quote Originally posted by avengador1:

So I'm thinking, what is that? Are those the numbers that have been accumulated over the roughly 1400-year history of Islam, from the era of Mohammed, all the way to our current time?

Can anyone further define or substantiate any of that graphic?

That number for Jews: 270,000,000..? Have there been anywhere near that number of Jews that have come into this world since their history began? And what's most obviously missing? What about the number of Muslims killed by other, more radical Muslims?

I couldn't answer these questions, but I did find an interesting academic study.

Body Count: A Quantitative Review of Political Violence Across World Civilizations

The present study attempts to quantify the human death toll of religious and political violence throughout the last two millennia and relating these to religio-cultural civilizations. Adopting a modified version of Huntington’s civilizational taxonomy, the study progresses along the following lines: First, a comprehensive data list of over 3,000 violent clashes in history, 0–2008 ce was developed. We then proceeded to identify 276 of the most violent conflicts in history, all with estimated human death tolls over 10,000, and ranked them by death toll. The result was then organized along civilizational lines, in order to attain a comparative understanding of socio-religiously conditioned violence. The findings are represented in four tables, leading to a comparative evaluation of civilizational violence.

1. Antitheist Communist block
   
2. Buddhist East Asia, parts of South Asia
   
3. Christian Europe, the Americas, parts of Africa
   
4. Indic India, Nepal, Mauritius
   
5. Islamic Middle East, parts of Asia, parts of Africa
   
6. Primal-Indigenous Parts of Africa, the Americas before colonialism
   
7. Sinic China, some neighbouring states
   

Of the seven great world civilizations from 0 to 2008 CE, Islam has produced only 5.52% of the total "pie" of Political violence.

The study actually lumps together a number of kinds of violence, including Religious violence, under the umbrella term "Political violence".

Of course, there are those here who will say that in recent times, Islam has been racing to catch up with the five more lethal civilizations that are ahead of it.

I wouldn't dispute that.

But I would qualify it as "radical Islam".

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 09-17-2012).]

The so called false Christian religions are the worst of the bunch. They neither are followers of the teaching found in the Bible. The holds true for all other religions. All will claim to be peaceful people but all one has to do is to look at the end result of garbage.

Hmm...You are forgetting some 'Atheist' killings. More than 83 million (and counting)....more than any _other_ organized religion.

I've seen some totals suggesting that WWII were 'christian' killings, but I'm thinking that stacks the numbers, and isn't accurate. Probably a bunch of others that could be included like that (e.g. wars that had nothing to do with religion really).

[This message has been edited by dsnover (edited 09-17-2012).]

where did the first post get 270 million jews ?

hitler got 6 million out of 12 million jews at that time world wide

jews are people of the book
as are christians
for most of the islamic rule book people paid a small tax
never officially murdered for religion
sure there were riots and other small pogroms

but 270 million NO WAY
that is way tooo many

and I bet jews killed by christians are ahead by 10 to100 to 1 for islam
see spain and the 1500's expulsions

btw just the Americas 100 million natives killed by disease
there were huge indian populations before the white man
pluss the ones we starved or froze by stealing or burning their food fields and homes
pluss the ones we shot or stabbed

I wonder how they got a 270 million count just for jews ??????????????

Rinselberg,

How does your model account for items such as the Khmer Rouge and their "Killing Fields" or Stalinist Russia and the estimated 7+ Million that died as a result of collectivisation and starvation?

quote Originally posted by avengador1:

quote Originally posted by ray b: where did the first post get 270 million jews ? hitler got 6 million out of 12 million jews at that time world wide jews are people of the book as are christians for most of the islamic rule book people paid a small tax never officially murdered for religion sure there were riots and other small pogroms but 270 million NO WAY that is way tooo many and I bet jews killed by christians are ahead by 10 to100 to 1 for islam see spain and the 1500's expulsions btw just the Americas 100 million natives killed by disease there were huge indian populations before the white man pluss the ones we starved or froze by stealing or burning their food fields and homes pluss the ones we shot or stabbed I wonder how they got a 270 million count just for jews ??????????????

