just dragging a discussion from another thread to the front. Title says it all.

I say, of course humans are animals.
if we are not animals, then what are we? generally, I classify life into 2 piles: plants & animals.

of course, this is all perspective - you cant actually be wrong.

I can see this turning into a religous debate.

I say humans are not animals. There are 3 categorys. Plant, animal, human. Doesn't mean I don't think all people are human.

quote Originally posted by Rainman: I can see this turning into a religous debate. ......

yes, thats where it came from

Yes.
Disease & organs are transferable.

Now, ofcoarse, even a rock (uranium) can give us a disease (radioactivity), but I don't think it's a disease (radiation poisoning) until we get it.
Can a rock be diseased?
Is a rock animal or plant?
So maybe no.

The above is exploration.

meh,

I dont think its gonna affect my daily life too much either way.

was hoping we'd get some posts on unusual animal behaviors, like elephants & their family bonds - and of course, their incredible memory. dolphins & whales who seem to have conversations.

I think we're just the most intellectually evolved animal. We're mammals. That's why we do it like they do on the Discovery Channel. lol We're very close to apes and chimps on the evolutionary scale and we refer to them as animals. Take away all of the technology and "civilization" and we'll resort to picking the mites out of each other's hair and throwing fecal matter at one another.

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Whade' "The Duck Formerly Known As Wade" Duck
'87 GT Auto
'88 Ferrario
'84 Indy

[This message has been edited by whadeduck (edited 12-13-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Rainman: There are 3 categorys. Plant, animal, human.

The three general classifications in science are 'animal/vegetable/mineral', not 'plant/animal/human'.

[This message has been edited by LZeitgeist (edited 12-13-2007).]

quote Originally posted by whadeduck: I think we're just the most intellectually evolved animal. We're mammals. That's why we do it like they do on the Discovery Channel. lol We're very close to apes and chimps on the evolutionary scale and we refer to them as animals. Take away all of the technology and "civilization" and we'll resort to picking the mites out of each other's hair and throwing fecal matter at one another.

I think we really need monkeyman to chime in here and tell us if we are animals (or at least if he is LOL)

I know my ex calls my kid "monkey." He has threatened to throw fecal matter at me too, so that might be a good indication

[This message has been edited by tutnkmn (edited 12-13-2007).]

quote Originally posted by whadeduck: I think we're just the most intellectually evolved animal.

That remains to be seen.

I also question whether dolphins do calculus to pass the time.

When I said that we're the most intellectually-evolved animal, that doesn't neccessarily mean that all of us actually use said intellect. (i.e. the Darwin Awards)

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I also question whether dolphins do calculus to pass the time.

Now that's just silly. We all know that dolphins practice quantum mechanics to pass the time.
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Whade' "The Duck Formerly Known As Wade" Duck
'87 GT Auto
'88 Ferrario
'84 Indy

[This message has been edited by whadeduck (edited 12-13-2007).]

People (humans) are mammals, and like ALL mammals, we are animals. No need for religion because what we are in this course of discussion has nothing to do with where we came from. It is not a point for opinion either from where I stand. Just my .02

an·i·mal (ăn'ə-məl)
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[Middle English, from Latin, from animāle neuter of animālis, living, from anima, soul.]

noun
A multicellular organism of the kingdom Animalia, differing from plants in certain typical characteristics such as capacity for locomotion, nonphotosynthetic metabolism, pronounced response to stimuli, restricted growth, and fixed bodily structure.
An animal organism other than a human, especially a mammal.
A person who behaves in a bestial or brutish manner.
A human considered with respect to his or her physical, as opposed to spiritual, nature.
A person having a specified aptitude or set of interests: “that rarest of musical animals, an instrumentalist who is as comfortable on a podium with a stick as he is playing his instrument” (Lon Tuck)
adjective
Relating to, characteristic of, or derived from an animal or animals: animal fat.
Relating to the physical as distinct from the spiritual nature of people: animal instincts and desires.

<----animal.

My gf has said so too, in a few different ways.

horse, bunny....etc

On the serious side, I do think we are slightly more evolved animals, but still animals

[This message has been edited by Gecko (edited 12-13-2007).]

Virus.

