Is this guy for real?

http://www.weeklystandard.c...-country_653749.html

"This country doesn’t just succeed when just a few are doing well at the top. It succeeds when the middle class gets bigger. Our economy doesn’t grow from the top down -- it grows from the middle out. We don’t believe that anybody is entitled to success in this country," said Obama. "But we do believe in opportunity. We believe in a country where hard work pays off and responsibility is rewarded, and everybody is getting a fair shot and everybody is doing their fair share and everybody is playing by the same rules."

if my hard work "pays off" or I'm being "rewarded" wouldn't you consider that success?

and for the record, i couldn't care less about Romney either.

quote Originally posted by ShaddowGt: Is this guy for real? http://www.weeklystandard.c...-country_653749.html "This country doesn’t just succeed when just a few are doing well at the top. It succeeds when the middle class gets bigger. Our economy doesn’t grow from the top down -- it grows from the middle out. We don’t believe that anybody is entitled to success in this country," said Obama. "But we do believe in opportunity. We believe in a country where hard work pays off and responsibility is rewarded, and everybody is getting a fair shot and everybody is doing their fair share and everybody is playing by the same rules." if my hard work "pays off" or I'm being "rewarded" wouldn't you consider that success? and for the record, i couldn't care less about Romney either.

Well, this whole statement he apparently made is a vast contradiction. Quite honestly "not entitled to success" is really a Conservative battle-cry. But don't misunderstand it... what [we as] conservatives mean by this, is that success is created through hard work. Just because you exist does not mean you are automatically entitled to success. But then of course, he goes on to talk about that "fair share" stupidity.

Unless I'm totally misunderstanding this...

Just because you work hard does not mean you will succeed, either, Todd - It just means you took care of your end of the bargain, its still up to other people to buy your product or pay you for the work you did... true economic success involves a lot more than hard work, it involves some good luck in opportunities to go along with it.

You're entitled to opportunity. You're not entitled to success at any level.

I'd settle for a level playing field.

quote Originally posted by carnut122: I'd settle for a level playing field.

ITT: People that think people who succeeded didn't work for it.



Brad

I'm a little confused as to why the Obama quote there is stirring you. What Obama has said is that "[no one] is entitled to success in this country." No one is. No one should automatically be successful or simply given success from the time they are born, and that is what Obama is saying in that short snip-it. Albeit I have to admit it the concept was worded a bit poorly and could have been said better with different wording.

In the way the United States is setup, it gives everyone equal opportunity to achieve success in their lives. Laws are in place to keep the peace, living standards have been set, business practices and guidelines are in place, jobs are and can be readily obtainable by individuals. Everyone as a US citizen has the mechanisms in place to achieve success, based simply on the items presented to them. It's been that way since the founding of America. I think we very often take for granted what is given to us at United States citizens. There are millions and millions and millions and millions upon millions of people WAY far worse off than ourselves.

HOWEVER... However, I will say my gripe with "success" has always been the interpretation of what that word is. In the current political sphere - and I'm seeing this from both sides honestly - success is a marker of some sort of over-achievement pursuant to the 'American Dream.' That is an absolutely sad way to look at success. Not everyone is entitled to having a couple Lamborghinis parked outside a 5000 square foot house, while sitting in their formal dinning room sipping on a 30 year old scotch daily while plucking away at a computer running their business. I own a relatively cozy house, I own a few cars including a Fiero, I have no college debt, I have some savings, I relatively live paycheck to paycheck but wouldn't be on the street if I lost my job for a year. I'm probably not going to own a business, I'm probably not going to be rich, I may never own any nice cars or a really nice house. However, I have utilized the mechanisms in place to achieve a rather (in my eye) good living & social standing.

I however consider all of that I have achieved a BIG marker for success. I think my modest living is at a rather high point of being "successful." I have to say I personally cannot give a definitive definition of what ultimate success for society is - and to a large degree it is likely pursuant to every individual to determine what 'success' to themselves is. We are and have been quickly losing sight of what the marker of 'success' is, and that is a problem. And I'm sad to say neither sides of the political spectrum is understanding this. I also understand that many will and likely do disagree with me, both externally and here in this topic, and that is okay.

quote Originally posted by tbone42: Just because you work hard does not mean you will succeed, either, Todd - It just means you took care of your end of the bargain, its still up to other people to buy your product or pay you for the work you did... true economic success involves a lot more than hard work, it involves some good luck in opportunities to go along with it.