Thanks Ray, I was waiting for you to get a look at those numbers, to see what you thought of them.
They seemed "off" to me.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 09-17-2012).]

I wonder where Ray came up with a figure of 100 Mil+ indigenous Personnel (indians) killed by disease?

quote Originally posted by J-Holland: I wonder where Ray came up with a figure of 100 Mil+ indigenous Personnel (indians) killed by disease?

From The History and Sociology of Genocide:

Just A Note: The Authors contend that the government and policies of the United States of America against certain indigenous peoples in furtherance of Manifest Destiny constitutes genocide.

quote From the 1490s when Christopher Columbus set foot on the Americas to the 1890 massacre of Sioux at Wounded Knee by the United States military, the indigenous population of the Western Hemisphere may have declined, the direct cause mostly from disease, to 1.8 from as many as 100 million. Estimates of how many people were living in the Americas when Columbus arrived have varied tremendously; 20th century scholarly estimates ranged from a low of 8.4 million to a high of 112.5 million persons. Epidemic disease was the overwhelming direct cause of the population decline of the American natives. After first contacts with Europeans and Africans, some believe that the death of 90 to 95% of the native population of the New World was caused by Old World diseases such as smallpox and measles. Some estimates indicate case fatality rates of 80-90% in Native American populations during smallpox epidemics.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 09-17-2012).]

Ok, I can accept that. It would have been better to have said as many as 100 Million may have been killed, however.

[This message has been edited by J-Holland (edited 09-17-2012).]

We can't compare killings by Christians with killing for Christianity and the same goes for any other religion (or atheist.)

Those numbers seem suspect across the board but probably aren't limited to "in the name of" vs the killer just happened to be part of some group. One could argue that brown eyes have killed more than blue eyes.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 09-17-2012).]

Looks like we can all agree religion is the biggest killer in history. World would probably be a better place without it.

I suppose one must take their "victories" and solace wherever (and at whichever era) they can, even if means searching thru the timeline haystack back to 'primal indigenous".
Civilizations, religions, races, and groups move on over the centuries and learn--or most of them anyway.
Which group flew the planes into the WTC?
Which group is most of the civilized world concerned about TODAY?

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: Looks like we can all agree religion is the biggest killer in history. World would probably be a better place without it.

I don't know about that.
As it has been, yeah, probibly.

If I had MY way, I would like to see religion, and it's view men, to be a personal thing.
In otherwords, the words & ideas in the book apply only to those that freely hold & claim it.
But not to be used to judge or control the lives of others, that don't.

Religion should be between a man & his God, and their desire for a deeper understanding of each other.
But NOT as permission to impose those ideas & rules onto others, "for their own good".
And not used to rule them, or to rule a country.

The power of religion to do just that is far too tempting in the hands of mear men.

quote Originally posted by dsnover: Hmm...You are forgetting some 'Atheist' killings. More than 83 million (and counting)....more than any _other_ organized religion. I've seen some totals suggesting that WWII were 'christian' killings, but I'm thinking that stacks the numbers, and isn't accurate. Probably a bunch of others that could be included like that (e.g. wars that had nothing to do with religion really).

but is that killing in the name of atheism? i would doubt that as most atheists (including me) ae to lazy t even argue with religous people about suh thigns let alone goto war over that crap lol

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Religion should be between a man & his God, and their desire for a deeper understanding of each other.

Exactly what I think. If there is a god those who believe don't need a place of worship. Churches have and always will be a way of controlling the populous.

quote Originally posted by TK: We can't compare killings by Christians with killing for Christianity and the same goes for any other religion (or atheist.) Those numbers seem suspect across the board but probably aren't limited to "in the name of" vs the killer just happened to be part of some group. One could argue that brown eyes have killed more than blue eyes.