All humans are animals. Not all animals are human. What's to debate?

John Stricker

BTW, Boonie, Plants can and do transfer diseases, the same way animals do, by contamination. Physical contact, airborne, soilborne, etc. If you consider grafting a transfer, plants can also have transferrable "organs". The earliest genetics research was done on plants.

quote Originally posted by tutnkmn: I think we really need monkeyman to chime in here and tell us if we are animals (or at least if he is LOL)

Here I are. All of us primates are animals...and humans. We feel. We think. We sling poo. (Admit it. You're all jealous of me (and have every right to be). Everybody wants to be a hairy knuckle dragger. ) What was the question again?

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Virus.

nice - Matrix callback.

does the "conscience" put us beyond the scope of animals? or is that just a little something extra? does any animal show any signs having a conscience?

.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 12-08-2008).]

quote Originally posted by LZeitgeist: The three general classifications in science are 'animal/vegetable/mineral', not 'plant/animal/human'.

That's assuming I respect science. I think scientists are one of the biggest collective load of BS we have in the world. They closely trail politicians.

Being a misanthrope and disgusted with the actions of many, many people... Yes, people are animals, and most of the time they act like it.

~ Derek

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Virus.

Ha. Parasites?

Pyrthian, just an observation. The discussion in the religious based thread was a lot more lively and interesting than here. Not criticizing anyone. Just observing. Also observing that I didn't see debate brought up in the religious based thread where you might think it would turn into a debate. It was just a (fun in my opinion) discussion. Yet here, debate has been mentioned a few times.

I had contended that animals and humans-obviously to varying degrees and including variation within species-both had intellect, will, and emotion. What I had contended set humans at a difference than animals was that humans had a conscience to know right from wrong.

Pyrthian had suggest some scenarios such as dolphins protecting animals from sharks. I fel that was still on the intellect and will level, not conscience or right from wrong.

Someone (might have been pyrthian) mentioned something that made me at least do some thinking. I have 2 dogs. They sure seem to react with ears down and tails between the legs when they have done something "wrong" compared to their training. Now, is it because they do have a conscience and know they did something wrong so respond to me that way? Or is it just their intellect looking at my body language and facial expression and knowing I am displeased, and not a right or wrong thing?

I don't know if that might stimulate any more conversation, but to me it is fun to think over and what I think pyrthian might have been looking for.

And just to reiterate, he isn't looking for a debate. No one is trying to prove a point or make anyone change someone's mind. It is just supposed to be an interesting, fun conversation with posts from some generally interesting, fun members of the forum.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: If you consider grafting a transfer, plants can also have transferrable "organs".

I never quite thought about parts of a plant as "organs", but damn it, I like the way you think!
Got me to thinkin'.......................

lol - mostly I am looking for interesting animal behaviour stories

and maybe a little depth on "conscience", being its one of the few things which seems to put us apart from animals.

being it just classification anyways - noone can actually be right or wrong.

.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 12-08-2008).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: So, if awareness of right and wrong defines human, how can a blastocyst (which has no thought ability whatsoever) or fetus (which arguably has no consciousness as we can know it) be considered "human"? It's just DNA at that point, isn't it? JazzMan

No. It is just in a different stage of human development.
A blastocyst isn't going to have intellect, will, or emotion at that stage either.
The ability for those things as well as conscience is all there.

As opposed to an individual egg or sperm. They do not of themselves have the potential to develop those things if given time.

quote Originally posted by WhadeDuck: I think we're just the most intellectually evolved animal. We're mammals. That's why we do it like they do on the Discovery Channel. lol We're very close to apes and chimps on the evolutionary scale and we refer to them as animals. Take away all of the technology and "civilization" and we'll resort to picking the mites out of each other's hair and throwing fecal matter at one another.[

Ever see a chimp make computer? A house? Or talk, for that matter? We are technically animals, but i think we are the only truly sentient ones. Not to dis your goldfish or anything But, hey, just my opinion.

When animals can think, have feelings, have a conscience, remember past events, etc. then I'll say humans are the same as animals.

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Red 1988 Pontiac Fiero 3.4L V6
Black 1985 Fiero SE

quote Originally posted by 5speedsup: When animals can think, have feelings, have a conscience, remember past events, etc. then I'll say humans are the same as animals.

