This is the most valid challenge to the authenticity of 9/11 I have ever seen (and the only one). I know governments do engage in malfeasance, but with what is put forth in this documentary using documented facts, in addition to the plane crash investigations (Air Emergency) I've watched on National Geographic and Discovery channel, as well as my vast general knowledge, there is no way I could deny the implication in this documentary and be respected as a reasonably intelligent human being by someone who unquestionably is (modesty).

Titled "loose change"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E3oIbO0AWE

Slowly backing out of thread before going off the deep end........

I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale, any interest?
It's one thing to be open minded, it's another to be so much that your brains fall out.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 06-20-2008).]

That is an interesting film to watch. I don't really believe anything I see on tv, or in the movies.

I only trust what is said of PFF : p

------------------
------------------

"what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul"

can we just let this thread die before the BS gets flung?

PLEASE

I really enjoyed the film, and I also liked Spiderman, The Hulk, Red Dawn, and other adventure fantasy films.

That's the kind of attitude I had behind it all these years also, because I couldn't imagine such a crime and I didn't try to. If you haven't watched it, take a look at it and if you still feel the same way there's no reason for anyone to debate about it. If the footage and documents put forth are genuine then to me it's a valid challenge.

Remember, in this country we have prosecutors who knowingly put innocent people in jail or on death row, and defense attorneys who will lie to the highest of their ability to keep criminals out of jail where they belong for what amounts to small change maybe even pennies when compared to the billions involved in a nations economy, so why wouldn't certain elements of a government exercise the same zeal when its interests valuing thousands of times more than what lawyers sacrifice people for is threatened? Hitler and Stalin killed thousands of their own people for free and so did Paul Pot of Cambodia and many other despots. Imangine how many they could have killed if billions of dollars were involved instead of just being evil.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 06-20-2008).]

Joseph, are you aware of Zeitgeist which we discussed in This thread? If not, check it out.

Gecko's sig seems so appropriate for the makers of this "documentary". But, questions must always be asked.
Did we really walk on the moon?
"Isn't it true, Mr. Chairman, that The Matrix is actually a documentary?"
"Have you now, or have you ever been ,a member of the Communist Party?"
"Where is Elvis--really?"
"Do these pants make me look fat?"

http://www.youtube.com/resu...&oq=loose+change+vs+

Watch the videos of the Loose Change vs Popular Mechanics debate. The guys who did the Loose Change video are very good at innuendo and anecdotal evidence but have no real hard facts. Just a couple of loons.

quote Originally posted by 4-mulaGT: can we just let this thread die before the BS gets flung? PLEASE

Too Late. It was flying in full force from the first post.

I would also like to point out the flaw in your topic title. Even if the Loose Screw - I mean Circuit - er Change people are correct and it was all a conspiracy, it still remains a tragedy.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: "Do these pants make me look fat?"

Yes.

"Direct TV hates puppies". Fact: DirectTV charges extra for HD channels. Time Warner includes up to 50 HD channels for free in all of their plans. Fact: all that money you spend on those HD channels could buy a lot of puppy food. Ergo, DirectTV hates puppies.
Who hates puppies?

Loose Change.

How's the saying go?

"Welcome to 3 years ago."

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: Who hates puppies?

I do.


~ Derek

[This message has been edited by Derek_85GT (edited 06-21-2008).]

The popular mechanic guys are getting owned by the loose change guys. They "talked to experts" thats the only thing they can say ever.

Wow... These popular mechanics people are retarded.... Fuel poured down to the BOTTOM FLOOR and "started fires and explosions".

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 06-21-2008).]

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Wow... These popular mechanics people are retarded.... Fuel poured down to the BOTTOM FLOOR and "started fires and explosions".

Ummm...

Burning fuel (or debris, for that matter) falls into an open elevator shaft. Is it going to flow up to the roof?

http://www.thebestpageinthe...t/c.cgi?u=911_morons
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/fa...eets/faqs_8_2006.htm
http://www.popularmechanics...ary_law/1227842.html

And by far the best one...

http://www.loosechangeguide...ooseChangeGuide.html

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Ummm... Burning fuel (or debris, for that matter) falls into an open elevator shaft. Is it going to flow up to the roof?

