Hi everyone! This is my first post. I originally post ed this on fullsizechevy.com. I bunch of freinds mentioned this site and said I should post it here.

This is my third Fiero. A 1988 T-top coup. The clutch was fried and the engine wasn't much better. In fack I have a lot of miss givings on all domestic small displacement engines made from 2007 on down. I find it was in 2007 that a lot of companies started building better small engines IMHO.

Anyway, Here is my scratch built V8 install.

I bought this from my brother back when he owned a car delership in Baton Rouge.



This is the car I've been hunting for a 1988 Pontiac Fiero T-top to cram in a V8.

At the time I worked for John Deere Thibodaux in the R&D department for the 3510 Sugar Cane Harvester. I had free access to all the CNC equipment at the plant well at least if it was kept under the radar.



The first thing I needed to do in a V8 install was a hell of a lot of research on the car's design.






I looked into V8 Archie first. My brother baught one of his kits and it performed pretty well.
I just didn't like the overall design. I began to develope a design of my own.




With the design complete I built a prototype of the adapter plate.



I drilled the holes with a drill press so the holes were not perfect but there was enough tolerance for it to fit.

The second adapter plate was CNC cut and machined.



I found a database of ring gears on line that I used for my flywheel design.
I needed a ring gear that was less than Ø11 1/8" O.D. but had a gear pitch that matched the dodge starter I planned to use. The GM starters mount under the engine. I needed one that mounted to the tranny like Dodge and Ford.

V8 Archie bolted a standard GM mini starter to a block that bolted to the adapter plate. My brother had a hard time getting the starter adjusted because of the loose fitting bolts. His flywheel was very thick and heavy, and his adapter plate was an inch thick.

My adapter plate is .620 inches thick and my flywheel weighs 16lbs.






With all the parts made, now I just need an engine. So I built this.

It's the same engine that curently rests in my truck, except it was a lot milder then.
It had a Q-jet and edelbrock intake, stock crank and rods, ZZ4 heads and sealed power moly faced ductil iron rings.

Now the fun begines..... getting it in.







As you can see. it's a VERY tight fit.

This install under went a lot of changes.




I had to solid mount the engine cause I had no room to let it move around.



I had to machine the block so I could add the sixth bolt that goes through the engine to the tanny.



Alternator clearance! There aint much..



Waterpump clearance isn't any better.



I ditched the Q-jet for a holley DP



I had to built a Thermostat housing a cast iron water neck and the original Fiero housing.

I had to relocate the battery and oil filter.



The first time at the track she ran 12.23 in the 1/4 mile. It launched a very hard 1.6 sec 60ft on Good Year street radials P195/60-R14.



I guess like the saying goes a hot rod is never finished. I wanted ram air. On a Fiero there is only one way to get it, over the top.



Now there's a problem. How do I open the hood with the scoop molded into the rear deck? You make a custom multi link hinge to raise the deck as it tilts forward.
I designed the hinge using Solid Works and made them out of aluminum and carbon fiber. They are thin, light, and very strong.






I modified the hood so air from the radiator travels through the hood instead of pushed under the car.




This is as far as I got before a total tear down to build a race car.



I'm installing a 12 point roll cage and converting it to an automatic. It'll have a new interior and a built 383. New wheels and tires and I custom pain job.

This project has been on hold for three years. Mostly because of Huricane Gustav. I just finished the storm damage to my home and I'm working to finish my truck. I'll be able to use what I learned in building and tuning my truck to get this up and running.

------------------
Paul R. Mechancal Designer.
Projects: 1988 Pontiac Fiero. Scratch built V8 instal kit, lots of custom mods. ET 12 flat top speed so far 185.
1988 Chevy Stepside Reg cab. Scratch built Serpentine accessory drive. Offenhauser Cross ram Dual TBI.

[This message has been edited by Cajun Road Warrior (edited 09-21-2010).]

Welcome to the Forum!

