It takes 22 pounds of corn to make 1 gallon of ethanol. How many billions of pounds of food is going up in smoke to feed the environmentist fantasy of bio fuels?
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Originally posted by Phranc:By the way corn is not the best crop for ethanol.
Agreed, the Brits are doing a much better job of it than we are. I want to say they are using rapeseed but I cannot remember exactly what crop they are using.
I'm not much of a fan of ethanol either, I would much rather use biodiesel or old cooking oil!
But it makes the libtards feel better. Not only are we literally starving the planet to make these left wing retards feel better about themselves, but we are also causing huge damage to the earth in the process. For example, clear cutting of trees for ethanol production has now become the number cause for destruction of the rain forests.
I know it seems kinda harsh, but people have always been starving. It's not like we would just give them the food if we were not wasting it on a feel good scheme.
How much food do they grow in the middle east? maybe it's time for a food cartel and put the squeeze on their camel.
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01:28 AM
fastblack Member
Posts: 3696 From: Riceville, IA Registered: Nov 2003
Look at what Mugabi did to Zimbabwe. That was the bread basket of Africa. Now its fallow.
By the way corn is not the best crop for ethanol.
Any crop that would be used for food should NOT be used for fuel. We're feeling it twice as bad because farmers are planting corn in lieu of other crops because they can get a better price for it.
i'm not even gonna get started...corn for ethanol is friggin retarded. if you want environment friendly, go hydrogen.
sugar cane, and prarie grass can also be used more efficiently to make ethanol than corn.
Don't know about making ethanol from it, but I used to live in cane country--south Louisiana. Sugar cane is not easy to grow, takes a heck of a lot of rainfall, the burning of the excess leaves contributes to pollution, requires quick access to mills, and because the sugar is in the stalk, is difficult to transport.
Uhm, not to ruin the rant party, but there is more than one type of corn. Field corn is what is used to manufacture ethanol. It's better known as feed corn. So unless you're concerned about all the starving cows and pigs around the world, your hostility is misplaced. People eat sweet corn, which isn't used for ethanol. Also, the Howstuffworks article is pretty dated, since they cite a per gallon price of about 1.40/gallon and a manufacturing cost for ethanol of 1.74/gallon, so unless it now costs closer to $3.59/gallon for ethanol, it's cheaper than gas. Plus, I don't think ethanol should be considered as an end all to the fuel problems we have in an economic sense, but rather a method of extending the availability of the resources we have that aren't renewable until a more long term solution can be developed.
People eat sweet corn, which isn't used for ethanol.
Have mixed feelings about all of it, but when you are starving, there is no difference in corn--it's edible enough in all varieties. If what you are saying is accurate tajiguy, why the big price increase in all varieties? Livestock feed has skyrocketed, which is reflected in meat prices in grocery stores. Nearly $10/ lb for choice or select grade cuts. Of more importance, is the shortage of surplus grain for export. The surplus used to be donated to underdeveloped/starving peoples--or sold at rock bottom prices. Now, there is no or less surplus, since so much of it is used for ethanol and that is the complaint.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-23-2008).]
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08:27 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Uhm, not to ruin the rant party, but there is more than one type of corn. Field corn is what is used to manufacture ethanol. It's better known as feed corn. So unless you're concerned about all the starving cows and pigs around the world, your hostility is misplaced. People eat sweet corn, which isn't used for ethanol.
How does that address the farms that have switched from sweet corn to feed corn because subsidies make feed corn more profitable? The end result is still the same - less sweet corn produced for food.
If we really want to get serious about Ethanol, we need to study how Brazil is doing it.
Originally posted by Taijiguy: Uhm, not to ruin the rant party, but there is more than one type of corn. Field corn is what is used to manufacture ethanol. It's better known as feed corn. So unless you're concerned about all the starving cows and pigs around the world, your hostility is misplaced. People eat sweet corn, which isn't used for ethanol. Also, the Howstuffworks article is pretty dated, since they cite a per gallon price of about 1.40/gallon and a manufacturing cost for ethanol of 1.74/gallon, so unless it now costs closer to $3.59/gallon for ethanol, it's cheaper than gas. Plus, I don't think ethanol should be considered as an end all to the fuel problems we have in an economic sense, but rather a method of extending the availability of the resources we have that aren't renewable until a more long term solution can be developed.