I'm fairly certain that he is joking.

started watching the "loose change" - and it is very well put together.

but - as everything else like this - knowing something and being able to prove something are 2 different things.

yes - there is a VERY good chance many people knew. but - what action can be taken? you cannot evacuate on every threat. you can only act on what you can prove. right now - I can assume "they" know about a great many plans. what they dont know is which are actually in action, which are never gonna happen, and which failed.

next - there is the implications of actually being part of the plan. yes, many of the transactions which took place does seem to indicate prior knowledge & a finger in the pot. like a 99 year lease & a specific insurance policy taken out just prior to the attack. yes, just got lucky.

and, how this corrolated to older "colder war" plans. but, I am sure there are endless "cold war" plans which can cover just about any event.

and who benifits? actually quite easy to see how many people have gotten VERY fat pockets thanks to this. best thing that ever happened for them. the military gets to play war and the law makers get to sack rights. just what they have been waiting for. anyone who questions will be instantly unamerican. yup, best thing that ever happened. yup, just got lucky.

just be happy is was bankers & lawyers that got slammed, eh?

quote Originally posted by Chump: I'm fairly certain that he is joking.

Not really, i dont see how fuel can spill down and then catch on fire... kerosene is not that flammable.to the point where it will stay lit while falling down a shaft at freefall speeds.

I also dont believe that loosechange bit very much anymore, (although I entertained the idea for awhile). I just think that the popular mechanic guys brough NOTHING to the table evidence wise... the LC guys had information, as incorrect or missquoted as it may have been.

I didn't watch the whatever it is posted above but, I do truly believe with all my heart that it is totally possible that our own government or those in control of such power and influence could have orchestrated the entire event.
I also believe if wasn't a controlled event then there will be in the future.

I trust no one. I definitely don't trust a group of no ones.

------------------
Though I am branded a devil in priests clothing I cast not the raiment I wear for I am not beholden to any flock with which any color has been given to me.

Didn't watch but I do have one point:
We grounded all the planes but let everyone walk away. If we interviewed everyone as they exited the planes (not on the planes but in a secure area) I'm sure there were others that didn't get the chance to hijack. I've heard stories of several other targets.

[This message has been edited by Gokart Mozart (edited 06-22-2008).]

for those who havent watch the video - and I dont blame ya - it is LONG
watch the first 10 mins.

OMG, we are not saying that "loose Change" is legitimized fact, are we? I think opinions are great. I love my Pontiacs, and don't want a Chevy. I think Pontiac is a better car. That is my opinion. I can not (really) back that up with facts, only my feelings. Much the same, loose change does not have true solid facts to back it up, only ideas and opinions of what could have happened. These are interesting hypothesis, but so is the idea of using a blackhole/wormhole to travel through time.

Please tell me you raised this subject to be objective, not because you truly feel this is the true facts of the case that we must all come to know as the truth. I appreciate that people are willing to go out on a limb to open up various possibilities. If people did not, Columbus would not have landed here in the United States, we could still be a colony of England, and Neil Armstrong would be nothing more than a pilot in obscurity.

Objectivity keeps us creative and educated, yet so long as we understand we must remain objective while studying that which we are observing. We must acknowledge differing views, while straining out false truths and retaining facts. So long as we understand the difference, and educate ourselves as we research such accusations on our own, we have become better for it. This is why I like Michael Moore (Though I think he is a whack-job) even when he lies to your face. It allows me the ability to further educate myself (and further disprove what comes out of his mouth). His rhetoric tends to be phrased as fact when he has not the proper documentation and research to back up his claims.

Please keep an open mind while using the facts as your yardstick. My 2 cents. Enjoy.

Myke

quote Originally posted by Myke: OMG, we are not saying that "loose Change" is legitimized fact, are we? I think opinions are great. I love my Pontiacs, and don't want a Chevy. I think Pontiac is a better car. That is my opinion. I can not (really) back that up with facts, only my feelings. Much the same, loose change does not have true solid facts to back it up, only ideas and opinions of what could have happened. These are interesting hypothesis, but so is the idea of using a blackhole/wormhole to travel through time. .....

which is why I mentioned watch the first 10 mins. because that is all recorded/documented history.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: I didn't watch the whatever it is posted above but, I do truly believe with all my heart that it is totally possible that our own government or those in control of such power and influence could have orchestrated the entire event. I also believe if wasn't a controlled event then there will be in the future. I trust no one. I definitely don't trust a group of no ones.

...and this one reason how and why people believe such conspiracies. It often starts with a preconceived notion, that the government is totally evil, therefore they orchestrated 9-11.

