Not knowing what to think is always better than not thinking at all. NSA and this administration (and previous ones) have been caught in lie after lie regarding what they were doing, and had to backtrack at every turn. Liars suck.
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12:46 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Originally posted by maryjane: Not knowing what to think is always better than not thinking at all. NSA and this administration (and previous ones) have been caught in lie after lie regarding what they were doing, and had to backtrack at every turn. Liars suck.
understood. waiting for olejoedad's pov.
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12:58 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37880 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Had he taken the information to damage the United States or to make a profit from it I would consider him a traitor. A hero does what he thinks is right at the risk of grave harm to his well being. Not that everybody should be given a pass because they think they are right but he was right. Things were going on that we had no idea about. Even Nobama admits it is a conversation that was/is needed. It would have never happened without Snowden. He has suffered grave consequences. He was a high school drop out, making about $125k, living in Hawaii. He knew that would end with his disclosures. He has also been exiled from his family, our great nation, and has to eek out a living in a God forsaken place not even knowing the language.
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08:03 PM
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dratts Member
Posts: 8373 From: Coeur d' alene Idaho USA Registered: Apr 2001
Had he taken the information to damage the United States or to make a profit from it I would consider him a traitor. A hero does what he thinks is right at the risk of grave harm to his well being. Not that everybody should be given a pass because they think they are right but he was right. Things were going on that we had no idea about. Even Nobama admits it is a conversation that was/is needed. It would have never happened without Snowden. He has suffered grave consequences. He was a high school drop out, making about $125k, living in Hawaii. He knew that would end with his disclosures. He has also been exiled from his family, our great nation, and has to eek out a living in a God forsaken place not even knowing the language.
Thoughts on Bradley Manning similar?
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07:43 AM
olejoedad Member
Posts: 19994 From: Back home again in Indiana Registered: May 2004
The man released government information that was classified without authorization. The information damaged the security and intelligence efforts of the government. There are legal, protected avenues for whistleblowing. He did not use those mechanisms. I see no heroism in his actions.
Please prove those allegations. (NSA stooges and Prez "saying so" is not proof)
What they(and and perhaps you) really mean is he embarrassed the crap out of the Intel industry, and showed them to be the outright LIARS we've always suspected them to be.
You really think he would have kept breathing and remained free if he had taken the whistleblower route?
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08:33 AM
dratts Member
Posts: 8373 From: Coeur d' alene Idaho USA Registered: Apr 2001
Whistle blowing worked out really good for Bradley/Chelsea. He wisely decided to stay in the US rather than seek asylum. Had Snowden taken the same route he would now have free rent and medical care in a federal facility. Just for letting us know about big brother on steroids. What a deal Snowden passed up!
[This message has been edited by dratts (edited 02-20-2014).]
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08:46 AM
olejoedad Member
Posts: 19994 From: Back home again in Indiana Registered: May 2004
Gosh, MJ, my security clearance is not high enough to 'prove' what you ask. My 'opinion' of the mans actions are based on a respect for the law, not the content of the information. The Intellegence community has provided invaluable information to our country in the past, and many patriots in that community have died in the service of their nation. His actions dishonors their sacrifice. With that said, perhaps the NSA is out of control; I know of no one who can say for sure, especially with the media hubbub in the matter. My opinion is just that, my opinion.
[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 02-20-2014).]
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08:48 AM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37880 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by olejoedad: The man released government information that was classified without authorization.
Too much government information is given the cloak of "classification" needlessly. It is of no surprise to me that using unconstitutional practices on US citizens would be labeled classified by those that want to do it.
quote
Originally posted by newf: Thoughts on Bradley Manning similar?
No. His revelations did nothing to to protect the Constitutional rights of American citizens.
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08:56 AM
olejoedad Member
Posts: 19994 From: Back home again in Indiana Registered: May 2004
I don't doubt that there is information that is 'classified for convenience', and that the State is abusing our privacy. I do have a difference of opinion, however, about calling him a hero. I see nothing heroic about his actions.
