Lots of people have gotten new rims, myself included, I would like to know what your size combo weighs.

Why? I'm pretty much pissed off that my 17s/18s weigh so much. How much...I'll tell ya later

My car is not a drag racer, or autocrosser, its built to be a looker...but its still a little dissapointing that I got the pigs of all rim/tires.
Thanks

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Visit www.purplefiero.com for Show Dates and Fiero Decals and Stuff!

I put ASA JS1's on mine 16x7 with BF Goodridge 205/55 Radial TA’s

Total weight 42 lbs per wheel.
The original 14 inch rims and tires weighed in at 35lbs.

I never noticed it though and the car seemed to ride better.

Dave E http://www.ltlfrari.com

My Keizer aluminum racing wheels (13x9) weigh 8 1/4# and the Hoosier 20/9.5/13 R-25 slicks weigh 7 1/4# for a total combined weight of 15 1/2 pounds.

My stock 14" alloys weigh 14 1/2 pounds by themselves, and the Firestone SS10's weigh 10 1/4#, total 24 3/4. The same alloys with BFG Comp TA G-Force drag radials weigh 25 1/2 pounds (go figure).

Thanks for helping me prove my point about larger wheels (and brakes) and unsprung weight. It is unreal how much unsprung weight will hurt handling.

G

[This message has been edited by cadero2dmax (edited 04-14-2002).]

Stock GT Wheels w/ 225 15R60 weigh 35 lbs. each.

My 17 X 7.5 Antera Type 121 w/ 235 45R17s weigh 45 lbs.

There's a noticeable difference degredation of qtr. mile trap speed and e.t. w/ the aftermarket wheel/tire combo.

Farknocker

My rim/tire combination that I have now weighs 3lbs a piece more in the front and 4lbs a piece more in the rear.

It's not a substantial difference and handling has improved due to almost no sidewall flex.

If you are going to go with 17"+ rims and you still want lightweight, go with something from SSR or Kosei(sp?)they have rims in the 10-15lb range, but you will pay for them.

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1987GT *for sale*, or trade, PM me for details.

quote Originally posted by AkursedX: My rim/tire combination that I have now weighs 3lbs a piece more in the front and 4lbs a piece more in the rear. It's not a substantial difference and handling has improved due to almost no sidewall flex.

I have been racing Fiero's for about 13 years now. I have tried every size wheel and tire out there (in a race tire configuration) doing it. My experience has been:

The "skinny sidewall" does NOT improve handling. For street driving, it may feel firmer, but take it autocrossing or road racing sometime and see how it does. You will be slower, I guarantee it!!

I have had this discussion on this forum before, and to a man, the ones that have spent all that $ will defend their bigger, more expensive wheels and more costly tires.
None have gone out and shown an improvement in the real world where handling is guaged by a stopwatch on a twisty course, however.

Oh, don't forget the brakes that you gotta have to look good under those big wheels. Theres a few more pounds unsprung weight!!

When you get through looking good, you will be slower.

Wanna race?

G

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: My Keizer aluminum racing wheels (13x9) weigh 8 1/4# and the Hoosier 20/9.5/13 R-25 slicks weigh 7 1/4# for a total combined weight of 15 1/2 pounds. My stock 14" alloys weigh 14 1/2 pounds by themselves, and the Firestone SS10's weigh 10 1/4#, total 24 3/4. The same alloys with BFG Comp TA G-Force drag radials weigh 25 1/2 pounds (go figure). Thanks for helping me prove my point about larger wheels (and brakes) and unsprung weight. It is unreal how much unsprung weight will hurt handling. G [This message has been edited by cadero2dmax (edited 04-14-2002).]

You're forgetting the air. An inflated wheel/tire will weight more than the wheel and tire alone. What's the mounted weight? That's what you really need to compare.

With a taller sidewall tho, even if the foot width is a bit narrower, what he is saying is that the tire will roll a bit and the sidewall will become part of the foot. Thus adding more sq. in. to the footprint.