Not trying to be a jerk, I promise... but most everyone here is aware of that. I know that we do have a couple of multi-millionaires here, but even they understand that... perhaps even more so than the rest of us. You also have to be intelligent... or determined. At least one of the two... but both makes it easier.

quote Originally posted by carnut122: I'd settle for a level playing field.

There is no level playing field unless there is a successful business to pay for it.

quote Originally posted by carnut122: I'd settle for a level playing field.

How do you define a level playing field? Serious question.

Actually...nobody is ENTITLED to success...you are however, entitled to TRY to succeed. This is real life, not kindergarten where everybody gets a blue ribbon and 1st place.

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: Actually...nobody is ENTITLED to success...you are however, entitled to TRY to succeed. This is real life, not kindergarten where everybody gets a blue ribbon and 1st place.

Hey look! Someone gets it! If you could perhaps just share that part of your brain with the zombies on here who are lacking that... then the US might turn out alright!

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Hey look! Someone gets it! If you could perhaps just share that part of your brain with the zombies on here who are lacking that... then the US might turn out alright!

There is different types of success, too T/A.....to me, I got to spend a night long time ago sleeping on hay, with sheet in my hair, in a stall with a horse nobody could trust not to hurt them...he didnt step on my head (could have any time he wanted), he didnt break my legs or ribs, he didnt do a damn thing to me and in the morning I got a shower and coffee.....not much money in doing that (actually, I think the heating bill was 20 bucks for the propane) but ya---thats success. To me anyway. LMAO, for every 10,000 people watching something--dont matter what it is--...ONE actually does something about it. Sometimes ya win, sometimes ya loose and land on yer head in an ambulance...but ya CANT sit on the side and whine and cry that ya didnt get the same as the guy who got off his azz.

A wise man once suggested that I pay little attention to what others have and are doing and focus on what I am doing.

The quote to me sounds like a call for confiscation of wealth. Oh, how the drooling mentally challenged would love that.

The problem with this statement is what is unsaid. Obama beleives that MORE government is what creates opportunity and CLEARLY, as we can see from history if not plain old common sense, he's wrong.

OK, I won't say anything. Go ahead and fill in the unsaid part of what I didn't say. It's a wide open field just ripe for you to spout your agenda.

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: ITT: People that think people who succeeded didn't work for it. Brad

A minority of those "rich evil people" got their money by doing nothing. Most worked very hard for it. (and keep working hard) The made tough choices. sacrificed aspects of their lives to get there.

Money DOES sometimes come from money, and getting the right connections (throuygh family, friends and school) DOES help, but level playing field does not and cannot exist.

It's easy to demonize the rich, just like it's easy to demonize an entire region of people by their color or religion or some other way they can be grouped together...
in both instances, a few asshoats members make the rest of the folks think they're ALL like that...

The majority of folks should not rely on the government to make them happy or keep them above water.
There are many folks who DO need this help, and then there are those who don't need it but scam to get it.

Hard to keep it all clean, but I hate it when a public figure seems to cater to the crinimals, the negative aspects, the "bad guys"...very simplistic, but you know what I mean...

Even the US Constitution agrees...

It says tthe "pursuit of happiness..." It does not say u will be happy.

quote Originally posted by ShaddowGt: Is this guy for real? http://www.weeklystandard.c...-country_653749.html "This country doesn’t just succeed when just a few are doing well at the top. It succeeds when the middle class gets bigger. Our economy doesn’t grow from the top down -- it grows from the middle out. We don’t believe that anybody is entitled to success in this country," said Obama. "But we do believe in opportunity. We believe in a country where hard work pays off and responsibility is rewarded, and everybody is getting a fair shot and everybody is doing their fair share and everybody is playing by the same rules." if my hard work "pays off" or I'm being "rewarded" wouldn't you consider that success? and for the record, i couldn't care less about Romney either.