It's not so much the type of corn that I'm ranting about, but the fact that a farmer who has planted wheat for years is now tempted to or already has switched to corn because he can get more money for it. That's driving up costs across the board. And if you think that taking animal feed corn is any better than taking human feed corn, think again. Why do you think milk and meat prices are going up too? Ethanol is a net drain on the economy the way we're producing it right now. There are MUCH better methods to produce it than we're using. For example, here's a reaction mechanism that would work:
2H2O + energy (solar, for example) -> 2H2 + O2
3H2 + CO2 -> H2O + CO + 2H2 (Over a ruthenium catalyst.)
food prices are going up because of shipping costs due to high fuel prices. there is nowhere near enough ethanol production to significantly affect fool prices yet.
and, as to "The World Starves While We Burn Food" - so what. we could feed all them starving people with just the food we throw away. we didnt care last century - wtf does it matter now? we could have fed them anytime. but - why? so they can reproduce, and make another empty mouth? sorry - no. they only way I'll agree - is if we lay out a food trail, which leads to a fertile land. sorry - no lunch in a sandbox. most humans have worked out basic survival skills, which include hunting & gathering.
I'm not making any claims about the production, I'm not a chemist, although I do know a few, but that's not the point. I was merely addressing the topic of the thread which suggested that we are burning food suitable for human consumption for the manufacture of ethanol. Which just isn't true. As for farmers planting more corn, I haven't seen any stats to prove that. As far as I know, most farmers rotate their crops. The 40 acres around us are different every year. This year will probably be soy beans. If I had to guess as to the increase in the price of produce, I'd say it could be argued as far as whether it's reduced production, or that fact that diesel is hovering around 4 bucks a gallon. Don't forget that many of those big mother farm implements used to harvest run on diesel, as do the trucks that deliver that produce to your favorite grocery store. I'd say it's a safe bet that the increased fuel cost plays a role in the final cost of your produce.
Yes-of course fuel costs are a part of the grocery store price increase-both on farm and transport from packer to your and my cities. Both demand and supply influence prices as well, but what the packers pay for beef/cwt is what the rancher or feeldot operator sees-period. That hasn't gone up that much, but feed grain has. Even "deer corn", (about as cheap as feed can get) had gone up considerably Jan/Feb last year, when fuel was still quite a bit lower than it is now. I was raising hogs at the time and 100 lb sack of pellitized feed was a price shock to me. I don't know how ranchers can afford to feed thru the winter.
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10:00 AM
PFF
System Bot
AntiKev Member
Posts: 2333 From: Windsor, Ontario, Canada Registered: May 2004
Originally posted by Taijiguy: I'd say it's a safe bet that the increased fuel cost plays a role in the final cost of your produce.
You're right, but it's not the only cost driver.
Corn prices have increased over a dollar a bushel year on year 2005 to 2006 (from here), with production remaining statistically constant.
That does shoot my theory of farmers planting more corn, but it does jive with the other bit about the increase in corn increasing food prices across the board. Like I've already said, we need corn to feed the cattle so we can get milk and meat. Fuel prices are NOT the only thing affecting food prices. It's a vicious circle. Fuel prices continue to increase, so ethanol production increases (which uses more fuel to produce than it gets out, thus driving up prices more), which diverts product from agricultural uses and thus making it more expensive to rear cattle and other animals which are then processed into food. So not only are we getting squeezed by pump-price of gasoline, we're also getting hammered at the supermarket.
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10:03 AM
buddycraigg Member
Posts: 13620 From: kansas city, mo Registered: Jul 2002
Wow, "libtards," "enviro whackos," I have enough incentive in the first several posts of this thread alone to never become whatever has made a few people around here so obsessed with name calling.
[This message has been edited by timwdegner (edited 04-23-2008).]
But! We're not burning human food, and that was the original assertion. Everything is going up in price, and frankly, you also have to keep in mind that the dollar is literally not worth the cost of the paper it's printed on any more. Let's face it, ethanol production isn't really affecting the price of anything to any real degree. Economics is way too complicated to try and point at any single item ans say "that's why I'm paying more for food" or gas, or toilet paper or condoms. Ethanol is a relatively small fish in this big pond.
The current U.S. corn market is generally characterized by four factors: 1) rapidly expanding consumption due primarily to increasing quantities of corn used for ethanol production, 2) declining inventories, 3) high prices, and 4) reported intentions to increase planted acreage.