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: I have been racing Fiero's for about 13 years now. I have tried every size wheel and tire out there (in a race tire configuration) doing it. My experience has been: The "skinny sidewall" does NOT improve handling. For street driving, it may feel firmer, but take it autocrossing or road racing sometime and see how it does. You will be slower, I guarantee it!! I have had this discussion on this forum before, and to a man, the ones that have spent all that $ will defend their bigger, more expensive wheels and more costly tires. None have gone out and shown an improvement in the real world where handling is guaged by a stopwatch on a twisty course, however. Oh, don't forget the brakes that you gotta have to look good under those big wheels. Theres a few more pounds unsprung weight!! When you get through looking good, you will be slower. Wanna race? G

What hasnt been mentioned by you is what happens if hypothetically i have a 14" wheel and brand X tires that weigh in at say 28lbs
now i get new wheels, 17", with the SAME brand X tires but to fit the rim and keep final OD the same, and the new wheel/tire combo weighs the EXACT same...

So basically all variables are the same except the side wall height...

Are you still going tell me the 14's handle better?

[This message has been edited by Neal (edited 04-14-2002).]

I have Lebaron GTC wheels with 205/55/16's. They weigh 40Lbs and look sweet in RL (Bad picture).

Mine are 44lbs each (w/tires)

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ClassicFiero.com

quote Originally posted by Neal: Ill have to weigh my stock 14" with the snow tires when i take them off, there very light, probably around 25lbs

You are almost dead on. My stock 14" with my street tire is 24 3/4#, and with BFG G-Force drag radial 25 1/2#.

The weight of these wheels, coupled with the weight of the stock Fiero brakes (even the 88's with vented rotors) are the exact reason I use them for competition. They just plain flat out out perform the honeycomb 15's or aftermarket wheels (and aftermarket brakes) - and this combo has the lowest unsprung weight of any wheel/tire/brake combo going (even with air in them )

These are my 14x6" street wheels (they weigh 11 pounds even)

Plus 14" tires are cheaper - - and I use a bunch of tires every season. Win - Win!!!

G

[This message has been edited by cadero2dmax (edited 04-14-2002).]

Strange that the grand touring racing league's and such run 35 series tires with 18 or 19" wheels....

Often people with $$$$$ to spend on wheels & tires do not possess the same driving skill of those who spend countless hours with the cones.

Less sidewall = lower times
^

quote Originally posted by RiceCooker: Strange that the grand touring racing league's and such run 35 series tires with 18 or 19" wheels.... Less sidewall = lower times ^

Are you saying the 13 - 18 year old stock Fiero has a suspension that is comparable to those $250,000 racers you refer to?

You mentioned $$$$ to spend on wheels and tires. I make a triple digit income, so I COULD spend more on one set of wheels/tires than I spent for the entire car, but I like to (1) WIN and (2) Use common sense.

G

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: Are you saying the 13 - 18 year old stock Fiero has a suspension that is comparable to those $250,000 racers you refer to? absolutely not - that would be ridiculous. I was simply disputing your generalization that lower sidewalls will always have worse lap times... You mentioned $$$$ to spend on wheels and tires. I make a triple digit income, so I COULD spend more on one set of wheels/tires than I spent for the entire car, but I like to (1) WIN and (2) Use common sense.

how about: (3) try to impress others with a triple digit income that cannot be verified (regardless of it's irrelevance)

All i was referring to was how we've all seen dozens of cars with thousands of dollars invested and the drivers still have more acne than driving skill....

Maybe you need to spend a few more thousand dollars on a fancier stopwatch...

quote Originally posted by RiceCooker: Maybe you need to spend a few more thousand dollars on a fancier stopwatch...

With a name like "RiceCooker", I am sorta surprised you advocate and copy the big wheel/skinny sidewall craze that the ricers started a few years back, and are so much a part of their "culture". Does your Fiero have decals, too?

