http://www.businessinsider....aste-of-money-2012-9

quote The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) did a good job of shredding the electric car industry and the government’s role in its evolution with this report (Link). I’m not knocking electric cars, I’m knocking DC’s role in this industry. Washington has provided the loot necessary for research on battery design, it has committed to up to $25Bn of soft loans to the auto industry and it is subsidizing every electric car that is sold. Without the massive support from our “rich” Uncle Sam there would be no electric car industry in the USA. The question is, “Is this money well spent?” The government’s role with electric cars goes back to the 2009 emergency spending program ARRA (American Recovery and Reinvestment Act): ARRA provided $2 billion in funding to the Department of Energy (DOE) for grants under that program. Of that amount, $1.5 billion was awarded to battery producers, intermediate suppliers for those producers, and recyclers of vehicle batteries; the other $500 million was awarded to manufacturers of components for electric vehicles and intermediate suppliers of that manufacturing. DOE’s Transportation Electrification Initiative has made commitments for $400 million in grants for demonstration, deployment, and education projects involving electric vehicles. (Party Time!) I think it’s important to note that the original objective of supporting electric car production was that it was a plain old economic stimulus. This was dropping money from a helicopter in the hope that it (and all the other money) would stabilize a rapidly declining economy. Another motivation for the federal investment/subsidy was that it created a back-door support package for the auto industry that was falling off a cliff back then. Washington also agreed to provide $25Bn in cheap loans to the companies who make electric cars. So far, $8.4Bn has been committed. The rest of the money will be doled out before 2019. The money is being lent by the Federal Financing Bank (FFB). Because the loans are guaranteed by DOE, there is no risk of repayment to FFB. As a result, the loans are excluded from the calculation of the debt limit. The 25 ‘large’ is all “off balance sheet”. A very neat trick indeed! Who is getting the billions of soft loans? What are the terms for these advances? From the FFB (Link): The CBO has concluded that electric cars are not a “smart” choice for consumers. From the report: Because of differences in vehicle design and technology, electric vehicles cost thousands of dollars more to purchase than conventional vehicles of comparable size and performance. Okay, the cars cost too much. What does the government do? It subsidizes the inefficiency. It pays a cash incentive for each vehicle sold. The subsidy is based on the size of the battery; it ranges from $2,500 to $7,500. But the subsidy is still not enough to make electric cars competitive: Given current prices for vehicles and fuel, in most cases the existing tax credits do not fully offset the higher lifetime costs of an electric vehicle compared with those of an equivalent conventional vehicle or traditional hybrid. CBO concluded: The tax credits would still need to be about 50 percent higher than they are now to fully offset the higher lifetime costs of an all-electric vehicle. I know that someone is thinking that gas prices are going up, and when they do, electric cars will prove to be a smart thing. I’m not so sure. The CBO provided a breakeven on this line of thinking. If gas prices go north of $6, electric starts to make sense. When gas goes to $10, all of the vehicles break even to conventional autos. The problem I have with this line of reasoning is that if gas were to go to $8, the US economy (and the rest of the world) would come to an economic halt. In that environment a fellow would be grinning if he had an electric car, but he would probably be out of work, and most of the stores he would want to drive to would be closed. What good does the electric car create for him if things go very bad? Not much. There is a final argument that could be put forward in support for the mega investment the taxpayers are making in electric vehicles. The environment. Electric cars are “good” for the environment because they don’t produce CO2 gases, right? Actually, that’s wrong. The conclusion from the CBO: In the short term, the tax credits are likely to have little or no impact on total gasoline consumption and greenhouse gas emissions. In the long term, the credits might decrease gasoline use and emissions, but how cost-effectively they would do so is unknown. DC is on all sides of this mess. It is paying subsidies for inefficient and over priced cars. It is creating free grants to support an uncompetitive product. It is lending very big money (with long maturities and at low rates) to industry players. Please don’t tell me that car companies don’t go bankrupt. These loans go out to 2034. The CBO had a few recommendations on what to do with Washington’s headache with electric cars. The one that will probably be adopted is this one: A larger tax credit is needed to make electric vehicles cost-competitive with higher-fuel-economy conventional vehicles. That’s the solution? It’s just sending more money down a rat hole.

Click on link for charts and pictures.

GM is discounting the Volt as well:

http://news.yahoo.com/gm-di...eaper-143046010.html

No, not knocking the Volt, Uhlanstan can do that just fine.

well, there is truth that electric cars cost too much, but this article is biased.... so it is really just an opinion piece.