In addition the study only included 276 events with a death toll of 10,000 or more. So a group could have hundreds of smaller events with death tolls of 9,999 or less while another group has only a handful. I'd also be curious as to how deaths were alotted to each, as in if a event was started by Antitheists, were all deaths as a result given to them, or just the ones they themselves commited? If the Antitheists attacked a Christian group, where the deaths in defense counted against the Christian group in the totals? If the Crusades were included, were all the attacks by Islamists that lead to the retaliatory action counted (considering those instances may have been numbers lower then 10,000 deaths)? When you read something that says deaths were between 5 and 10 million for any given event, which number did they use? Did they use the lowest estimate for one group and the highest for another?

Sorry, to many factors could be manipulated to spin the results any way you want them to go, especially when we really don't have accurate numbers to begin with. In reality we will probably never "really" know the actual truth.

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 09-17-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Niterrorz: but is that killing in the name of atheism? i would doubt that as most atheists (including me) ae to lazy t even argue with religous people about suh thigns let alone goto war over that crap lol

Completely valid point (but Stalin may be an exception, but he was pretty brutal to non-religious types as well). But as I've said, I've seen US WWII casualties being linked to 'Christian' totals, and that's why I bring it up at all. If you are going to count things in a way that says 'if there were any of religious group X involved, they are attributed to their total', then you have to then include the same for the atheist side of things as well.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: The power of religion to do just that is far too tempting in the hands of mear men.

The power to do anything will be abused by mere men.

quote Originally posted by ray b: never officially murdered for religion

What makes a religious murder "official?"

state sanctions enforcement of religions fairytalles

like hitler killing jews

or the hundred years war between protestants and catlickers
or rwanda in the 20th century same sides but called tribal


ROMANS FEEDING LIONS WITH CHRISTIANS
we need more lions today !!!!!!!!!!
but in real history very few were killed
yes it happened but not very often or for long

CHRISTIANS BURNING WITCH'S HERETIC'S OR BLASPHEMERS or just other cults like cathars or jews

MOSLEM'S STONING ADULTERER'S OR OTHERS FOR RELIGIOUS REASONS

hindu killing moslems or viseaversa

ect

[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 09-18-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Khw: In addition the study only included 276 events with a death toll of 10,000 or more. So a group could have hundreds of smaller events with death tolls of 9,999 or less while another group has only a handful. I'd also be curious as to how deaths were alotted to each, as in if a event was started by Antitheists, were all deaths as a result given to them, or just the ones they themselves commited? If the Antitheists attacked a Christian group, where the deaths in defense counted against the Christian group in the totals? If the Crusades were included, were all the attacks by Islamists that lead to the retaliatory action counted (considering those instances may have been numbers lower then 10,000 deaths)? When you read something that says deaths were between 5 and 10 million for any given event, which number did they use? Did they use the lowest estimate for one group and the highest for another? Sorry, to many factors could be manipulated to spin the results any way you want them to go, especially when we really don't have accurate numbers to begin with. In reality we will probably never "really" know the actual truth.

Anti-theists or atheists?

I think the only way we can know if their conclusions are valid is to look at their methods and raw data. I'm not up for that and I don't have a need to assign a group as the worst killers in history.

quote Originally posted by ray b: yes but good men do good bad men do evil but for a good man to do evil deeds that requires religion

There is no good man.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: There is no good man.

Limited in his nature, infinite in his desire, man is a fallen god who remembers heaven. ~ Alphonse de Lamartine

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Limited in his nature, infinite in his desire, man is a fallen god who remembers heaven. ~ Alphonse de Lamartine

I see it as a fallen creation.

the general honest spiritual followers are fine.
it is the conservative extremists in all these religions which do the damage
frightened by loss of power

it is an endless slice of BS Pie. and it doesnt just go for religions.
these jackholes will do anything to divide people up into them/us, and make excuses for killing "them".

the problem is not the religions.

looking back thru the history of "thems"....what does one find?......

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Good point, and what is the outcome, is who decides which group did the most killing going to gain followers and then organize a group and hunt them down?

I would hope not. I am not a supporter of "sins of the father" at any level.

Well... whenever I play Civilization, I ALWAYS.... I mean ALWAYS play the Americans. And every time, I totally destroy the other civilizations, I mean, I simply wipe EVERYONE out.