That is an amazing first post. You have a great build going on there.

Welcome to the forum I think your going to be everyones new hero!
So do u plan on selling a kit for your engine swap id bet u make a killing!

thanks, I've always been a hands on guy. I just love creating stuff and beating my own path. I can't believe i haven't been on here years ago

quote Originally posted by Cajun Road Warrior: Wow! thanks for the compliment. I don't know about hero but I hope to find freinds here. I didn't think there would be enough demand for one, but I guess if yall really want a copy of what I built I can contact some local shops and see what I can do. I still have all the CAD files of everything I designed. I still haven't developed an automatice version yet, but it is in the works. I'm converting my car to an automatic cause I've trashed too many manual trannys. I forgot I still need to address the counter wieght issue. The one I designed for my flywheel is a little on the heavy side. I payed Hotard's engine shop to balance my flywheel to match the factory GM flywheel. He told me mine was perfect. I didn't think so but I installed it anyway. Ant as I figured the engine vibrated. It wasn't bad but I know I could have done better. I hope my flex plate design will be better.

That's some pretty impressive craftsmanship, especially when you consider the CAD drawings that accompanied the planning.
How many transmissions have you gone through? and is the vibration definately from improper flywheel balance, I figured since you have an 88 which has a solid mount cradle that you would naturally encounter a little vibration with the engine solid mounted. I'd be pretty upset if the machine shop said the flywheel was balanced and it turned out not to be.

Good job on the R&D and the 3D modeling and I like the creativeness of your ring gear/starter combo.

The solid engine/tranny mounts and water pump/accessory packaging isn't significantly different than the currently available stuff and your setup requires some significant surgury to the passenger frame rail, so I would suggest some more refinement in those areas if you really want to pursue marketing a SBC kit.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-21-2010).]

It was definately the flywheel. I decided to pull the engine and put in my truck. It's as smooth as can be now. I smashed a couple of Isuzu trannys and one Getrag. and four clutches. I had blown three center force clutches and one Ram custom made clutch. I kept ripping gears on the Isuzu trannys. I crushed the spring hubs on all the clutches when I switched to the Getrag, then the getrag finally let go. I welding in a roll cage right now. And I'm converting it to an automatic since autos are a dime a dozen now.

This is my truck build http://www.fullsizechevy.co...ittle-dual-TBI-build
I did some fabrication there too.

You're a better man than I am for building this. But I'm curious why you would notch the frame like that (it doesn't look to me like you went back to re-enforce it)?

Rather than go with a mechanical pump like that, you probably could have just gone with a low-profile electric waterpump. There's dozens of them on eBay for under $100 bucks and it would have performed just as well, and you wouldn't have had to notch the frame.


I used a Holley 650 Double Pumper on one of my cars, but ultimately I'm a huge fan of a properly modified and tuned Rochester QuadraJet.

I LOVE a well tuned Q-jet...

Looks good though, I bet it's a blast to drive.

------------------
Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: Good job on the R&D and the 3D modeling and I like the creativeness of your ring gear/starter combo. The solid engine/tranny mounts and water pump/accessory packaging isn't significantly different than the currently available stuff and your setup requires some significant surgury to the passenger frame rail, so I would suggest some more refinement in those areas if you really want to pursue marketing a SBC kit.

I trying to avoid buying new axles and special pulleys. The pulleys I bought at Pep Boys, and the axles are stock. I may look into a different axle setup so the engine can slide to the left far enough so I don't have to modify the frame. I welded a High strengh steel flat bar to the outside of the frame, so the frame is a stong as it was from the factory. I've been thinking of the waterpump issue. There are many ways to go about it; use an electric pump, remote pump with water manifold or stock shorty pump with V belt. Do you save any space with the LT1 balancer pulley? If so then I can pull the A/C compressor and alternator further back.