Ever have a dog? I'd say a dog can think, they have feelings, a conscience, and can remember things. Think about how a dog misses you while you're gone and can tell when there's something wrong or you're not feeling well. They feel guilty and they can learn tricks. No, they're not going to sit around the camp fire and talk about it. But the function is still there. Just in a different form than humans use. I still say we're animals. Just with a highly-developed brain.

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Whade' "The Duck Formerly Known As Wade" Duck
'87 GT Auto
'88 Ferrario
'84 Indy

The only difference between animals and humans is that we humans "think" we dont act like animals... which we do despite our attempts not to. We are all inexorably connected.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: The only difference between animals and humans is that we humans "think" we dont act like animals... which we do despite our attempts not to.

Which is why I LOVE to see tie ins to the animal kingdom. And you can see it everywhere...... Look at a group of teenagers at the mall and you can quickly see which one's the alpha male.

And there is ALWAYS a pack leader.

quote Originally posted by whadeduck: ... Now that's just silly. We all know that dolphins practice quantum mechanics to pass the time.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Despite The Hitchhiker's Guide and Star Trek IV, we find little evidence in the animal kingdom that dolphins or apes are capable of many things that we humans take for granted, both good and bad. The extremes, such as literature, music, the Constitutional Republic and self sacrifice for one's friends on the good side, and war, genocide, Socialism and Madonna on the evil side are beyond the ken of cats, dogs and duckbilled platypuses.

My cat knows when she has done something wrong because she has learned a simple principle. She poops outside the box, she gets whacked on the nose. She has not been able to say "I'm sorry" to my two year old for clawing her on the hand, nor do I think that she would feel sorry in any case. There is no evidence that monkeys are any different when we first recorded contact with them until today. Nor dolphins, eagles, or ROUS's.

Unfortunately, we are conditioning our children to be animals by allowing them to be little more than rutting animals, refusing to teach them right and wrong (all relative, right?), self control (trumped by self esteem) or selflessness (obvious). After learning to do more than survive, we are de-evolving ourselves. We may yet be animals sooner than we think.

quote Originally posted by whadeduck: ...Take away all of the technology and "civilization" and we'll resort to picking the mites out of each other's hair and throwing fecal matter at one another.

Sounds like one of our staff meetings. Except that we still have the technology.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-15-2007).]

quote Originally posted by thenate93: Ever see a chimp make computer? A house? Or talk, for that matter? We are technically animals, but i think we are the only truly sentient ones. Not to dis your goldfish or anything But, hey, just my opinion.

Ever hear of Koko, the gorilla? Visit Koko here. Koko is just one example of what primates can do. It's all a matter of training. Can you build a house? I can't. Can you build a computer? I can't. But either of us could if we had the training. I'm not sure what talking has to do with being human. What about those that are mute (either due to a physical defect or mental one)? Are they any less human than those of us who can communicate verbally? I'm not picking on you but when the subject of primates comes up, I just have to chime in.

Well, we're not vegetable or mineral. So I guess we're animal. :shrug:

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: The discussion in the religious based thread was a lot more lively and interesting than here.

Linky ?

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: I have 2 dogs. They sure seem to react with ears down and tails between the legs when they have done something "wrong" compared to their training. Now, is it because they do have a conscience and know they did something wrong so respond to me that way? Or is it just their intellect looking at my body language and facial expression and knowing I am displeased, and not a right or wrong thing?

I am gonna absolutely say that they do know they did something wrong and also do have a conscious. Now, my dog yes, she will respond to my mood. She will tuck her tail when I am displeased. I have noticed something else though. She occasionally chews. Stuff that we do not want chewed. We can just merely look at the chewed item and she will go put herself in jail (her dog crate). Even five or ten days later

