I am pretty set on swapping a naturally aspirated 3800 (l36) into my fiero this summer, and I have the isuzu transmission right now so I am going to get a different transmission as well.... But I want to abuse the transmission. Not constantly, but I am only 19 so I want to do hard launches and drive the car hard and not have to worry about the transmission blowing up on me, or autox the car where I would be driving it hard. I dont know, I have no first hand experience with this and I have a duke right now so I can abuse it as much as I like and its fine... so I am open to suggestions. And I want a tranny that will will bolt to the 3800

Find a wrecked car with the motor you want and buy it cheap. Then you'll have everything you need except swap mounts.

Don't think the 3800 came with a manual transmission ever... Does the 4 speed Muncie handle the power? I have heard about people getting their gears treated cryogenically? I just want to still want to be able to dump the clutch if I am in the mood, and drive the car aggressively.

Is your heart set on a manual trans? If not, the 4t65hd would be your best bet for taking abuse... Also, keep in mind, the axles may present a problem if its continuous abuse your looking to put it through.

F23 - Look for a thread on here talking about this gearbox.

Yea I am insistent on a manual transmission I really do not like driving cars with an automatic transmission. I will have the naturally aspirated engine so I should put out only 205 hp so I am not running crazy numbers. Has anyone had success with the muncie and cryogenically strengthening the gears?

And I will look up the F23, does it bolt to the fiero engine/3800?

quote Originally posted by zkhennings: OK I guess it does not, it could be an option though, any thoughts on the muncie?

The 5spd muncie is considered the strongest Fiero manual trans; ie. little to no mods to install one. It should handle 205hp with ease, but don't know how many abusive romps it will take. It will hadle spirited driving no problem. But once you start to dump the clutch often and/or down-shift break, ya never know... These trans are 20+ years old...

The 6spd G6 is also an option and is probable the strongest trans your gonna get to bolt upto a 3800. But the swap is not cheap or easy...

I have seen many times throughout the forum people talking about getting the gears in the muncie treated so they are stronger, any opinions on this? And I am a college student and poor so I will not be going with the f40 transmission

There are 2 - 5 spd Fiero transmissions - the Isuzu - found behind the Duke and the Getrag - found behind the V6. The F23 is a Getrag too I believe and will bolt up and I believe you need some kind of kit to use this FWD trans in the Fiero - from what I have read, it's pretty tough. The Fiero 4 speed is a Muncie and seems to be pretty tough as well - I am running one in my SBC Fiero - I have yet to hammer on it much as I just recently rebuilt the car. With 205 HP, I do not believe you will have any axle issues and I think the stock Getrag 5 spd would take the abuse too. There are folks out there putting double your 205hp through stock axles with no issues. Your weak link will be the clutch. I suggest you spend the money and buy a quality clutch setup. Of course condition of the trans / axles you use will make a difference on "life" of the components too! Good luck and drive safely!

Thank you, I was planning on getting a pretty nice clutch but just did not know what to do about the tranny. Is the muncie significantly stronger than the getrag? I have a 5 speed now so It would be easy to swap to a getrag because of the shifter and cables, but the muncie is supposed to be stronger?

If you don't have money for an F40 then you don't have money to throw around swapping and strengthening various transmissions.

My opinion...

• Run what you have. If that is an Isuzu then so be it. You'll get great gas mileage while it lasts and it won't cost you anything to keep it.
  
• While you are running the Isuzu keep your eye out for a deal on a stronger trans ie. V6 4-speed (M17), Getrag (282, 284, F23) etc. (Don't forget all the misc stuff like mounts, shifter, cables etc to go with it)
  
• if/when the Isuzu gives up then worry about swapping the transmission.
  
• If a stronger transmission can't handle the power then worry about what to do next.
  

This way you will only spend your precious money on what is needed to support your power levels and driving styles.

The reason I bother to write this is because I have seen numerous occasions where people spend a bunch of time, money and effort trying to build components and then don't get the use out of them for various reasons like...

• Other component failure (ie. engine failure)
  
• Failure to complete the project (ie. money, time, knowledge)
  
• Induced failure (ie. mistake in rebuilding trans leads to failure)
  

That is good advice. And I am not devoid of money, I will just be spending most of it on the swapping of the engine... But when the time comes, is the muncie a stronger transmission than the getrag by a significant margin?

quote Originally posted by zkhennings: That is good advice. And I am not devoid of money, I will just be spending most of it on the swapping of the engine... But when the time comes, is the muncie a stronger transmission than the getrag by a significant margin?

No, there is not significant evidence to say that one is stronger than the other as long as you stay away from the 84 4-speeds which are significantly weaker than the later V6 4-speed versions. Some like the more even gear spacing of the 4-speed and others like the higher final drive of the 5-speed but I have never seen any evidence leading to the conclusion that one is stronger than the other.

Don't shock load the trans and you should be OK. Don't just DROP the clutch. I learned the hard way. Engage the trans THEN let it rip. With some fancy footwork you should make a getrag 5 speed or 4speed muncie last.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.53@126.7

Should It hold up fine kicking the clutch in a drift/powerslide? Me and my friend like drifting in his e30 318i beamer, and when I feel myself losing the drift I kick the clutch. I dunno if I would drift my fiero, but I am sure I will try and just wanted to know if anyone thought that would be unable to handle the sharp engage

The fiero is a poor platform to drift with. With it being mid engine when the back end start to come around it happens too fast because of the rear bias. The n/a 3800 probably doesn't have enough power to overcome the superb traction of the fiero.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.53@126.7

ok I will probably still try it though. And yea I have spun in the fiero a few times before on wet days. I can power out of most now before I start to spin

I have a getrag 5 speed between my 3.4 turbo. I am putting around 230hp to the ground and 260 ft lbs of torque. I am not exactly nice to it but I do not abuse it too bad. Just drive her hard like I built her for. So far so good. I have had no tranny issues and this is a fairly high mileage unit with stiff first gear and a rattle while in neutral.