Does Obama apply what he speaks to his own political career and how we runs campaigns?

well the nut-con do believe that the death tax is wrong
so they do believe the heir's are entitled to all their parents money and stuff

or that rich investors should pay less taxes then workers

so they believe some are entitled more then others to success

but count on the nut-con spin machine to twist whatever they can
how ever they can every time they can
or just use a BIG LIE if they can
truth matters not to them

quote Originally posted by ray b: well the nut-con do believe that the death tax is wrong so they do believe the heir's are entitled to all their parents money and stuff or that rich investors should pay less taxes then workers so they believe some are entitled more then others to success but count on the nut-con spin machine to twist whatever they can how ever they can every time they can or just use a BIG LIE if they can truth matters not to them

Let me know when any rich left wing moon bat like Soros, the Kennedy Family and many others who take more advantage of hiding their wealth in overseas and island nations tax shelters, sheltering their assets from the government estate taxes so their heirs can have all their stuff then any other identified group.

Hard working business people who have earned their money are just asking, "Why does the Kennedy Family get to shelter their stuff from the estate tax, and you ask me to pay?"

The Left are the biggest abusers of tax shelters, loop holes, government credits and especially government assistance.

You let me know how much Ted Kennedy had to pay in estate tax when he died?

[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 10-06-2012).]

quote Originally posted by ShaddowGt: Is this guy for real? http://www.weeklystandard.c...-country_653749.html "This country doesn’t just succeed when just a few are doing well at the top. It succeeds when the middle class gets bigger. Our economy doesn’t grow from the top down -- it grows from the middle out. We don’t believe that anybody is entitled to success in this country," said Obama. "But we do believe in opportunity. We believe in a country where hard work pays off and responsibility is rewarded, and everybody is getting a fair shot and everybody is doing their fair share and everybody is playing by the same rules." if my hard work "pays off" or I'm being "rewarded" wouldn't you consider that success? and for the record, i couldn't care less about Romney either.

Shadow GT
Yes this guy is for real.
You are NOT ENTITLED to success.
However, you are entitled to the opportunitiy to succeed.

Wether or not you are "successful" or not depends on many things.
. #1 How smart are you.
. #2 How much do you know.
. #3 How hard are you willing to work.
. #4 How much are you willing to sacrifice to be successful
. #5 How much help and support will you be able to get.
. #6 Where do you live and work. ie, Being in the right place at the right time.
. #7 How is your timing? ie Are you trying to start a new business when the ecomomy has just imploded?
. #8 How lucky are you? Some times a little luck is required to get you over the top.

Also on an existential note, "Success", also depends on how you define "Success".
. Is "Success", amassing millions or billions of dollars?
. Or is "Success", finding & keeping a spouse who is your best friend & confidant, having a family
. that is happy & healthy, and personally being healthy, happy, and content?

~ Bob ~

------------------
"Its nice to be important.
Its more important to be nice."

quote We don’t believe that anybody is entitled to success in this country

No, we are not entitled to success. We are entitled to the opportunity to work to achieve it. And yes, failure is always an option.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Let me know when any rich left wing moon bat like Soros, the Kennedy Family and many others who take more advantage of hiding their wealth in overseas and island nations tax shelters, sheltering their assets from the government estate taxes so their heirs can have all their stuff then any other identified group. Hard working business people who have earned their money are just asking, "Why does the Kennedy Family get to shelter their stuff from the estate tax, and you ask me to pay?" The Left are the biggest abusers of tax shelters, loop holes, government credits and especially government assistance. You let me know how much Ted Kennedy had to pay in estate tax when he died?

Wichita,
You seem to think that only the "Left", take advantage of the loop holes in the tax code.
One would have to be a fool to think that the wealthy, (and the ultra wealthy), on the "Right" don't also take advantage of the same loop holes.

Do you really think that the Romneys, the Koch brothers, and Adelson, pay their fair share in taxes?
I doubt that they do. They have teams of tax accountants that help them to take advantage of the loop holes in the tax code so that they pay the absolute minimum in taxes.

Yes, what they do is legal, but it is not necessarily right or fair.
Everyone in America should pay their fair share in taxes since we all derive the same benifits of being citizens of the United States of America.
Even Warren Buffet says that it is unfair for him to pay a lower percentage in taxes than his secretary.

~ Bob ~

quote Originally posted by FieroBobo: Do you really think that the Romneys, the Koch brothers, and Adelson, pay their fair share in taxes? ~ Bob ~

They pay their legal amount, and that is all that matters ( and its a lot more than you ). 'fair share' is a term created to promote class warfare.

quote Originally posted by FieroBobo: Even Warren Buffet says that it is unfair for him to pay a lower percentage in taxes than his secretary.