The two film makers are assholes. I am watching the debate videos with two guys from Popular Science mag. The Loose Screw...er...Change guys are rude, they interrupt the others, and at one point a PS guy says "I notice that you call anyone who disagrees with you a liar". The response was "I'M NOT CALLING ANYONE A LIAR, I'M CALLING *YOU* A LIAR!". I've noticed this too, when you are having a debate with someone who is being driven by emotion rather than logic. They go to insults (ad homenims) and accusations.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: I've noticed this too, when you are having a debate with someone who is being driven by emotion rather than logic. They go to insults (ad homenims) and accusations.

I see this here in OT all the time.

Look guys, I never really considered the incident a conspiracy and that's part of the reason I am just now seeing this documentary that was sent to me personally to view and give my opinion. I shared it here in the "Totally off topic" forum because I felt some very interesting points were raised and that it might interest some of the members here as well.

For those who have made comments along the lines of ending the thread due to its potential to provoke tactless debate and insults, here is what I do when I encounter a situation like this;

I don't post a word, if it appears to be a disaster in progress, I back out of the thread and move on.

There's absolutely no good reason for members to carry on in a derogatory manner over a simple difference of oppinion about an issue not a single one of us can change the outcome of.
Of course it's a tragedy despite the topic heading, but in the wake of an implied inside job it becomes a form of espionage and murder. If you believe it's non-sense, don't justify it with a response.

The facts that interest me are those surrounding what happens to a plane when it crashes, I've watched many retold air crash stories and the engines don't disappear into thin air. If I'm missing something I'm sure I'll be brought up to speed at some point by someone who knows better.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 06-22-2008).]

Ok, how about from an architectural point of view how the towers fell? http://www.ae911truth.org/

Watch the DVD Online "How the Towers Fell"
http://www.ae911truth.org/flashmov11.htm

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: The facts that interest me are those surrounding what happens to a plane when it crashes, I've watched many retold air crash stories and the engines don't disappear into thin air. If I'm missing something I'm sure I'll be brought up to speed at some point by someone who knows better.

Do they make some claims about the engines in the video? I only watched the first 10 minutes or so.

OK, imagine getting together 19 people (at least) you trust completely, organizing them in secret, getting some of them trained up to some level of ability to fly a passenger jet, getting them clean false identities, laying out a coordinated plan to hijack at least 4 commercial aircraft simultaniously and carry out the 9/11 attacks. Difficult and far fetched, but doable with the right contacts and enouhg time and money. Now imagine organizing the operation described in Loose Change, demolition experts, explosives smuggled into the WTC and planted, hundreds of airline passengers who were supposed to be on these flights, faked cell phone calls, remote control airliners, an unidentified missile, convincing every CIA, NSA, FBI, armed forcse presonnel and any other unnamed/unknown government agency operative to keep their mouths shut when they realized they have helped to murder 3000 innocent people. Anything that large would have sprung leaks as the people involved realized what they had been involved in and confessed to anyone who would listen before they blew their brains out. The number of people needed to be in the know to pull this off is way to large to keep it a secret.

quote Originally posted by Grandaddy84SE: OK, imagine getting together 19 people (at least) you trust completely, organizing them in secret, getting some of them trained up to some level of ability to fly a passenger jet, getting them clean false identities, laying out a coordinated plan to hijack at least 4 commercial aircraft simultaniously and carry out the 9/11 attacks. Difficult and far fetched, but doable with the right contacts and enouhg time and money. Now imagine organizing the operation described in Loose Change, demolition experts, explosives smuggled into the WTC and planted, hundreds of airline passengers who were supposed to be on these flights, faked cell phone calls, remote control airliners, an unidentified missile, convincing every CIA, NSA, FBI, armed forcse presonnel and any other unnamed/unknown government agency operative to keep their mouths shut when they realized they have helped to murder 3000 innocent people. Anything that large would have sprung leaks as the people involved realized what they had been involved in and confessed to anyone who would listen before they blew their brains out. The number of people needed to be in the know to pull this off is way to large to keep it a secret.

I don't think it would really be that hard or at least not implausible.
The bad guys really did do it but they may have had help even maybe pushed into doing it. One reason I don't discount the possibility is because terrorist don't seem to be that good at doing anything.
The number of people in the know may not care about a few thousand dead people. They may care about themselves being dead or worse though and maybe most of possible people in the know are dead.
I don't need evidence to believe it is possible. I have seen no good evidence that anyone but terrorists are involved though. Actually that just makes me think it is all the more possible.