My car does have amazing traction and on dry pavement with my 245 40R17 Direzza star specs I cannot get the back out easily at all. But when it does go... watch out.

The getrag should hold up ok to a NA3800. I have had no troubles. I do not drag race the car though, not what I built it for.

The L36 was used with a manual trans, but it was the '96-'02 Camaro / Firebird. So that's your source for the flywheel and the engine computer.
The rest of your L36 should be from any '96-'02 FWD app.
The Getrag 282 should meet your needs, and be minimum investment.

The 282 is the one that came with the v6 5sp fieros right? And which transmission would have a better gearbox for an autocross application, the muncie or getrag? I have heard the getrag's first gear is rediculously short, but never driven one so I dont know. I have only driven my isuzu fiero and an 84 muncie fiero, and the gearbox felt more spread out on the muncie

The 84 Muncie gears are spread out better but the 84 tranny case is not designed as well as the 85+ cases which are reinforced better. You can tell by just looking at them. Other than the 84, all the other fiero trannys should hold up if you are not going crazy on it like dumping the clutch. A step up from this would be a FWD Getrag 5 spd from cars like an early 90s model Beretta with a V6. ( I believe this is also listed as a 282 ) Another one as listed above would be the F23. You can cryo treat your tranny and make it last a bit longer but if you intend on beating on it that bad, you really need to go with an auto. Even an Iron Duke will tear up a tranny if you are dumping the clutch, it will just take a little longer.

Best bet.... use what you have and look for a FWD 282 or an F23 and dont sidestep the clutch.

Steve

is there really no transmission that will work with our cars that can take the abuse? I want to be able to do hard launches and not worry about it

Where ya located?

I am located in MA... what is involved in the F23 swap?

from the sounds of it. the abuse you want to do to any manual transaxle will evently blow up. you just dont know when.

if you dump the clutch and have really good sticky tires. the likely hood of the tranny breaking increases.

people are always saying the gearing on the 4 speeds are better geared then the 5 speed. but the 5 speed does have that extra gear for highway. sometimes i wish i had a 5 speed when crusing on the highway. but for around town. my 4 speed works wonders. i rarely put it in 4th crusing around town. only the odd time when the speed limit goes up alittle.

you only really have 3 choices. the 4 speed from the V6. the Getrag 5 speed. or the F40 6 speed.
from what i been reading the 6 speed is the strongest? but i could be wrong on that. but its not a cheap swap. sure the transmission is cheap to buy. but putting it in your fiero is the expensive part.

Isuzu: Forget it, it sucks. Especially first gear not being synchronized. Or if so, mine were way too worn. And second gear is failure-prone. Anyway, guys have successfully used 282s behind engines making more than twice what a stock L36 can. Fiero / Beretta 282: 3.500 / 2.050 / 1.375 / 0.943 / 0.721 with a 3.611 FDR. F23 from '00-'02 2.2L Cavalier / Sunfire is 3.58 / 2.02 / 1.35 / 0.98 / 0.69 with a 3.84:1 FDR. '06 G6 GT F40-MT2 is 3.769 / 2.040 / 1.321 / 0.954 / 0.755 / 0.623 with a 3.546:1 FDR.
If you're dead-set on deliberate abuse, for which there is NO good reason, then you need the NSX 5-speed.

I am not going to dump the clutch often but I dont want to be afraid to because I do want to drive the car hard and not have to worry about it. But is the F23 a hard swap?

Here ya go !

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/103406.html

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/083654.html

quote Originally posted by nosrac:

LOL.... even the camera man was suprised it held together
No one is saying a manual will not take the power and "some" abuse; but constant clutch side-steps will not last...

BTW, what tires were on that Fiero in the video? Those puppies broke loose like they were on sand...

ok so basically from the threads

I should go with an f23 gear box from a 2000-2002 cavalier with the 2200 engine (not ecotec) so that the bellhousing pattern is correct so it bolts to my engine
Then I would need to adapt the clutch line for the quick release slave on the f23
New mounting brackets
Do I need rodneys FWD conversion kit?
and what clutch would I want to buy size wise... and I can reuse my isuzu cables

Getrag shift cables work best with the F23.

can you use the stock axles with the f23? there is not a huge amount of documentation on it, but all know is that I would rather not do the swap if I had to have an automatic transaxle, so as long as it isnt terribly expensive, I would do anything to get a manual transmission to work with the swap.

That is documented in the above links.

quote Originally posted by zkhennings: can you use the stock axles with the f23? there is not a huge amount of documentation on it,.

Yes, another great reason to go F23 and NOT F40. It is in the above links.

Yea I had found it after I posted that question and felt kinda dumb... I also found out you just use the same clutch as you would in the fiero's getrag, but when you get the camaro's flywheel machined down to .840 inches, do you get the material being removed taken off of the fricton surface?

quote Originally posted by zkhennings: do you get the material being removed taken off of the fricton surface?

Yes...
Remember, your taking the total thickness of the flywheel; Crank face to friction face... If you machined down the crank face, you would seriously compromise its integrity...

[This message has been edited by ALJR (edited 04-07-2011).]

I was just double checking, it didnt make sense any other way, but I have no experience except for what I have learned from other threads so I wanted to make sure

quote Originally posted by zkhennings: I was just double checking, it didnt make sense any other way, but I have no experience except for what I have learned from other threads so I wanted to make sure

Better to ask