G

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: With a name like "RiceCooker", I am sorta surprised you advocate and copy the big wheel/skinny sidewall craze that the ricers started a few years back, and are so much a part of their "culture". Does your Fiero have decals, too? G

Ricer culture? LMAO! nope, no stickers. I have 16x7.5 TSW blades. They look great. The 225/40 pirelli's handle great. I can't give you any track numbers nor can i compare with your stated annual income.
but personal attacks?
Your statement amuses me to no end, I have no idea where your accusations come from.

I'm hesitant to engage in this intellectual battle of wits because I see you've come unarmed.

off to the trash can.....

And just to relate back to the thread (Sorry for hijacking your post Joe T) I'm curious as to how much my wheels weigh and I'm gonna check it out next weekend....

Ricecooker, you have a PM

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: I have been racing Fiero's for about 13 years now. I have tried every size wheel and tire out there (in a race tire configuration) doing it. My experience has been: The "skinny sidewall" does NOT improve handling. For street driving, it may feel firmer, but take it autocrossing or road racing sometime and see how it does. You will be slower, I guarantee it!! I have had this discussion on this forum before, and to a man, the ones that have spent all that $ will defend their bigger, more expensive wheels and more costly tires. None have gone out and shown an improvement in the real world where handling is guaged by a stopwatch on a twisty course, however. Oh, don't forget the brakes that you gotta have to look good under those big wheels. Theres a few more pounds unsprung weight!! When you get through looking good, you will be slower. Wanna race? G

Well, I know you have posted about this before. And yes I know that you use small rims, and if I autocrossed my GT, I would use small rims too.

But I don't, and I don't plan on it. If I am going to autocross, I will build a car specifically designed for such a role. But GT is my daily driver and occasional show car. It has never been to the drag strip or an auto-X course. It only gets street driving.

I merely stated that my car handles better with the 17's because they have less sidewall flex than my 15's did.

Since this thread was started by Joe Torma, who's car is not built specifically for autocross (I'm sure that stereo system adds more weight than the rims do ) I doubt he is looking for the best possible autocrossing tire. I'm sure looks also play quite a big role in his rim choice. And 17's simply look better than smaller rims.

But there are lightweight larger rims as I mentioned previously that will still cut a substantial amount of weight off each corner over a stock GT rim. And any weight you can cut off from each corner will improve handling.

And I didn't buy my rims to improve my handling. I bought them because I liked how they looked. For all I know it could be the different tires that makes my car handle better. My car isn't designed to be an autocrosser. It's designed to be a daily driver that looks good and that can handle better than most other street cars out there. And it does all of those jobs exceptionally.

And if we raced, of course you would beat me condering your drving experience, your 4.9, and your suspension and brake mods. Do I care? No.

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1987GT *for sale*, or trade, PM me for details.

Ill take it that from your lack of response that all else being equal a shorter side wall will handle better, and its just the weight issue that hurts things, right?

I can agree to disagree about size and weights of tires/wheels (and add brakes, they are part of it too). I thought that was the question Joe asked about?

I think the larger wheels make the Fiero look more "modern" (although there are those that are carrying it to the extremes). For street, the skinnier sidewall is firmer, and usually offers a wider footprint. This is what you are experiencing. And for the street, I guess that is OK.

You didn't mention brakes, but the big wheel looks pretty bad unless there is a larger rotor there. My Dodge diesel has about the same brakes on it as some are putting on their Fieros, but sometimes those bigger brakes can come in handy on the streets .

Now, for the other side of the coin. As you can see from the posts so far, the 14" Fiero wheel is not a little, but a lot lighter than most aftermarket wheels, especially the larger ones. That is up to 20 and 25 pounds, PER CORNER, not counting brakes. Now, that adversely affects handling, a lot more than the little extra gained footprint on the tire can overcome.

Besides the unsprung weight, there is an issue of what causes a tire to change direction when it goes around a corner. It takes rubber molecules working against each other to make it change directions. If there was another compound that could do it, we all would be driving with plastic, or with fiberglass. No, it takes rubber molecules to change directions.

