The US Govt announced late yesterday that it will not loan GM the money to buy/merge with Chrysler. GM, does not have the money to buy Chrysler on it's own, so the owner of Chrysler is re-opening talks with other interested parties such as VW, Nissan.
GM's stock may drop this morning on this "after market close" news. If you own GM stock, you may wish to keep an eye on it a little more than usual.

GM rolls snake eyes

The feds got balls about 3 trillion dollars to late.

yes, this is a tough call
loan money so job can get lost
but them jobs are lost anyways

GM needs to borrow Exxon's management and their business model for about a year, so it can turn itself around. Or, sell itself to Exxon.
"Best run company in the world takes over one of the worst run companies in the world"

quote Originally posted by maryjane: GM needs to borrow Exxon's management and their business model for about a year, so it can turn itself around. Or, sell itself to Exxon. "Best run company in the world takes over one of the worst run companies in the world"

If EXXON ran GM we'd have cars getting 5mpg and all running V10 motors with super chargers!

quote Originally posted by maryjane: GM needs to borrow Exxon's management and their business model for about a year, so it can turn itself around. Or, ........

....dust off that patent for that 75 mpg carburator that they acquired. [/conspiracy]

quote Snake eyes link There is another and perhaps more basic reason for not giving car companies cash. While the banking problems are a systemic and reach into every corner of the world's financial infrastructure, problems in the auto sector are parochial and belong to Detroit.

If GM goes away another car company will provide. I think it is also true of banks. We bailed out greed.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: .... If GM goes away another car company will provide. I think it is also true of banks. We bailed out greed.

yes - this is much of what I would REALLY like to see - instead of a bail out/loan - how's about a compitition to give this money to a group who proposes the best startup. maybe even do it reality show style

because especially with the banks - WTF else do they need, becsides the money? with the car companies, there is ALOT more physical requirements.

because yes - it is NOTHING but greed which is sinking these companies.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: If EXXON ran GM we'd have cars getting 5mpg and all running V10 motors with super chargers!

Works for me.

WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND IT IS US,,even with chysler finished ,,the people do not know ,,they do not understand,, worse they do not care what is happening ,,only if they lose thier JOB and can not find another will they care
Continue the foreign product buying joy fest .. when we change it will be way to late
we are at the cliff,, every thing seems O K just a little shakey ,,,all will be right YES?
America can only be destroyed from within,,it is happening right now,,at leasr gun and ammo sales are outstanding ??Hmmmmm
GOD GUNS GUTS AND FIERO,S made America great, Probably 40% of forum members do not understand this statement

quote Originally posted by uhlanstan: WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND IT IS US,,even with chysler finished ,,the people do not know ,,they do not understand,, worse they do not care what is happening ,,only if they lose thier JOB and can not find another will they care Continue the foreign product buying joy fest .. when we change it will be way to late we are at the cliff,, every thing seems O K just a little shakey ,,,all will be right YES? America can only be destroyed from within,,it is happening right now,,at leasr gun and ammo sales are outstanding ??Hmmmmm GOD GUNS GUTS AND FIERO,S made America great, Probably 40% of forum members do not understand this statement

yup...save $10, and unemploy a town - woohoo! great deal!

the easy check: better before or after? well, lets see: 5 guys better, thousands not...hmmm....

EVERY dollar which leaves US shores is a bad thing. there is a finite number of dollars.

" the demise of Chrysler is greatly exaggerated " The only thing thats kept GM afloat for last few years is theyre diversified into other fields. They havent made a worthwhile car since the late 80s.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: The feds got balls about 3 trillion dollars to late.

Seriously.

To be bluntly honest though, I would rather see GM and Chrysler go down than fall into the hands of an Asian car company. That is the ultimate disgrace, die with some honor!

~ Derek

quote Originally posted by Phranc: If EXXON ran GM we'd have cars getting 5mpg and all running V10 motors with super chargers!

Watch out for VW, BMW Audi and Mercedes..I wouldn't be surprised if they bought shares in them. They bought 'Skoda', the biggest joke in the European Auto Market, and made it profitable. If they can do that with Skoda, they might well fancy their chances in the US. But they will probably wait until unemployment in the USA peaks, and then move, if it is not too late. Or I might be completely wrong..wouldn't surprise me either way.
Nick

I doubt Mercedes will jump back in these sweepstakes. They tried it, lost their shirt, and sold out to Cerebus to get us to this point.