Hes more than welcome to pay more if he has a personal issue. The irs does take donations. But no, he wont do that and would rather promote the illusion to further his agenda.

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 10-06-2012).]

quote Originally posted by User00013170: They pay their legal amount, and that is all that matters ( and its a lot more than you ). 'fair share' is a term created to promote class warfare. Hes more than welcome to pay more if he has a personal issue. The irs does take donations. But no, he wont do that and would rather promote the illusion to further his agenda.

Paying their legal amount and paying their fair share are two different things.
Some of these people have reaped huge benefits from living in America.
As a consequence of reaping more benefits than the average citizens, they should be required to give back a greater amount to the country that enabled them to reap their greater benefits.

quote Originally posted by User00013170: 'fair share' is a term created to promote class warfare.

Another way of looking at this issue is to say that "class warfare", is a way for the wealthy to justify why they should be allowed to pay a smaller percentage of their annual income than the less wealthy members of society.

~ Bob ~

quote Originally posted by FieroBobo: Another way of looking at this issue is to say that "class warfare", is a way for the wealthy to justify why they should be allowed to pay a smaller percentage of their annual income than the less wealthy members of society. ~ Bob ~

Only in the small mind of a liberal or socialist.

( i wont even comment on the ludicrous nature of your first comment. )

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 10-06-2012).]

quote Originally posted by FieroBobo: Paying their legal amount and paying their fair share are two different things. Some of these people have reaped huge benefits from living in America. As a consequence of reaping more benefits than the average citizens, they should be required to give back a greater amount to the country that enabled them to reap their greater benefits.

Oh, GOOD GOD, man, how many times do we have to post who pays the most in taxes, both as a dollar amount AND by percentage?

quote Originally posted by ray b: well the nut-con do believe that the death tax is wrong so they do believe the heir's are entitled to all their parents money and stuff

It is wrong. Its double taxation and penalization only due to your death. And yes, survivors should be entitled to it all, unhindered by the government.

Remember if you inherit a house ( for example ), sales and property taxes were paid by the original owner, and if you sell it guess what, you pay taxes on that too.

quote Originally posted by FieroBobo: Paying their legal amount and paying their fair share are two different things. Some of these people have reaped huge benefits from living in America. As a consequence of reaping more benefits than the average citizens, they should be required to give back a greater amount to the country that enabled them to reap their greater benefits.

NO ONE in the United States is entitled to greater benefits than anyone else. A poor person whom becomes wealthy is entitled to the same benefits as a wealthy person, just as a wealthy person who becomes poor is entitled to the same benefits (free phone, internet, food, lodging, etc) that a poor person gets.

And they already DO give back a greater amount. The poor don't pay ANY FEDERAL TAXES AT ALL while the wealthy pay the overwhelming vast majority of the Federal income taxes.

I don't understand your point. And please don't suggest that somehow a wealthy person with an expensive jet consumes more benefit because that jet probably employed over 10,000 people just to get it from the point of dirt / mining the minerals, to actually turning it into a plane and delivering it to the customer.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I don't understand your point.

The rich are bad because they have more than me and its not fair. whaaaaaaaa

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: ITT: People that think people who succeeded didn't work for it. Brad

I've been around long enough to see the majority who get promoted weren't the ones who "worked for it."

quote Originally posted by carnut122: I'd settle for a level playing field.

I think the vast majority would like to see that "change".

quote Originally posted by User00013170: He who makes the rules rarely lives by them.

I hope you don't mind my adding..."He who pays to have the rules made for him, doesn't mind living by them."

quote Originally posted by carnut122: People should not be allowed to "bend" the laws to their advantage at the expense of those who are unable to. The laws should represent all citizens. Nothing more...nothing less.

Exactly. And when I had to fill out financial aid packets years ago, they shouldn't have asked race/ethnicity.
For the record: The only time I got any financial aid was when I didn't check white. The next semester I tried it again and the lady wouldn't accept the forms if I checked the white box.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Oh, GOOD GOD, man, how many times do we have to post who pays the most in taxes, both as a dollar amount AND by percentage?

I'll agree on dollar amount, but please post up your evidence that the very top pay a higher percentage than the middle class.