Although sloppier feeling (not as firm)on the street, on the track that "give" in the sidewall does 2 things. It first of all generates heat, which makes the tire work even better, the rubber gummier, etc. And secondly, there are simply more of those molecules working, making the tire more compliant.

Yes, we are talking about two different issues here. But to say that a smaller sidewall tire handles better, I have to agree to disagree, once again. It handles worse on the edge, and that is really what handling is all about, isn't it?

G

Come on guys not again! Can we get back to the original topic now?

My stock formula 15-inch wheels weighed 26 lbs each. I don't remember what the tires weighed exactly but they were heavy.

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Hey George, still burning the torch I see ;P)

See lap times in sig, this was performed on just a Hot Lap day, on 225/40/18 front, 265/35/18 rear Pirelli Pzeros. (stock v6 fiero, the red car in my sig)

Haven't weighed the new combo yet, but the wheel itself is 19 and 22lbs front/rear... (good 'ol single picece ;S)

Will pop them off and weigh with the rubber tonite.

PS: are your numbers actual scale readings of inflated, mounted and balanced rooling stock, or mfgr. quotes?

Best!
Ben.

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

*looks around* Dave Gunsul, dave where are you?

haha.. we all know your a weight freak

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-KC

1988 Formula, 5spd, 3.4 75 NX
LoW Key's Red Bullet

My stock size 88 GT wheels and tires weighed in at the UPS scale at an average of about 42 pounds per corner. My new wheels and tires (17x7 215/45 and 17x8 245/40) weighed in at the UPS scale at an average of about 43 pounds per corner.

The most immediate improvement in handling was at high speeds...the new wheels and tires ride silky smooth at 100 mph in comparison to my old wheels. Even if I had brand new balanced wheels and tires in the 15" range, they wouldn't be as stable at high speeds. This is a trade-off...just like the closer rotational weight (smaller wheels) makes turning easier because of less rotational inertia, the bigger wheels give a much more stable feel outside of the parking lot.

In all honesty, I don't think anybody things a Fiero looks best with some 13x10" wheels on it, ESPECIALLY out in the general public, away from parking-lot race tracks!

I would agree, for autocrossing (short course racing in general) a smaller wheel and tire make more sense for many reasons. For bigger brakes (to allow for extended severe abuse and maximum stopping ability in our budgets) the bigger wheels are required. Yes, there are ultimate brakes that can be only 9 or 10 inches in diameter....but not that I want to see the price tag on!

Honestly George, I've seen you fight this battle so many times it amuses me. I admire your determination to stifle rumors of increased vehicle control with big wheels/little sidewalls...but that's just like taking on bumblebee mufflers and full dual 3" exhaust pipes on a stock truck...a never-ending battle.

There are advantages to either wheel setup, and with different priorities, different things should be considered. If weight alone is your worry Joe...there are two main considerations, how big your brakes are and how big your budget is! Smaller is better. Now looks...that's almost always going to go to the bigger side of the spectrum.

------------------
Bryce

I don't think I need say more, Nashco summed it up pretty darned well. For appearance sake, - go big, but for handling and competition - go small. Sorta what I have been trying to say, only I did not verbalize it as well as he did.

Ben, that was on my bathroom scale, right off my car, when I put my race rubber on. But of course, somebody on this forum will challenge my scales accuracy!

G

[This message has been edited by cadero2dmax (edited 04-16-2002).]

Tonight I went out to the garage and weighed some Fiero stuff. All of the tires are like new. Here's what I got:

15" Tire in 205/60 size = 18.5 lbs.
Stock 14" alloy rim with 215/60 tire = 36 lbs.
Stock 15" GT rim (7" wide) with 205/60 = 37 lbs.
Stock 15" GT rim (7" wide) with 215/60 = 40 lbs.
Stock Spare Rim & Tire = 28.5 lbs.
Getrag 5spd. = 90 lbs.
Steering rack with inner & outer tie rods = 14 lbs.

