with you on using that heavy of an oil viscosity. In the 88 2.5 that I had I used 5w-30 in it from 87,000 up to 200,000 miles. I made the mistake one time of putting 10w-30 in. Sheeetttt the oil pressure pegged the needle and didnt come down until the engine was off. Even when it was up to operating temps. Changed back to 5w-30 and the pressure was normal. Stayed that way to 200,000 miles.
[This message has been edited by solotwo (edited 04-16-2014).]
I disagree with you on using that heavy of an oil viscosity. In the 88 2.5 that I had I used 5w-30 in it from 87,000 up to 200,000 miles. I made the mistake one time of putting 10w-30 in. Sheeetttt the oil pressure pegged the needle and didnt come down until the engine was off. Even when it was up to operating temps. Changed back to 5w-30 and the pressure was normal. Stayed that way to 200,000 miles.
You can disagree all you like but that is what people who make oil and professionally build engines recommend.
10 W 30 will not hurt a thing and if you gauge stuck it was because your sender or gauge was off to start with.
Like I said read up on it at the MFG web sites and learn what is really going on and the needs of engines today and in the past.
I wish I could find the story in the Corvette magazine again as it even states that Mobil One 10-W50 is what is recommended for older flat tappet cam Corvettes to use today.
One other thing with additives is per the MFG's is they all do not blend well with most oils at the molecular level. I think the Mobil site states this as do others I have read.
Note that Mobil states 15-50 is recommended for performance applications , flat tappets and is not even listed as a racing oil that often are not recommended for street use.
If you want to use a 5-30 you can use the high mileage as it as 1000 PPM and 1100 PPM. It still lacks a little of the needed Zinc and Phosphorus it is better than the normal 800-900 PPM that you have been using.
Like I stated read up on this and do not just take my word as these are not my opinion but what I have learned from reading reliable information.
Also was the oil you used synthetic? As synthetic oil keeps the same thickness and flow rates hot and cold. In other words it does not thicken up like convention oils do when cold. It flows the same at -10 as it does at 110 degrees. Now you use a oil that is 50 weight and it is cold it will be as thick as STP if it is a conventions oil in the cold.
That is the one advantage also with synthetics is they flow at start up like they do when up to temp. Now slow flow rates when it is freezing cold.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 04-17-2014).]
I am very leery of putting synthetic oil in my Fieros that both have over a 100k miles on them. When I put synthetic tranny fluid in my 85 Duke the manual transmission axle seals started leaking like crazy, put 10W-30 back in and the leak stopped. I am very concerned that if I put it in the engine the crankshaft seals would start leaking. I agree that synthetic oil has some superior properties but I am not going to take the chance of causing leaks that would necessitate engine work.
Also was the oil you used synthetic? As synthetic oil keeps the same thickness and flow rates hot and cold. In other words it does not thicken up like convention oils do when cold. It flows the same at -10 as it does at 110 degrees.
I forgot one other thing. The FTC claimed that friction at start up wasn't important because engines never fail from that. It's there, but it was ruled irrelevant. I'm not sure if that makes sense or not though.
IMO the FTC doesnt know what its talking about if it said that. Failure can eventually happen due to things happening slowly over time too, things such as poorl;y lubricated startups.
IMO the FTC doesnt know what its talking about if it said that. Failure can eventually happen due to things happening slowly over time too, things such as poorl;y lubricated startups.
It was part of the Slick 50 settlement. Slick 50 claimed that start up friction leads to engine failure. The FTC said that no engine has failed due to start up friction as they fail from other things long before that becomes a factor. Like I said, it sounds crazy to me as well.
As far as I know only two additives have been able to prove themselves to FTC standards and those are Restore and Z Max. The rest still exist but have paid sanctions and are limited on how they can advertise.
Are we sure we need that much zinc? It sounds like zinc causes as many problems as it prevents.
Are we sure we need that much zinc? It sounds like zinc causes as many problems as it prevents.
I am starting to think some of the zinc articles are as much for marketing. There is a good level for zinc, but if you have "more zinc".... that is a plus over the competition
You just need enough zinc, moly, or some other metal against metal lubricant to make up the difference of flat tappet cam vs roller cam, basically. As with anything there are lots of studies, but most would be funded by a company making a product and they want it to sell. Such is life. Oil analysis of your used oil is probably the only way to know for your exact engine.