Besides it would be the best way to get a war going and that is how I would do it.
We knew about Pearl Harbor you know.

There is something I've learned about conspiracies. When an event happens, like the Kennedy assassination, or 9-11, we have a tendency not to believe that such things can be caused by random nutcases, that things like that can only happen by the will of some powerful group. It's like a balance (scale) where the weight of the tragedy must be counterweighted by some equal sized force. People don't...perhaps can't...believe that one lone nut like Lee Harvey Oswald can just get a rifle and shoot a popular president like Kennedy. A group of 19 terrorist whacko assholes, even with the backing of a multi-millionaire like Bin Laden, just CAN'T possibly do something like 9-11 all alone, because it doesn't balance. Well, I hate to break it to you folks, but s*** happens. Even random s***, done by single nutcases or small groups of nutcases.

while i certainly believe 9/11 was a tragedy, It's not terribly far-fetched to think that there may or may not be something fishy. Certainly wouldn't be the first time our government lied/withheld knowledge and/or allowed something tragic to occur to further their own goals. There is plenty of documented evidence of many atrocities committed by this government upon its own citizens that, while not dismissing an Occam's Razor persay, make it not as much of a stretch to think that there may have been at least a touch of foul play.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: There is something I've learned about conspiracies. When an event happens, like the Kennedy assassination, or 9-11, we have a tendency not to believe that such things can be caused by random nutcases, that things like that can only happen by the will of some powerful group. It's like a balance (scale) where the weight of the tragedy must be counterweighted by some equal sized force. People don't...perhaps can't...believe that one lone nut like Lee Harvey Oswald can just get a rifle and shoot a popular president like Kennedy. A group of 19 terrorist whacko assholes, even with the backing of a multi-millionaire like Bin Laden, just CAN'T possibly do something like 9-11 all alone, because it doesn't balance. Well, I hate to break it to you folks, but s*** happens. Even random s***, done by single nutcases or small groups of nutcases.

You could have used something better than Kennedy. Talk about a cover up.
Equal sized force? How about a country of 300 million to control and a world of 6 billion. That kind of control would require a significant event.
When in doubt don't question authority because then they know you know,Ya know?

Todays blind faith and cute puppy dog eyes was brought to you by the number 19 and also by the word control.

Sunny day - Sweepin’ the clouds away,
On my way to where the air is sweet.
Can you tell me how to get, how to get to Sesame Street.

Come and play, everything’s A-OK
Friendly neighbors there that’s where we meet
Can you tell me how to get
How to get to Sesame Street

Oh but that song does cheer me up. I like to sing it to myself while I pack ammo in dry seal boxes for storage.

Did I ever tell you my theories on the Children's Television workshops communist ties?

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Todays blind faith and cute puppy dog eyes was brought to you by the number 19 and also by the word control.

Uh oh. Pokey is quoting Sesame Street. This CAN'T be good.

quote Did I ever tell you my theories on the Children's Television workshops communist ties?

Ok, now you have my attention.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: You could have used something better than Kennedy.

What about Pearl Harbor?

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: Do they make some claims about the engines in the video? I only watched the first 10 minutes or so.

The description of the damage to the pentagon was compelling. It doesn't suggest that this whole thing was orchestrated and I certainly would have a hard time believing that, however the possibility of taking advantage of an opportunity to create the illusion of a provoked attack to use as a justification for future actions is a possibility. The damage just didn't appear to mimic what you would expect from a large passenger plane. The engines are pretty big and you'd think they might have penetrated the building, but vaporize?

I'm not sure how many are aware of this but part of America's involvement in Vietnam involved a faked attack staged by members of the U.S. Armed Forces as revealed on one of the vietnam documentaries I watched on either the History channel or Discovery. It's been a while and I don't remember all the details, I do remember my surprise.

It is the power of free people that brings about actions of this nature by those in power who feel war is the only way, because they know that if they can't get the country behind them they have almost no chance at the objective due to lack of support unless some form of military state is enforced. The very fact that our current president is under scrutiny for a war that apparently was unjustified according to the truth that has surfaced after the fact is reason enough to wonder. The weapons of mass distruction that we were sold on years ago were never found and aren't even mentioned anymore.

When your life or loved ones (soldiers) are involved, question your government, remember our role in this mess is as the sacrificial lamb.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 06-23-2008).]