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: So long, and thanks for all the fish! Despite The Hitchhiker's Guide and Star Trek IV, we find little evidence in the animal kingdom that dolphins or apes are capable of many things that we humans take for granted, both good and bad. The extremes, such as literature, music, the Constitutional Republic and self sacrifice for one's friends on the good side, and war, genocide, Socialism and Madonna on the evil side are beyond the ken of cats, dogs and duckbilled platypuses. My cat knows when she has done something wrong because she has learned a simple principle. She poops outside the box, she gets whacked on the nose. She has not been able to say "I'm sorry" to my two year old for clawing her on the hand, nor do I think that she would feel sorry in any case. There is no evidence that monkeys are any different when we first recorded contact with them until today. Nor dolphins, eagles, or ROUS's. Unfortunately, we are conditioning our children to be animals by allowing them to be little more than rutting animals, refusing to teach them right and wrong (all relative, right?), self control (trumped by self esteem) or selflessness (obvious). After learning to do more than survive, we are de-evolving ourselves. We may yet be animals sooner than we think.

not entirely - they (dolphins) do sing to themselves and commincate with each other. and, many things they can do because they just dont have things like thumbs or even hands. they organize & adapt to their immediate situation, as if to be fully aware. and elephants do also. elephants are one of the few animals who will sacrifice themselves for the protection of their young. most animals (humans included) will sacrifice their young first - obviously - this is not all humans. but - you know in time of hardship - humans would let the youngest go first. elephants do the opposite - they always go for the eldest.

thats one of the funny things about humans - is different people seem to adapted aspects different animals. we have the sheeple, we have the alpha males, we have the protective dolphins, the lone wolves, the herded cattle, the old cougars - on & on.

and, to humans "just knowing" right from wrong. this is VERY debateable. it is quite obviously illegal to raise a human with no guidance. so, there are very few examples of this. but, there currently are 2 alive. and - good luck getting "right or wrong" discussion with either. because they cant talk. they apparantly lost their ability to even learn language. one of them can associate a word with an object - but thats it. apparantly their is a small window of oppourtunity to develop language.

quote Originally posted by Rainman: That's assuming I respect science. I think scientists are one of the biggest collective load of BS we have in the world. They closely trail politicians.

Not trying to flame, but I worked as a research scientist for years befoer starting my business. Science is largely misunderstood my those who are underinformed. Sciences goal is largely not to PROVE anything, rather to eliminate possibilities and narrow the potential correct answers.

I cannot understand how if humans are or are not animals is even a scientific debate. It is a FACT that people (humans) are animals. HTis has nothing currently to do with where humans came from (evolution vs. creation). We could debate how many similarities we have in common with other animals the smae way we could compare and contrast similarities between a cat and a dog; both are very different, have soem similarities and both are animals, but very different.

quote Originally posted by psychosurfer: Not trying to flame, but I worked as a research scientist for years befoer starting my business. Science is largely misunderstood my those who are underinformed. Sciences goal is largely not to PROVE anything, rather to eliminate possibilities and narrow the potential correct answers. I cannot understand how if humans are or are not animals is even a scientific debate. It is a FACT that people (humans) are animals. HTis has nothing currently to do with where humans came from (evolution vs. creation). We could debate how many similarities we have in common with other animals the smae way we could compare and contrast similarities between a cat and a dog; both are very different, have soem similarities and both are animals, but very different.

I prefer to head straight for the contrast between a dog & a fish - both being animals - but VERY different.
this is NOT a debate - it is a discussion on what makes us humans so much more than "mere" animals.
yes, "by the book" - its no question - humans are animals - but, also, by "the book" its no question, we are not.

yes, there are animal that build. but know not what they build. go and put a hole in the bottom of a birds nest. it wont fix it. the mama will lay its egg, and they will roll out & splat.

just silly things like our hair. wtf mammal has hair like us? why do we have hair, and not fur? if I was to make a rough guess - I'd say humans are the bastard mutant offspring of a chimpanzee raping a manitee - based soley on how we are built. manitee having one of the finest brains in the animal kingdom.

But did your chimpanzee know it was WRONG and did it anyway?

I would agree that the discussion isn't whether humans are animals or not according to the scientific classification system. Not much to discuss there. Is it that we have something DIFFERENT that is UNIQUE to humans and not other animals, that separates us significantly.

The dog chewing something up and putting itself in the cage. Is it because they know they did something "wrong", or is it because they knew they were in trouble every time they did that?

"Well, that seems human." Agreed. But that is because a lot of humans don't care if what they did is right or wrong, either. They just care that they got in trouble.