The very first civilizations that I go for are the French, Russia, and China, although I feel bad sometimes for the Russians, but I still raze all their cities. But man, the first ones I go for when I can is France. When I know that they're on the global map, I focus ALL my resources to wipe them out. I will destroy all their cities except Paris... I usually take over Paris as a little trophy. The only problem is, they're so damned lazy that it takes them FOREVER to build anything. I mean, seriously... even a Granary, there can be like 3 million Frenchmen in there, and they can't figure out how to build a damned Granary. I can go outside right now and build one with some lumber, a few nails, and a hammer... I mean, at least a makeshift one... but the French... NOOOOO... it says it'll take like 10000 turns to produce a granary that would take the Germans or the Americans like 30 turns to make. I mean, they're always bitching and complaining, so I build them a Colloseum, a Library, a Cathedral, whatever I can build... and they still ***** and complain, they're always unhappy.

Bastards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history

It seems to me that the same people that were complaining about Avengadors posting are starting new threads about his posts...

What gives?

Brad

Haters gonna hate.

An Iranian man recently granted asylum in the U.S. after converting from Islam to Christianity he still fears the long arm of the rogue regime in Tehran. The regime in Tehran has recently vowed to "hunt down" the makers of an anti-Islam film trailer and has upped the price on novelist Salman Rushdie's head for offending the religion. Because apostasy - renouncing Islam - is punishable by death,
He lives in fear.
Iranian Christian convert who recently won asylum
"I feel if I reveal that I converted to Christianity, the Muslims here in the USA will retaliate against me," the man, who is in his early thirties, said in an exclusive interview. "In many verses in the Koran, Muslims are told to kill, behead, cut fingers, or severely arrest and tie the kafirs," or nonbelievers.
The man was born into a Muslim family in northern Iran. But as he grew older, he said he began to question the harsh application of Islamic doctrine in Iranian society.
"I asked myself why men were prohibited from shaking hands with women or why women were required to wear a scarf or veil," he said. "In addition, the Koran says to kill [nonbelievers]."
"I questioned whether these teachings were at odds with humanity and morality," he said, adding that he believes many people in Iran wrestle with the same issues.

After moving to the U.S. in 2009 as a doctoral student, the man befriended several Christians and began attending Bible study. Two years later, he converted to Christianity, then sought the help of the American Center for Law and Justice in a bid to obtain asylum. In July, a federal court granted his request, allowing him to remain in the country.
Had he returned to his homeland, the man would have almost certainly faced imprisonment and possibly death

In Dallas TX a Muslim father KILLED his two beautiful daughters only because they were dating white boys. He said it was his right to do so because his daughter insulted him and his religion. In his country he would have been honored for killing his daughters.
I for one am sick of hearing their propaganda and lies all they want to do is invade our country and kill us. They call it Sleeper Cells that are ready to lie for years before they strike like the Snakes they are. Anyone that claims Islam is peaceful is telling lies. Just look around and read your history books this group of people has killed and taken over countries from the beginning of time.

Let us not forget the Muslim Solider in Texas that turned his weapons on our sons and daughters at FT Hood. I wonder what they thought when his bullets were ripping through their bodies. Could it have been my friend my brother why are you killing me you said your religion was of peace?

quote Originally posted by 2.5: There is no good man.

that is christian fairytale dogma
hint snakes can't talk
btw the angel with the flaming sword
that should be a big tourist attraction
where is that ?

so no
there are good or at least better then most people
rare and worth finding I have known a few
the idea that we are evil because of a chic a snake and an apple
is beyond imposable and not valid

as I quoted
there are good men
there are bad men

but to get a good man to do evil
that requires a religion

cut out a beating heart Aztec religion
burn a newborn royal or noble baby carthage baal religion
throw a virgin in a volcano ?
or leave them on a mt top inca religion
stone a drunken disrespectful kid jewish bible religion
burn a witch or heretic or blasphemer christian religion
punish sex pron drinking drugs even rock&roll by some cults christian religion
stone or beheading muslim religion for far too much dumb things
bride burning widow burning hindu religion
buddhist ??? really got nothing but ?????

quote Originally posted by TK: Anti-theists or atheists? I think the only way we can know if their conclusions are valid is to look at their methods and raw data. I'm not up for that and I don't have a need to assign a group as the worst killers in history.