GM isn't finished, but their North American operations might be. Their global operations are still profitable, competitive, and in good shape. I doubt they will let NA take it all down. Look for them to spin off the NA operations, and go into C11 reorganization sometime next year (maybe summer) if the economy doesn't rebound. C11 will put the operation into the hands of a trustee who can tear up the union contracts, lower wages and benefits, cut out portions of GM NA that are just not needed (some divisions) and if the company comes through the other end ok, it can then be brought back into the fold of GM Global. (Plus it would allow executives to spin off with the Global operations and avoid having to take the fall for this one).

This is sort of what has happened with Delphi, as only Delphi NA operations were in C11, the global operations were seperated to prevent the whole operation from having to go through the reorganization.

[This message has been edited by Fformula88 (edited 10-31-2008).]

Does anybody even realize that the main reason GM and the rest are doing so bad is all the buyouts of employees?

This has been the plan all along. Get rid of any union employee who is willing to take the buyout. Run the money out so they look like they are doing bad, when in reality they are not as bad as it looks.

On topic, if GM was allowed to buy Chrysler that would be the biggest mistake they or the government could make. They don’t have the cash to buy it why should the government help them?

GM needs to stop try to gut the union and get to work. Build cars and trucks that are good reliable and get even better mileage. that’s what will dig them out of the hole.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

Why are they buying out? Because its cheaper then not buying them out.

If GM is going to get rid of the union workers at the plans like this good for them. Now all we need to do is find a way to get rid of all the union workers in the suppliers too. GM should keep gutting the unions since the unions have been the biggest burden on GM for years.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Does anybody even realize that the main reason GM and the rest are doing so bad is all the buyouts of employees? This has been the plan all along. Get rid of any union employee who is willing to take the buyout. Run the money out so they look like they are doing bad, when in reality they are not as bad as it looks. On topic, if GM was allowed to buy Chrysler that would be the biggest mistake they or the government could make. They don’t have the cash to buy it why should the government help them? GM needs to stop try to gut the union and get to work. Build cars and trucks that are good reliable and get even better mileage. that’s what will dig them out of the hole. Steve

Here we go again...more union talking points, probably lifted straight from the last UAW bulletin. I realize the union indoctrinates you guys, but man, you've drank a lot of the Kool-Aid.

The buyouts were simply a way to get grossly overpaid employees off the payroll. It is not the "main reason" for their current problems. You need to take your union blinders off and look at the whole picture. GM is a mess, from top management on down, and that includes the UAW. Yes, management at GM is bad and has been bad for a long time. But it's not just the upper end that is causing problems. If you don't realize that, and accept the fact that the UAW has played a significant role in the crippling of GM, then you are simply part of the problem.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: If EXXON ran GM we'd have cars getting 5mpg and all running V10 motors with super chargers!

Cool!

quote Originally posted by uhlanstan: Probably 40% of forum members do not understand this statement

Or pretty much anything else you say for that matter.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: GM needs to stop try to gut the union and get to work. Build cars and trucks that are good reliable and get even better mileage. that’s what will dig them out of the hole. Steve

The sad bit is they already have them. They just don't sell them in significant numbers in America.

quote Originally posted by GT86: I hear all sorts of people say "domestics are just as good as the imports". Even if that were true, being "just as good" isn't enough, not when you're trying to shake negative perceptions. They've got to be better and cheaper, which is exactly how the imports took market share in the first place.

You are right. The better mousetrap sells.

quote Originally posted by GT86: GM needs to do more than this. They need to make them at a competitive price, and they need to make better stuff than the competition. See, they've lost so much market share that they can't simply match the competition, they've got to exceed what the others are offering. That's what happens when you let your market image slide. It's easy to go downhill, but awfully hard to regain that lost ground. I hear all sorts of people say "domestics are just as good as the imports". Even if that were true, being "just as good" isn't enough, not when you're trying to shake negative perceptions. They've got to be better and cheaper, which is exactly how the imports took market share in the first place.

Well in that case we need to tell the EPA to back off on unrealistic requirements for automobiles so they can actually build dependable cars. Seeing as how most of the cost of a car comes from trying to meet unrealistically high EPA standards. Now don't misconstrue this as saying just pollute the hell out of the air that is not what I am saying we need to look and make realistic standards instead of trying to enforce stupid pie in the sky standards. Also the unions need to be taken out back of their company locations and shot in the back of the head. Their is no real use for unions these days other than to soak as much money as possible from a company. Look at what the union was doing to Boeing lately. I know from watching my wife who's job has a union and all they seen to do is take money out of her paycheck and use the members personal information to further their own political agenda. My wife got close to a dozen phone calls the last couple of weeks from her union not for union business or even work but to tell her to vote for Obama. Seriously their was a time when unions were needed but that time has long past and is gone so should the unions be.