So, if you really want to save some weight you should get rid of the spare tire, steering rack, and the transmission! Though this wouldn't help unsprung weight, it would certainly lighten things up a bit. Of course then you have the inherent "go-ing" and turning problem.

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Long Island Fiero Enthusiasts
Dave - FIEROMAN

[This message has been edited by L.I. Fieros (edited 04-17-2002).]

So Joe...how much do your rims weigh?

I know the other wheels I planned on getting were about four pounds heavier per wheel...too much price to pay for style. I ended up liking the choice I made even more when I saw the other wheels in person; that would've been an expensive bad choice!

Bryce
88 GT

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: I don't think I need say more, Nashco summed it up pretty darned well. For appearance sake, - go big, but for handling and competition - go small. Sorta what I have been trying to say, only I did not verbalize it as well as he did. Ben, that was on my bathroom scale, right off my car, when I put my race rubber on. But of course, somebody on this forum will challenge my scales accuracy! G [This message has been edited by cadero2dmax (edited 04-16-2002).]

For handling and competition go small?

I will be devils advocate. What about the 13Lbs Kinesis Wheel I have sitting right here that is a 17x10" wheel??? (for a 911)

JM

I'm just killing some time and bringing a little more thought to the table...not on any sides:

http://www.bmwworld.com/pics/racing/lemans_3_4.jpg

What kind of performance did you say you were looking for?

I don't know that "for handling and competition - go small" is necessarily true across the board (look at trans-am/LeMans racing) but then again, there are extremes on both sides...just like 20" is too big, 6" is too small.

*sigh*..ok, that killed some time.

Bryce
88 GT

P.S. Sorry if I overloaded the pics for the dial-up users! I tried being small about it...

[This message has been edited by Nashco (edited 04-17-2002).]

Hey George; "Calibration not required"

(no less than three of my clients have to put these labels on everything from their wall clocks, to their staplers...)

Jonothan-

Sheesh, their 17x10 is that light?

Daaaamn.... (Contact patch does make a huge difference for our cars, especially if you're making more power than stock. Also, 17" can fit OVER the strut knuckle, allowing another ~2" or so of tire and wheel.)

Jonothan, got pics of that wheel?

Hrm, more thoughts:

18x10 front, 18x13 rear.

Same engine <sorta> as my silver car (sans turbo Hey, look, rear multiple links, that looks familiar too...

Best!
Ben.

quote Originally posted by Slammed Fiero: For handling and competition go small? I will be devils advocate. What about the 13Lbs Kinesis Wheel I have sitting right here that is a 17x10" wheel??? (for a 911) JM

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

[This message has been edited by artherd (edited 04-17-2002).]

Ah, c'mon JM - - what about a 6 pound 13x10 composite racing wheel? (I may start carrying composites in addition to the Keizers, we are in discussion with the manufacturers now).

Do any of you really think you can compare your Fiero suspensions/steering/etc (you know, the ones you have with the large wheels and skinny sidewall tires in order to make them fit) with those of the Champ cars, Bigfoots, Top Fuel dragster, or shifter carts - - any of the Professional racers pictured above?

Or the late model Corvettes, Vipers, BMW's of the world, for that matter?

One thing IS painfully obvious in all those photos above, ain't aone of them with skinny sidewalls!! Thank you for proving my point for me!!

C'mon, Ben. I gave you more credit than that - - comparing your '88 suspension to a tube framed Formula car just because they both have lateral links? Maybe you should be racing in their series, too???? BTW, take a look at the sidewall of the slick in that same photo - - thanks again for proving my point!

G

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: One thing IS painfully obvious in all those photos above, ain't aone of them with skinny sidewalls!! Thank you for proving my point for me!! ...BTW, take a look at the sidewall of the slick in that same photo - - thanks again for proving my point! G

Wait a second here... the picture on that car has a big rim and relativly short sidewall.

It may not be a rubberband tire, but Im certainly not arguing rubberband tire, im talking about more like a 235/45/17 tire.