Many ,many Independent intelligence men on talk radio have said he has compromised our agents & human intelligent sources,,some countries are hunting the men he sold out ! ''' the man fled to China & Russia ,this alone brands him ,but many here seek a hero when our socialmarx goverment is involved!! you have to be very,extremely naive to think he is a hero ,the man is sell out scum POS.. not one doubt 100% traitor do your research... if these traitors were hung by the neck there would be fewer of them, I follow military activities & intelligence activities all day since I am semi retired there have been many whistle blowers ,, they did not flee to Communist countries I have zero sympathy for Obumbles or the corrupt Attorney General,,I absolutely love to see them embarrassed in any way,, this is not there fault,,the Snowman is a real traitor hope he finds a short drop with a rope around his neck, or life in a small cell intelligence is a nasty dirty business
One of the many ways of keeping a "secret" is to classify reams and reams of material, with much of it being superfluous. The mere volume of data means it is much harder to sift thru all the fluff to find the meat. This avenue has been used since the first intel operation began--it's a case of misdirection, deflection and takes a lot of resources to go thru it, so yes, there is a LOT of information "classified" out of convenience. Absolutely everyday stuff that has nothing to do with state or military secrets. The bigger the haystack, the harder it is to find the needles. If it were just a pile of needles, it would be much much easier to pick them out and up. We are now at the point (according to CBO) that it costs more $ to delete the stored data than it does to store it.
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09:15 AM
olejoedad Member
Posts: 19994 From: Back home again in Indiana Registered: May 2004
My opinion must have struck some nerves, I see a movement on my arrow to the red, with no change in total ratings. No personal attacks or anything......just voicing my opinion. I probably won't sleep for days.......
The man released government information that was classified without authorization. The information damaged the security and intelligence efforts of the government. There are legal, protected avenues for whistleblowing. He did not use those mechanisms. I see no heroism in his actions.
thank you. as usual, these things are complex, and murky, still not sure what to think, but i do think i understand the arguments.
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10:33 AM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
My 'opinion' of the mans actions are based on a respect for the law, not the content of the information.
I understand your pont. Though I kind of see that as a zero tolerance stance. For me its more case by case. It does depend on what they reveal, what was withheld. Its only with knowledge of what is actually happening that we can make proper decisions.
(that said, I know we still dont know whats actually happening)
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 02-20-2014).]
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10:39 AM
olejoedad Member
Posts: 19994 From: Back home again in Indiana Registered: May 2004
(snip) For me its more case by case. It does depend on what they reveal, what was withheld. Its only with knowledge of what is actually happening that we can make proper decisions. (snip)
And there is the rub....WE (non security clearanced private citizens) will never know. At some point we need to have a bit of confidence in those people in government who are dedicated to the task of oversight. The media generally does a good job of blowing everything out of proportion, and a poor job of performing their duty to hold the government to task. We generally don't have enough info to take issues on a case-by-case, but in this case, laws were broken, secrets were leaked without authorization, and people's lives put in danger by one man's actions. No heroism displayed from my point of view.
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01:00 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
And there is the rub....WE (non security clearanced private citizens) will never know. At some point we need to have a bit of confidence in those people in government who are dedicated to the task of oversight. The media generally does a good job of blowing everything out of proportion, and a poor job of performing their duty to hold the government to task. We generally don't have enough info to take issues on a case-by-case, but in this case, laws were broken, secrets were leaked without authorization, and people's lives put in danger by one man's actions. No heroism displayed from my point of view.
I agree with many of your points. Is there evidence of people's lives put in danger?
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01:14 PM
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olejoedad Member
Posts: 19994 From: Back home again in Indiana Registered: May 2004
Imagine? NSA is counting on imagination, rhetoric, sensationalism, fear, and lies being used. It is what they do and it is how they have gotten away with so much for so long. I used to imagine I could fly--when I was about 8 yrs old.
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02:22 PM
dratts Member
Posts: 8373 From: Coeur d' alene Idaho USA Registered: Apr 2001
According to some sources... Hard to imagine that some people have not been put in danger with the amount of information released.
There are sources that show some people have been put in danger? Everything I've read says that Snowden took great precautions to prevent that and handed information to journalists that would review everything to make sure that doesn't happen. I'm not saying that no one will be hurt, just that no one has yet. As far as I know. Lots of unwarranted surveilance and lying has been exposed though. I don't trust our government as much as you do.
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02:37 PM
olejoedad Member
Posts: 19994 From: Back home again in Indiana Registered: May 2004
Don't fool yourself about me trusting the Government, but I feel there are some people in government that can be trusted. As an entity, no; as far as some individuals, yes.
Perhaps I should have said 'it would stretch the imagination to think that someone has not been put in danger'.......
Do you have information that shows that no one has been put in danger?