Antitheists. The pie chart he posted does not list Aetheists.

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 09-18-2012).]

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: It seems to me that the same people that were complaining about Avengadors posting are starting new threads about his posts... What gives?

I never complained about how Avengador1 has been going about his posting. I took this AV1 post out of another thread because I thought it deserved a seperate discussion.

I asked if anyone could define or substantiate the numbers in this graphic that AV1 posted. What period of history does it represent, and what evidence is there that Muslims could have called as many as 270,000,000 Jews in all of Islamic history? When it seems that Jews have never been that widely represented in all of recorded history. Is it just a typo? Is that really supposed to be 270,000 Jews?

AV1 posts a lot, but substantiates very little of what he posts.

I scanned this long Wikipedia entry that AV1 posted, but I don't see how it substantiates this graphic.

quote Originally posted by ray b: the idea that we are evil because of a chic a snake and an apple is beyond imposable and not valid

From the 1667 John Milton masterpiece, Paradise Lost:

Not well conceived of God, who though his power
Create could repeat, yet would be loath
Us to abolish, lest the Adversary
Triumph

Storyline:

Eve has eaten the fruit and now Adam must decide whether to join her in sin or live without her. Eve was tricked into thinking that knowledge would would make her life better; more equal with Adam. Adam is not interested in knowledge, rather he is afraid of death. The thought that Eve might die is too much for him, but he reasons that God’s warning is just a bluff and that he would never kill them, lest Satan be triumphant.

Relevance:

Earlier in the story after Eve has eaten the fruit, but before she had given it to Adam, she is very troubled by what her next move should be. Eve considers not sharing the fruit with Adam because for the moment she believes she is his intellectual superior. This idea quickly fades when she remembers that the price for disobedience is death. She becomes jealous with the thought that if she dies God could create another Eve for Adam. This is interesting because right now it is Eve who is trusting God, even if it is only trust caused by fear. Adam does not share the same fear as he makes his decision. He does not fear separation from God or even death. His only fear is losing Eve. In this way he makes Eve a false idol and breaks the first commandment that God will later give to Moses. “I am the Lord your God, you shall not have false gods before me.”

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 09-18-2012).]

quote Originally posted by rinselberg: I never complained about how Avengador1 has been going about his posting. I took this AV1 post out of another thread because I thought it deserved a seperate discussion. I asked if anyone could define or substantiate the numbers in this graphic that AV1 posted. What period of history does it represent, and what evidence is there that Muslims could have called as many as 270,000,000 Jews in all of Islamic history? When it seems that Jews have never been that widely represented in all of recorded history. Is it just a typo? Is that really supposed to be 270,000 Jews? AV1 posts a lot, but substantiates very little of what he posts. I scanned this long Wikipedia entry that AV1 posted, but I don't see how it substantiates this graphic.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/043583.html

quote Originally Posted by Cliff Pennock Do not start threads about other threads. So you get in a heated discussion in one of the threads. You get the feeling you are not getting your point across. So you feel the need to start a new thread explaining what you meant in the first thread. Don't. Since there's already a thread on the subject, say it there.

You may not have been one of them rinselberg, but many posting in this thread are the very people complaining that he never posted anything relevant, or posted too often. They want to have their cake and eat it too, and I'm thinking it's not right.

Brad

The graphic that AV1 posted went beyond the more narrow topic of that thread "Muslims Attack US Embassy, Burn American Flag on 9/11, While Team Obama Apologizes" into the more general issue of Islam and violence.

I did no wrong.

quote Originally posted by Khw: Antitheists. The pie chart he posted does not list Aetheists.

Hmm, what is an anti-theist? Someone that is against a god they think exists? Seems a bit futile.