I basically built this kit cause I couldn't afford to buy one, and I love a good design challenge.

quote Originally posted by Cajun Road Warrior: I trying to avoid buying new axles and special pulleys. The pulleys I bought at Pep Boys, and the axles are stock. I may look into a different axle setup so the engine can slide to the left far enough so I don't have to modify the frame. I welded a High strengh steel flat bar to the outside of the frame, so the frame is a stong as it was from the factory. I've been thinking of the waterpump issue. There are many ways to go about it; use an electric pump, remote pump with water manifold or stock shorty pump with V belt. Do you save any space with the LT1 balancer pulley? If so then I can pull the A/C compressor and alternator further back. I basically built this kit cause I couldn't afford to buy one, and I love a good design challenge.

With the currently available manual transmissions and their corresponding minimum required adapter plate thickness, if you slide the engine over far enough to clear your conventional water pump belt drive... the distance needed will require a frame notch on the passenger side (moving the tranny much more than 1" will have you notching the driver side frame rail). You can package the whole setup within the frame rails with the right selection of parts and it all boils down the adapter plate thickness, harmonic balancer/pulley and water pump setup.

Some information you might find helpful:
96 PS Corsica axle from a 4T60 car is plug & play for the DS Manual tranny axle and is about 1 1/4" shorter in length (would require running an intermediate shaft and longer passenger axle on the passenger side or a custom longer axle).

The following harmonic balancers will slide right on the end of the SBC crank, have the same seal surface and all incorporate groove/grooves to act as a pulley as well:
Some 194/235/250 inline 6's came with a single V-belt groove (but more commonly with the dual... need to use the single).
3.1/3100/3400 FWD engines came with a 6 groove serpentine harmonic balancer (I modify these for use).
89+ FWD 2.5's also come with a 6 groove serpentine harmonic balancer that appears to be narrower and might not need to be modified as must as the 3100 balancers (have not confirmed this yet, but it is worth looking into).

Remote mounting electric or mechanical pumps will get you past any passenger frame rail interferance once you pull the rest of the belt drive up against the block.

Here are a couple of my threads you might find interesting:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/099565.html
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/087174.html

This is a big help. Thanks a lot. I've been wondering if other engines had SBC compatable balancers. Ths opens up a lot of new possibilities. I noticed on other GM front drive V8 combinations GM designed a special pump casting. It's VERY compact.

You willing to share the CAD files of the engine and accessories? Don't want you to give up any design information on the plate, but the SBC model is awesome! Did you build that?

I have an Archie kit copy (BAAAD copy) in my car that I completely re-engineered. I modeled it up in UG, but it ended up looking a lot like the original. I like yours a lot. The use of a Parts store starter is reason enough to change the design.

Anyway, thanks for sharing. You did a great job. As a design engineer, I must say I like your approach.

------------------
1986 SE 350 V8

quote Originally posted by tesmith66: You willing to share the CAD files of the engine and accessories? Don't want you to give up any design information on the plate, but the SBC model is awesome! Did you build that? I have an Archie kit copy (BAAAD copy) in my car that I completely re-engineered. I modeled it up in UG, but it ended up looking a lot like the original. I like yours a lot. The use of a Parts store starter is reason enough to change the design. Anyway, thanks for sharing. You did a great job. As a design engineer, I must say I like your approach.

I freind of mine had an old GMPP book that had a lot of literature on the small block that included all the nominal demensions. I used that and another small block to VERY carefully measure every detail of the block and heads. I also modelled the crank and pistons just incase I may want to make a custom pan. I also modelled the Nipondenso and GM rotary A/C compressors, Short and long water pumps, old and late model alternators, and saganaw power stering pump. I may model the whole automatic and manual transmissions as well soon. Right now I only modelled the bell housing, clutch, and pressure plate. I have houndreds of hours invested in these models and they are extreemly accurate. If it fits the model it fits the engine or accessories.

I'll have to think about it whether I want to just hand over my work. These are solid models, prt, dwg, and Acis files not the junk polymesh type. So engineering analysis can be done with them. The engine block includes water jackets. Since the head design varies so much I was reluctant to add too much detail to them.