You are asking me to prove a negative--that no harm has been done? C'mon--you are the one insisting damage and harm HAS been done--it's upon you to prove that. But, since you asked........... No, tho everything I have read (and I have read a lot of the released data) reveals very little that wasn't already very much suspected. I have not seen any particulars regarding agents in the field, terrorist targets, or any of the usual foreign intelligence office interests other than politicians. Almost all of the speaking ponts have revolved around the fact that NSA (and other intel agencies) do in fact greatly spy on Americans everyday--something both Administration and NSA spokes people flatly denied before Snowden. There's not even much detail on "how" they do this, just incontrovertible and undeniable evidence that they (in concert with commercial comminications) DO cast a huge net of surveillance.
As a former pentagon official recently opined:
quote
What exactly do you know about the doings of the Pentagon’s Defense Intelligence Agency, with its 16,500 employees, which has in recent years embarked on “an ambitious plan to assemble an espionage network that rivals the CIA in size”? How about the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, with its 16,000 employees, its post-9/11 headquarters (price tag: $1.8 billion) and its control over our system of spy satellites eternally prowling the planetary skies?
The answer is no more than you would have known about the NSA if Snowden hadn’t acted as he did. And by the way, what do you really know about the FBI, which now, among other things, issues thousands of national security letters a year (16,511 in 2011 alone), an unknown number of them for terror investigations? Since their recipients are muzzled from discussing them, we know next to nothing about them or what the Bureau is actually doing. And how’s your info on the CIA, which takes $4 billion more out of the intelligence “black budget” than the NSA, runs its own private wars, and has even organized its own privatized corps of spies as part of the general expansion of US intelligence and espionage abroad? The answer on all of the above is—has to be—remarkably little.
Damage has not been done to our ability to defend the nation. Damage HAS been done to how the US population views HOW that protection is carried out, and that, is what this is really all about--embarrassment at the knowledge that our govt has lied to us and got caught in that lie.
The NSA had announced a month or 2 ago that had put together a list of talking points regarding Snowden and it was to show the damage done, but backed off of that as they learned that some of those "points" were proven false by further Snowden releases. In other words, the NSA was going to again be caught in more lies.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 02-20-2014).]
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03:26 PM
olejoedad Member
Posts: 19994 From: Back home again in Indiana Registered: May 2004
What we can agree on is that it is a mess. Schemers, liars, power-grabbers, little to no oversight by those in charge, and very little investigation by the press prior to Snowdens leaks. Will we ever learn the real truths of the matter? I doubt it.
As to Snowden vetting his releases to prevent information he released causing harm to people in our intelligence community, I think that is probably a stretch at best.
No stretch on Snowden,he has harmed many,, the death toll will not be known for years the inocent do not flee to Russia. so your research.. only the naive & idiots believe he is a good boy a very good dancing with the stars candidate ,watch his kicking dancing feet as his neck is rope dancing stretched
even house leader Boehner & Feinstein agree with 20 independent intel sources !! actually the number who think he is POS traitors is in the hundreds ,But Im to lazy to search for the obvious Snowden sold out his country,, America is falling from within right now!!,snowden just another POS who sign the oath of secrecy the man went to China & Russia ,, the action of a true patriot if you are a naive stupid moron
[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 02-20-2014).]
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07:11 PM
dratts Member
Posts: 8373 From: Coeur d' alene Idaho USA Registered: Apr 2001
No stretch on Snowden,he has harmed many,, the death toll will not be known for years the inocent do not flee to Russia. so your research.. only the naive & idiots believe he is a good boy a very good dancing with the stars candidate ,watch his kicking dancing feet as his neck is rope dancing stretched
even house leader Boehner & Feinstein agree with 20 independent intel sources !! actually the number who think he is POS traitors is in the hundreds ,But Im to lazy to search for the obvious Snowden sold out his country,, America is falling from within right now!!,snowden just another POS who sign the oath of secrecy the man went to China & Russia ,, the action of a true patriot if you are a naive stupid moron
The innocent do flee to russia if they don't want to end up like bradley manning, the guy who showed the video of helicopter gunners spraying a crowd and murdering some journalists and getting off on it. I would have no idea about the NSA spying on me if it weren't for Snowden. So far he's a hero.
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08:00 PM
htexans1 Member
Posts: 9116 From: Clear Lake City/Houston TX Registered: Sep 2001