I think that it is somewhat of a falicy to throw a blanket over GM's whole lineup and say they make cars that are just as good as a complete package as the competition. If you start looking at model lines, such a statement just doesn't hold water.

Take cars. What does GM have that is competitively priced, and is a great alternative to foreign competition? First thing that comes to mind is the new Malibu. It was done right for a change and has seen stronger sales than past Malibus because of it. It's still not rated as well as Camry or Accord by the press, but in the room.

However, that's just one car. Everything else on the platform starts falling back fast. The Aura isn't as nice as the Malibu, although it isn't bad. Still, Saturn even had it's dealers stock a Camry and Accord and offer back to back test drives. That idea fizzled. It's a good, reliable car, but the competition is offering very good, reliable cars. Then there is the G6. It's too old now. Interior is just a sea of hard black plastic. Ride is a bit firm to give it a "Pontiac" feel.

The story goes on. Cobalt is not really competitive with cars like Civic, Corolla, etc... again, it is good, reliable vehicle, but as a total package it's a lesser class of a vehicle.

Chrysler is worse... cars like the new Sebring and Avenger are disasters in the marketplace. I have a family member that owns a Sebring. It is a decent appliance car... so so on exterior looks, embarassing interior quality, and the engine is rather coarse for an all new 4 banger. It is definately not as nice as a foreign car, or even the Malibu. As a result, most of what they built resides in rental fleets. Ford is a little better with Fusion, but the 500/Taurus really has never taken off.

Oh, and at the end of the day, none of them have a good reputation for quality products, and any gaffe will reinforce someone's fears about their quality. If they want to sell at MSRP and be taken seriously, they MUST be making the unquestionably best cars on the market, consistently, across their whole line, and then be patient as it will still take time for people to discover it. People went to imports when they experienced domestic junk and got tired of it, and it will take a lot to earn their trust back.

quote Originally posted by FieroJam: Well in that case we need to tell the EPA to back off on unrealistic requirements for automobiles so they can actually build dependable cars. Seeing as how most of the cost of a car comes from trying to meet unrealistically high EPA standards. Now don't misconstrue this as saying just pollute the hell out of the air that is not what I am saying we need to look and make realistic standards instead of trying to enforce stupid pie in the sky standards.

The imports have to meet the same standards, so it's not like they're getting an unfair advantage.

But like I said, at this point GM and the rest of the domestics can't just match the competition. Their brand image is too damaged. They have to surpass the competition, and they'll have to be cheaper too, at least until the damage is repaired (if it ever is).

Report is now out. Ford's sales down 30% compared to 1 yr ago.
GM's sales down 34% compared to 1 yr ago.

News just said GM was down 45% for October. I might have heard wrong if its 35%. Have to watch more later, I just caught the end of it as I walked in.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: News just said GM was down 45% for October. I might have heard wrong if its 35%. Have to watch more later, I just caught the end of it as I walked in.

You are correct. I read it wrong.

quote SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) - The auto industry on Monday posted its worst monthly U.S. sales tally in 25 years, with General Motors Corp. leading a barrage of sobering reports from car makers struggling to attract buyers in the deepening credit crisis. GM's 45% drop plumbed the lowliest of Wall Street's grim projections, while potential merger partner Chrysler posted a 35% decline. And Ford Motor Co. handed in a 30% drop, touting the launch of its new F-Series pickup as a silver lining in an economic environment marked by challenges "the likes of which haven't been seen in more than two decades."

It was Chrysler that dropped 35%

Ford had the smallest % drop of the 3 at 30%.

Honda and Toyota both down about 20%.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 11-03-2008).]

Thanks for checking it. 45% is DISASTEROUS for any kind of business. As a car manufacturer, they surely cant sustain that kind of loss for very long. Especially since theyve been losing so much already in the recent past. Thats losing HALF of their business. Mine went like that, and I closed up, retired. They dont pick that up really soon, they may be doing bankruptcy by summer.

People have to buy cars.... this will turn around. The problem is that cars are too expensive for what you get. I was looking at a G6 to replace my POS Aztek. I was trying to decide between fixing the Aztek (again) or buy something with a warranty. Well, even with discounts and Pontiac customer loyality certificates I couldn't get anything close to $12K. The baseline G6 was $14K. Way too much for that vehicle. It didn't have any options! Now, GM raised the price of the G6.... WHAT? I don't get that. Now certainly I won't buy one.

GM needs to start making cars that are affordable... plain and simple.

J.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: People have to buy cars.... this will turn around.

No people don't. People want to buy new cars. They don't have to.