One more point, a year or so back in GRM they had a honda civic and tested out upsized wheels and tires on the car.

They did this by running the car through the road coarse, same day 3 different drivers. upsized wheels and tires same brand/model tires (except for the stock ones) If memory serves me right they went 14"(stock rubber) 15" 16" 17"...

Now guess which rim/tire combo pulled the best track times??? You guessed it the 17" did on all accounts.

I really wish i could find the article and tell you the issue, because im sure you would like to read through it.

[This message has been edited by Neal (edited 04-17-2002).]

Viper? No, I don't think I can compare my suspension to his... I think mine is much better. Here's why: http://www.cartsys.com/fiero/searspoint/03-30-2002/viper-porsche-silly.mpg

The 88 Fiero's suspension is actually very very good WRT to Geometry. I have no expierence with the 84-87s, but of course their rear is a joke. Front seems pretty similar to the 88, just with somewhat less desireable disparity of shock and spring, and too much neg camber on compression. (acording to what I've seen, never pushed one in the real world.)

George, if that pic of the Caddy is what you're talking about, then we're in full agreement Didn't we already determine that your Q4 and my car run about the same size sidewall?

Best!
Ben.

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: Or the late model Corvettes, Vipers, BMW's of the world, for that matter? One thing IS painfully obvious in all those photos above, ain't aone of them with skinny sidewalls!! Thank you for proving my point for me!! C'mon, Ben. I gave you more credit than that - - comparing your '88 suspension to a tube framed Formula car just because they both have lateral links? Maybe you should be racing in their series, too???? BTW, take a look at the sidewall of the slick in that same photo - - thanks again for proving my point! G

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: Ah, c'mon JM - - what about a 6 pound 13x10 composite racing wheel? (I may start carrying composites in addition to the Keizers, we are in discussion with the manufacturers now). Do any of you really think you can compare your Fiero suspensions/steering/etc (you know, the ones you have with the large wheels and skinny sidewall tires in order to make them fit) with those of the Champ cars, Bigfoots, Top Fuel dragster, or shifter carts - - any of the Professional racers pictured above? Or the late model Corvettes, Vipers, BMW's of the world, for that matter? One thing IS painfully obvious in all those photos above, ain't aone of them with skinny sidewalls!! Thank you for proving my point for me!! C'mon, Ben. I gave you more credit than that - - comparing your '88 suspension to a tube framed Formula car just because they both have lateral links? Maybe you should be racing in their series, too???? BTW, take a look at the sidewall of the slick in that same photo - - thanks again for proving my point! G

I was just playing devils advocate. The wheel is from kinesis , they don't have pics on their website though . Plus it retails for over a grand.

I wouldn't try to compare my cars suspension to anything in the realm of "real" racecar , but it works pretty good , probably better than the majority of the fiero's on the road.

I agree about the wheels. When I get around to building a corvair ,i have a set of 13x8 Monocque aluminum wheels in my basement that are 9lbs each, I hope to have a 2200lbs street driven vair. You can tell the differnce with a lighter wheel for sure. My TR motorsports wheels that i have now were bought for looks. I would like to get a set of competition wheels for the car when I get it sorted out (spend money on other things) Do I think that the 17's work better than my 15's did? yeppers , could be a result of my setup , driving style , or just the fact that I was using better tires (from 225/50/15 Comp Ta R1's , to a set of PZero C's 225/45/17 front / 255/40/17 rear. Better balance with the bigger tire on the rear.

No matter what , lighter is always better , size is a whole other factor though. I can't run 15's or smaller

JM

Jonathan, trust me your street tires ARE the difference. But if you put the same tire on, say for example (because this can really be done) - a Kumho Victoracer in the 18" size and the Kumho Victoracer in the 15" size, I will bet the reverse is true.

I will wager a cuppa coffe the same driver in the same car will get a better time in the 15" with the larger sidewall.

Now, before somebody pipes in with proof that I am wrong because of all the sedan series running the thin sidewall, I will qualify that by saying IN A FIERO.

G