Here is the USDA production report for 2007 harvest(largest production on record-this report published by USDA Jan '08) :
Corn for grain production in 2007 is estimated at 13.1 billion bushels, down 1 percent from the November forecast but 24 percent above 2006. The average U.S. grain yield is estimated at 151.1 bushels per acre, down 1.9 bushels from the November forecast but 2.0 bushels above 2006. The 2007 yield estimate is the second highest on record, behind 2004, while production is the largest on record as producers harvested the most corn acres for grain since 1933.
The full report is lengthy and detailed--you can scrutinize it at the above link.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-23-2008).]
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10:34 AM
AntiKev Member
Posts: 2333 From: Windsor, Ontario, Canada Registered: May 2004
Originally posted by Taijiguy: But! We're not burning human food, and that was the original assertion. Everything is going up in price, and frankly, you also have to keep in mind that the dollar is literally not worth the cost of the paper it's printed on any more. Let's face it, ethanol production isn't really affecting the price of anything to any real degree. Economics is way too complicated to try and point at any single item ans say "that's why I'm paying more for food" or gas, or toilet paper or condoms. Ethanol is a relatively small fish in this big pond.
I'm not trying to say that it is the SOLE source. Fuel prices are driving up costs too. And my assertion was never that we were burning human food DIRECTLY, but indirectly we are (cattle feed). It doesn't help that the dollar has fallen to even with the Candian dollar (helps my German friends who I'm about to pick up at the airport). You're right that economics is complicated, and you're right that there isn't a single source, but Ethanol and Oil prices are both contributing.
That being said, we're actually at or near the inflation-adjusted price that gasoline and oil should be at right now (or at least we were a month ago). What that means is that oil was being held artificially low by some mechanism.
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10:43 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
That being said, we're actually at or near the inflation-adjusted price that gasoline and oil should be at right now (or at least we were a month ago). What that means is that oil was being held artificially low by some mechanism.
How do you come by that conclusion?
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11:04 AM
fastblack Member
Posts: 3696 From: Riceville, IA Registered: Nov 2003
As far as I know, most farmers rotate their crops. The 40 acres around us are different every year. This year will probably be soy beans.
i've read that this coming year farmers are going to be growing more soybeans this year than corn here in IA, not good for ethanol plants. IMHO i think that everyone got on this ethanol bandwagon way too fast. there is talk about using the entire corn plant to manufacture the fuel. this would produce more ethanol but it would also increase erosion since nothing would be left on the ground to stop it. keep it up and we won't have ground to grow corn for fuel OR food. ethanol burns cleaner than gas obviously but it is nowhere close to the remedy we need.
oh yah, corn meal can be made from feed corn and i bet you wouldn't even notice the difference in taste.
------------------ 1986 Fiero GT 1992 Chevrolet Beretta GTZ 2000 Chevrolet Blazer ZR2
" I guess I've learned that there's more to life than racing, but not much more." -Paul Menard
When did ethanol become the whipping boy for all that is wrong in the country?
"It is behind the higher food prices, so poor people can't eat." "It is the reason rain forests are being cut down." "It is just getting the 'corn barons' rich." "It is all a conspiracy."
I've read all of these comments here and in other forums and conversations.
Here is what I think about ethanol: It is a temporary - but effective - way to break our dependence on OPEC and will stop sending our money to the middle east. It is a fuel that can be regrown, unlike oil which will be gone when it is gone. There are already companies perfecting a way to make ethanol out of any organic matter, not just corn. As far as "corn barons" go, I bet they live in the US and not in Iran.
America should have been making this much of an effort to find alternative fuel after the oil embargo of the 70s. Instead they made smaller cars. I can't answer the rain forest comment, because I've never seen any reliable data as to why the rain forests are being cut down, for one reason or another. For example, why did we need to save the rainforests in the 80s? What was causing deforestation then? Is that cause still valid, or was it replaced with something else? Are the logging companies in central America saying to themselves "Well, we can't cut down these trees because of X, but now people like corn more than normal, so let's cut them down for Y."
Just my opinion.
Flamberge
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02:15 PM
Flamberge Member
Posts: 4268 From: Terra Sancta, TX Registered: Oct 2001
I came to the conclusion by looking at the facts and evidence and drawing it, just like a good scientist.