CBO? They are never right anyway.... their predictions are always valid, as long as the ink is still wet

Let the Japanese do all the leg work (they're well under way already) then wait for the chinese to rip it off...then you'll have your affordable electric car.
I don't know what the big issue is. The EV1 didn't use fancy lithium batteries, and it was a pretty basic motor setup. Quick dicking around thinking you need to reinvent the wheel for it to work right.

Just need a 3rd rail on roads and we should be all good.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: well, there is truth that electric cars cost too much, but this article is biased.... so it is really just an opinion piece. CBO? They are never right anyway.... their predictions are always valid, as long as the ink is still wet

So Business Insider isn't an authority, and the CBO isn't an authority...so whose assessment *would* you accept?

quote Originally posted by fierobear: So Business Insider isn't an authority, and the CBO isn't an authority...so whose assessment *would* you accept?

And Fox News and CNN are authorities... and they are never biased, eh? Writers are biased and this guy is pretty transparent about his views. Nothing wrong with pointing that out, is there? Or is his opinion now the authority?

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: And Fox News and CNN are authorities... and they are never biased, eh? Writers are biased and this guy is pretty transparent about his views. Nothing wrong with pointing that out, is there? Or is his opinion now the authority?

What source would you trust?

quote Originally posted by fierobear: What source would you trust?

Simple... None of them! I pull from many different sources and draw my own conclusions.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: Simple... None of them! I pull from many different sources and draw my own conclusions.

Name some sources.

So someone in Congress actually listened to me ????

I agree that at this time - they are a waste at the consumer level. we are stuck on the batteries. everything else is about electrics is awesome.

I do see the value in battery research. overcoming that will be a world changer. and big $$$ for the rights.

in another generation - it wont matter anyways, as there will be little alternative.

Ideally too me, the perfect solution is to vastly improve solar cells to power all electric vehicles. Batteries would just give you power for the dark hours. Maybe some new technology that would make the actual finish on the car a solar cell, like nanobots actually in the 'paint ' itself. Maybe not even sell them at all. They have a deal here on campus with bicycles where you pay so much a month for the 'rental' of a bike. Its not a specific one, just any of theirs thats available. You just grab one outside your dorm, ride it to class where its locked with a special lock. If someone else needs one, they have the same code and take the one you left. When you come out, you just take any of them thats handy the same way. Its worked out pretty well for a few years now. Theyve got enough out now, that you can find one pretty easily. They just paint them all a special color to stand out like Yellow Cabs.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 09-25-2012).]

I'm a proponent of all the above for the future. Both batteries and solar cells and I have hope that nano tech will lead the way for both. You will never get enough cells on a car to eliminate a need for exterior charging in practical use even if they were 100% efficient. Let's stay optimistic though.

iafter all, it's not like the taxpayer ever subsidized the development of nuclear energy or interstate highways or rural electrification or space exploration or...

Electric cars will be commercial viable very soon. Tesla, for example, gets 300 miles to a charge on it's Model S Sedan. With a recharge rate of 62 miles per hour of charge. Not bad for most people.

quote Originally posted by lurker: iafter all, it's not like the taxpayer ever subsidized the development of nuclear energy or interstate highways or rural electrification or space exploration or...

or..

Teslas are somewhat attractive to me, but still way too high priced. Its funny that his battery technology is miles (pun) ahead of any other manufacturer, yet the government who is pushing elec vehicles are fighting Tesla tooth and nail to keep him down.

quote Originally posted by AntiKev: Electric cars will be commercial viable very soon. Tesla, for example, gets 300 miles to a charge on it's Model S Sedan. With a recharge rate of 62 miles per hour of charge. Not bad for most people.

Nope--not bad, but "most people" aren't going to be willing or able to pay $57,400 MSRP for the base model or $92,400 for the performance version, or $95,200 for the Sig version or $105,400 MSRP for the Signature/Performance version when you can buy a nice Focus or Festiva type conventional vehicle for around $20k and that saved $37,000 will buy a LOT of gasoline..

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Name some sources.

Really? You must be bored.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: Really? You must be bored.

I am. Entertain me--Enlighten me with these sources.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: I am. Entertain me--Enlighten me with these sources.