I built most of them using Cad Key solids when I worked in the R&D department of a John Deere subsidary once named Cameco Industries.
It's now John Deere Thibodaux. I left the company in 2003 when John Deere down sized the company after the take over.
The rest of the parts where made with Auto CAD. I would prefer Solid Works but I don't have access to that program.

[This message has been edited by Cajun Road Warrior (edited 09-21-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Cajun Road Warrior: I freind of mine had an old GMPP book that had a lot of literature on the small block that included all the nominal demensions. I used that and another small block to VERY carefully measure every detail of the block and heads. I also modelled the crank and pistons just incase I may want to make a custom pan. I also modelled the Nipondenso and GM rotary A/C compressors, Short and long water pumps, old and late model alternators, and saganaw power stering pump. I may model the whole automatic and manual transmissions as well soon. Right now I only modelled the bell housing, clutch, and pressure plate. I have houndreds of hours invested in these models and they are extreemly accurate. If it fits the model it fits the engine or accessories. I'll have to think about it whether I want to just hand over my work. These are solid models, prt, dwg, and Acis files not the junk polymesh type. So engineering analysis can be done with them. The engine block includes water jackets. Since the head design varies so much I was reluctant to add too much detail to them. I built most of them using Cad Key solids when I worked in the R&D department of a John Deere subsidary once named Cameco Industries. It's now John Deere Thibodaux. I left the company in 2003 when John Deere down sized the company after the take over. The rest of the parts where made with Auto CAD. I would prefer Solid Works but I don't have access to that program.

You did your homework. I understand your reluctance to hand over your hard work and I respect that. I also admire your talent. Good CAD drivers (I should say 3D modelers) are hard to come by. Your work is first rate.

This is my other project.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2arLlO5ehE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6kT3tn0o8s

[This message has been edited by Cajun Road Warrior (edited 09-21-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Cajun Road Warrior: Thanks, there is a big difference from what I do and CAD driving or drafting. Yet I can't seem to get my employers to understand that. I started to go to college for mechanical engineering but when I lost my job working for Deere I could no longer afford to go. I live in a dead town. There is nothing here for me and I feel like im stuck here wasting away. The pay really sucks and I get no respect. Yet my boss throws imposible deadlines and expects miracles. I've worked many 20 hour days getting presentations out in the nick of time. The last one was a portable cement bulk plant I had to create based on a hand drawn sketch on a napkin. After running the numbers all the data they supplied to me was all wrong. They abviously don't know math. The plant consisted of six 2400cf silos, a 1200cf waste tank, two 400cf blend tanks, and a 400cf weigh batch. Oh and I had exactly 24 hours to design, render, detail, and convert to PDF. He wanted all piping, foundations, compressors, and a detailed portable office that includes all equipment. Well I gave him his miracle just in time. My next project; designing an ISO packaged acid plant. It least I have a week to get that out. I started this job in 2006 at a salery of $45000 with a promotion to project manager within a year. I got passed over for that promotion thanks to nepotism. I've been requesting a raise for years and all I get are excusses for why I don't deserve one. They finnally gave me my first raise in May of this year only to take that away, drop me to hourly, and cut my hours. They promiss this is just temporary buy I know they are lying. I went from a 5000 per year raise to a 12000 pay cut within six weeks. They say take it, or we lay you off. I just wish I could find a professional environment to work in and honest people to work for. I'd move anywhere to find that.

become a razorback! we have honest hard working people here.

FWIW... That is one sick 88 PU and nice work on the fiero also.

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: Some information you might find helpful: 96 PS Corsica axle from a 4T60 car is plug & play for the DS Manual tranny axle and is about 1 1/4" shorter in length (would require running an intermediate shaft and longer passenger axle on the passenger side or a custom longer axle).