What "facts" would those be? I'm not trying to argue - I just want to know where you're coming from when you say you think oil is finally being fairly priced.
If you look at the prices over history, oil is now more expensive, adjusted for inflation, than it has ever been before. Oil has been between $20 - $30 / barrel (inflation adjusted) for most of the last 62 years. Source
Before 2008, the historic high was in 1980 and '79-'80 was the period of the Iranian Revolution that caused an unprecedented hike in oil and fuel prices. That should hardly be considered the standard of normal trading, and we're priced above that now.
Gas prices, again adjusted for inflation, have typically ranged between $1.50 and $2.50 / gal for most of the last century. You can see the price dropping after WW1, only to spike again during the Great Depression and gradually decline as the economy recovered. From WWII until the Iranian Revolution gas remained between $1.50 and $2.50. Even the Arab Oil Embargo in the early 70's didn't push the price over $2.50 in today's dollars.
And now the evidence suggests $4.00/gal is justified? Sorry, but I'm not seeing it.
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03:15 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
I'm not oppsed to ethanol as a short term solution if we can find a way to make it from bio-mass instead of actual food. But when you take corn and remove it from the food supply to make an overly expensive and inefficient fuel from it you are just pissing me off.
It takes 22 pounds of corn to make 1 gallon of ethanol. How many billions of pounds of food is going up in smoke to feed the environmentist fantasy of bio fuels?
Yup, and we still have a surplus of food. Its for mainly political reasons its wasted. I don't see a problem with 'burning' 'food'.
I recently heard or read something about us Spoiled Selfish Americans not doing our part (more like a bigger part) to help the third world and thus when I saw this post, well...
Why is that we in the U.S. are supposed to fell gulity for not helping the starving enough in the third world? The one that should really feel guilty is the Catholic church. They are the ones telling (more like demanding of their flock) the impoverished to keep having babies that they cannot feed nor ever hope to find jobs for. BTW: I was raised Catholic. The third world is mainly screwed up because they procreate like rabbits and for that we should be viewed as evil?
Same goes for the rampant aids problem in africa and elsewhere. And you can't simply blame it a lack of knownledge, they know they can't feed the kids they have now, it's not rocket science, so why have more? They also see people dying everywhere of aids and know how it's spread. They bring it upon themselves. Yes, I feel for the children. Whenever I see kids in sme third world country on the tube for one of those 'save the kids' adds etc. I want to grab the guy tring to make us feel bad about ourselfves (yes that is his goal) and asking for money, and one has to wonder how they spend it, anyway, I just ring his neck and scream "Castrate the fathers and end the cycle."
Originally posted by Taijiguy: Uhm, not to ruin the rant party, but there is more than one type of corn. Field corn is what is used to manufacture ethanol. It's better known as feed corn. So unless you're concerned about all the starving cows and pigs around the world, your hostility is misplaced. People eat sweet corn, which isn't used for ethanol.
Ummm... You've picked the wrong way to try and make whatever point that was supposed to be.
Have you seen the price of feed lately? I have. Feed prices and high energy costs are driving up the price of allot of other foods. All meat, poultry, and dairy products are going so high it's not even funny and there is no end in sight. Seen the price of Cheese? Energy, Cheese, and Flour, prices are fixing to run allot of places out of business. There's only so much you can raise the price of pizza, subs, and other restraunt food before people stop buying. Many places started charging for extra cheese awhile back.
Would be customers have already cut back because gas prices are climbing like they are on crack. Bakeries are already closing because they can't absorb or pass on the costs any more. We've talked in other threads about places cutting quality and portion size to essentially hide a price increase. There's only so much of either you can do and keep the lights on. One of the "upscale" places just folded here this week. One of the well established bakeries closed about a month ago and others are in fair trouble. Worse.. If one of the local roll makers fails, it could take a bunch of restraunts with it because the remaining ones won't be able to take up the demand and what is available will be beyond what can be passed on in prices.
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Originally posted by Formula88: If we really want to get serious about Ethanol, we need to study how Brazil is doing it.
Before praising them, not sure that you are but many do, folks need some more research beyond the PR most people see here. Brazil's methods aren't so great either. Yeah, you get more Ethanol from a ton of Cane but the way they grow etc leaves a hell of allot to be desired.