Go play with Fierobear.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Nope--not bad, but "most people" aren't going to be willing or able to pay $57,400 MSRP for the base model or $92,400 for the performance version, or $95,200 for the Sig version or $105,400 MSRP for the Signature/Performance version when you can buy a nice Focus or Festiva type conventional vehicle for around $20k and that saved $37,000 will buy a LOT of gasoline..

Yes, and from what I've heard, if you let the battery discharge completely (like at the airport parking lot for a week) it turns your $20,000 battery into a $20,000 brick, but it is new technology and will improve. Last summer I was amazed to see FIVE of them in a row in Harrison Idaho. They had started out in Seattle and stopped in Ellensburg for a recharge.

I might look into one when gas is $10-15 @ gallon, where the economics start to make sense.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: CBO's track record questioned: http://www.marketminder.com...37-880e-31a4eed4f022 http://www.forbes.com/sites...-fisher-investments/

Considering both articles are from the same source (Fisher Investments) and both are whining about the CBO making predictions based soley on the data available to it at the time of it's predictions, I'd say someone at Fisher is worried about their investor base being influenced by predictions made based on the best possible data available at the time. I doubt that you, Fisher, CBO, or anyone else could accurately or even remotely predict in year 2000, the wild cards that took place between 2000 and 2010. Since Ken Fisher is himself a noted predictor, it's reasonable to assume he doesn't like the competition.
By law, CBO has to work with the facts it has available to them, not some mystical, magical crystal ball of the type the Ken Fishers of the world are allowed to play invesotr's $$ with.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Nope--not bad, but "most people" aren't going to be willing or able to pay $57,400 MSRP for the base model or $92,400 for the performance version, or $95,200 for the Sig version or $105,400 MSRP for the Signature/Performance version when you can buy a nice Focus or Festiva type conventional vehicle for around $20k and that saved $37,000 will buy a LOT of gasoline..

Ill just say Id pay $57,000 for one that will go 300 miles for free w/ 60 miles for a one hour charge, way before Id spend $43,000 for one that goes 25 miles on an 8-10 hour charge (and if i want to go farther, costs me in gas money to boot). Tesla dont have a gas engine at all to maintain and about 300 miles is the most I go in a day anyway.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: It just takes oil to rise in price.

The current administration is doing a GREAT job of that.


Do you WANT electric cars to be worth it SO badly that you WANT the oil prices to go up to a level where they are economically on par?

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: The current administration is doing a GREAT job of that. Do you WANT electric cars to be worth it SO badly that you WANT the oil prices to go up to a level where they are economically on par?

It is going to happen. China's demand for oil is only increasing... heck, the world's demand is increasing. And when the cost of extraction requires $200/barrel, who will you blame?

BTW, I could drive a Volt and only fill the tank once or twice a year. Currently the cost of the vehicle is too high, but when prices go down, I will be looking into something similar to the volt. If I can save money, it will make sense to buy.

Technology will get better, hybrid prices will drop.

Does FL need to repeat or re-word the question?
It was a fairly simple and direct question, easily answered with a yes or no.
Do you WANT it that badly--or don't you?

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: Go play with Fierobear.

LOL

You should change your nickname to "Duck-dodge-hide"

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Does FL need to repeat or re-word the question? It was a fairly simple and direct question, easily answered with a yes or no. Do you WANT it that badly--or don't you?

I missed that. Did he say that he WANTED it. I thought that he said it WILL happen.

quote Originally posted by dratts: I missed that. Did he say that he WANTED it. I thought that he said it WILL happen.

He said neither (nothing) in regards to the question FL asked.
It's one of my pet peeves---that people make up an entirely different question in their mind to answer rather than answering the specific question that was asked.
I've never understood it.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: A car with 300 mile range would be much more practical. Problem is, that 300 mile version will cost you a minimum of $69,900. Gonna need a much lower price to get widespread consumer interest.

The 300 mile variant is not available yet according to their website. I sent an email asking for more info.

Its to bad the Volt looks nothing like the Tesla.

quote Originally posted by dratts: I missed that. Did he say that he WANTED it. I thought that he said it WILL happen.

Exactly! I don't want oil prices to rise... who would (other than oil companies, oil producing countries, and environmental wackos)? Easy-to-access oil is in limited supply. To get more oil, it is going to cost more, and then add in the fact that the world demand for oil is going up.... well, it is simple economics... the price will rise, and other technologies will be developed as an alternative.

I did say that I could use a Volt like car and I would hardly ever have to visit the pump. My drive time is very short and a plug-in vehicle would work for me. The price has to be in line with current gas-powered vehicles though.