I spent a few minutes in Wikipedia looking for other years / models of this shorter axle, but I'm not clear if 4T60 and 4T40 axles interchange, or when the switch was made. I may investigate further, if noone saves me the hassle.
The '96 Corsica was the last of the L-body cars. L body including the 2-door Beretta. Chevy engineered it, while Olds engineered the very similar N-body, which ran through '98 as the Grand Am, Skylark and Achieva.
The Corsica first went from 3 speed automatic to 4 speed automatic for 1994.
So the PS axle from a '94 or '98 Grand Am, for example may work just as well, but I don't yet know for certain.
It's just long odds of finding a '96 Corsica in the salvage yard whichever day you happen to go, and the more apps on your list of donors, the better your odds.

[This message has been edited by Isolde (edited 09-21-2010).]

Very tru all this is a big help to us all

quote Originally posted by Isolde: I spent a few minutes in Wikipedia looking for other years / models of this shorter axle, but I'm not clear if 4T60 and 4T40 axles interchange, or when the switch was made. I may investigate further, if noone saves me the hassle. The '96 Corsica was the last of the L-body cars. L body including the 2-door Beretta. Chevy engineered it, while Olds engineered the very similar N-body, which ran through '98 as the Grand Am, Skylark and Achieva. The Corsica first went from 3 speed automatic to 4 speed automatic for 1994. So the PS axle from a '94 or '98 Grand Am, for example may work just as well, but I don't yet know for certain. It's just long odds of finding a '96 Corsica in the salvage yard whichever day you happen to go, and the more apps on your list of donors, the better your odds.

The 4T60 became an option in 94, but the 125C was not phased out completely until 1996... so during those years you must verify it was the 4T60 (which was installed in most V6 models and most 4cyl got the 125C). The 3 speed axles are longer and until about 98ish they were the smaller shaft/CV setup (like the fiero 125C axles)

EMPIUS.com and interparts.com both have downloadable files of all types of axle information. Using EMPIUS, the 96 corsica axle is part # is 80-1329 and has the following interchanges:
96-98 Skylark, 94-95 Skylark w/4speed auto
94-96+ Baretta/Corsica all V6
96-98 Achieva, 95 Achieva w/4speed auto
96-98 Grand Am, 94-95 Grand Am w/4speed auto

The 94-96 Manual transmission Getrags (V6 only) Baretta/Corsica also came with the intermediate shaft/passenger axle combination that used this same axle on the passenger side.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-21-2010).]

That greatly improves the odds of finding this short axle.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: That greatly improves the odds of finding this short axle.

yep now all I need are some details on the balancer pulley and figure the axle length. Then I can redesign an accessory drive. I'd rather do a serpentine drive than V belt. The one I made for my truck has been working great so far.

[This message has been edited by Cajun Road Warrior (edited 09-21-2010).]

Wow very impressive. With the detail oriented mindset like your own and the background you have you should go ME hopefully with the piece of paper you would get some respect. Sounds to me like you already know your stuff. I am currently in an ME program myself. I started at a community college and alot of the guys there were in similar situations, where they had 5-10 years in the industry but still got dumped on all the time. If it makes you feel any better you have certainly earned the admiration and respect of the fiero community.

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: Wow very impressive. With the detail oriented mindset like your own and the background you have you should go ME hopefully with the piece of paper you would get some respect. Sounds to me like you already know your stuff. I am currently in an ME program myself. I started at a community college and alot of the guys there were in similar situations, where they had 5-10 years in the industry but still got dumped on all the time. If it makes you feel any better you have certainly earned the admiration and respect of the fiero community.

I really appreciate that. The nearest college is 70 miles away and the tuition is way more than I can afford. I'm bearly paying my bills now. I'm selling my Yukon 4X4 to finish my truck.
Greedy employers push an employee just to see how far they can bend. Well this ones on the breaking point so I'm looking for greener pastures. I wish I could win a lottery just so I could start a rival company. The company owner has just a high school education. In fact the only person at this company that has any engineering education at all is the company president's little brother.