For example, I'm about to pay off my truck, bought it at the end of 2003. I don't have any other friends/family who are still driving the same vehicle they were then. And I put more than twice the miles on my truck in that time than anyone else has.

They didn't need new ones 'cuz their old ones were breaking down and too expensive to fix. They simply wanted new vehicles.

To those that say we need to make cars cheaper here to compete with the Global crap.

How are you supposed to compete with companies who pay their employees less than minimum wage here?

Hundi comes to mind.

You expect to compete with them?

If they are selling cars for less than what our companies have in parts how are you supposed to compete with that?

Keep buying imports, send America right down the tubes.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

Ah... I have to buy a car. I have put more money into my Aztek than it is worth and there will be a point that I will need a new engine or transmission (again). I have a truck for winter.... it is rusting away (frame/suspension). Why would I try to fix this? It is better to buy a replacement.

I need a car to travel. We do not have train or bus service where I need to go. Also, I need a car that is reliable... when it is -30F and the car breaks down.... then it is not safe.... I need to replace it, because I need to get to where I have to be. It is not a choice, I have to travel.

J.

quote Originally posted by naskie18: No people don't. People want to buy new cars. They don't have to. For example, I'm about to pay off my truck, bought it at the end of 2003. I don't have any other friends/family who are still driving the same vehicle they were then. And I put more than twice the miles on my truck in that time than anyone else has. They didn't need new ones 'cuz their old ones were breaking down and too expensive to fix. They simply wanted new vehicles.

The unions are just one factor in the destruction of our biggest industry ,,If GM goes under it will have a real domino effect Detroit has become one of our armpits,,all car manufacture needs to move from detroit,to another state unfortunately they will move many to another country,only the truely ignorant man could buy a jap or korean car in the past year ,continue to wipe your jap loving hole with the american flag ,, we are going to a bad place and you travel in a stupor of ignorant bliss

GOD GUNS GUTS AND FIERO,S MADE AMERICA GREAT,, every new nip car drives a dagger into the heart of america ,morons look around you,, no not in your front yard ,,look accross the greatest Nation state in the history of the world ,, look at what WE have done,, all of us <.. THe japs love you long time baby ,,WAKE UP!!!

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: I want an affordable car, not necessarily a cheap car. There is a lot that goes into that decision... price, value, resale. A stripped down G6 for $14K is not a value. I have one of those already (stripped down Aztek).... it is worth about $1000K on trade-in. That is all.. it is worth more in parts than whole. That gets back to value. I have had my share of quality American built vehicles, but this Aztek and GM's lack of caring about it's problems have left me little choice in what to buy. I used to think "buy american"... my dad is retired from GM (UAW)... but even he is disappointed with the quality of the vehicles and is looking outside of GM..... How can I be loyal when GM doesn't care about my problems (with their own product)? Why should I be loyal? Why should I be loyal to the Pontiac dealership that sold me the POS Aztek and wouldn't help me an ANY way when the tranny went out and the intake gasket leaked (within weeks of buying)? If GM wants my business then they have to earn it.... "fool me once..." J.

All those are the dealer. Not GM, you got a POS dealer. Granted that is what most people see as GM but it is just one part.

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

The dealer doesn't make the cars though....

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: The dealer doesn't make the cars though....

Nope. The employees do.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: I have had my share of quality American built vehicles, but this Aztek and GM's lack of caring about it's problems have left me little choice in what to buy. I used to think "buy american"... my dad is retired from GM (UAW)... but even he is disappointed with the quality of the vehicles and is looking outside of GM..... How can I be loyal when GM doesn't care about my problems (with their own product)? Why should I be loyal? Why should I be loyal to the Pontiac dealership that sold me the POS Aztek and wouldn't help me an ANY way when the tranny went out and the intake gasket leaked (within weeks of buying)? If GM wants my business then they have to earn it.... "fool me once..." J.

This has been my experience with GM dealers as well. Simply put, they are ashamed of the poorly made products that they are stuck selling to the public. I can remember when I first got my Fiero and I went into the dealership to see if I could get one of their then new promotional license plate brackets for my car. Much to my dissapointment, I was told that they were unable to do this as the Fiero was a mistake they wish never would have happened. What the heck? How professional is this? This combined, with their absolute inability to fix any of the problems I had with the car made me promise to myself I would never give this company another cent of my money. Ford on the other hand, I have had nothing but good experiences with. The quality of their service and treatment of me as a customer was simply above and beyond what I had expected. I would not hesitate a second to buy another product from them at all.

[This message has been edited by loafer87gt (edited 11-04-2008).]