I want to build a new fab shop in my back yard. I just need an office and a lot of metal fab tools. I've got a ton of ideas I just need the capital. At the very least I need a TIG, MIG, CNC mini table, lathe, steel band saw, drill press, press brake, Pirana or iron worker, plate roller, english wheel, and auto hammer. Oh and I'd like some fries with that. lol

I do have a small drill press, MIG, plasma cutter, abrasive cutter, Oxy torch, saws all, drills, jig saw, hand tools, floor jacks, and an engine hoist. Just enough stuff to get by.

[This message has been edited by Cajun Road Warrior (edited 09-21-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: ....you have certainly earned the admiration and respect of the fiero community.

Indeed.

That's some impressive work.

quote Originally posted by Cajun Road Warrior: .620 is the thinnest an adapter plate can be made for this appication. Anny thinner and there would be no room for the crank bolt heads on the flywheel. Those bolts would interfere with the spring hub of the clutch. As of now everything is as tight a fit as possible. GM engineers designed the bell housing, clutch, and pressure plate of the front drive transmissions as tight as possible there isn't any room for error. There is a .620 difference between the crank mating flange and the bell housing mating flange of the small block chevy. It is flush on the V6, four cylinder and Cadillac V8's. So the only place I can save space is the accessory drive and harmonic balancer.

True with the SBC/Getrag/Isuzu or Muncie, you can't go any thinner on the adapter plate (I wouldn't go thinner than 3/4" to give you some room to account for the different designs and slightly different thicknesses of the FWD pressure plates and lessen the chance for a mismatch error... but that's just me).
If you switch to the F40 6 speed and then you can run an adapter plate of 1/8" and fit the tranny and entire SBC serpentine setup within the stock frame rails with room to change out the belt... pics of this are in the first link I posted above.

guru, you pointed out that moving the trans much more than 1" requires some notching, and the Corsica axle is 1.25" shorter. So if the shift stops at 1", will lowering the rear suspension make up the missing 0.25"?

In this adapter plate and flywheel design I'm essentially turning an V8 into a V6 at the bell mating flange. and since the V8 crank pokes out .620, Thats the thickness of the plate. To be honest the plate is actually close to .625 That way any trans that bolts to a V6 will bolt directly to my plate. All I have to do is buy a clutch for that application.

[This message has been edited by Cajun Road Warrior (edited 09-22-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Isolde: guru, you pointed out that moving the trans much more than 1" requires some notching, and the Corsica axle is 1.25" shorter. So if the shift stops at 1", will lowering the rear suspension make up the missing 0.25"?

Within the stock fiero tripods, there is range of placement what will work while not being perfect. For example, the typical Archie SBC install shifts the tranny to the driver side between 1/2" to 3/4" and keeps the stock axles. On my particular swap I pushed the drive line to the driver side until the DS axle would bind between full droop/full compression and backed it off about 3/16" (everything solid mounted with minimal deflection)... 5 years and 40K+ miles w/o issue. With the Corsica axle you will most likely run it slightly extended vs. the stock fiero one being ran slightly compressed. I know of one guy who ran the corsica axle in a stock fiero for about a year before he bottomed out over the tracks and fragged the axle cause it popped out... this is why it pays to check things out.

There is a very easy solution to that problem. Shim plates. Make an aluminum shim plate one 1/8" and another 1/4". Just make a note to check for proper clearances before final assembly. Not responsible for interference of non stock assemblies. You would have to do exactly the same thing if you mix clutches and pressure plates on modified 4 and 6 cylinder engines. These same shim plates can be used for those applications as well.

[This message has been edited by Cajun Road Warrior (edited 09-22-2010).]

But the shim plates would need to be between the engine/tranny or adapter plate... and then these shim plates in use or not in use would change the relative placement of the engine mounts to the tranny mounts and overall drivetrain placement. It is much more consistant to design in the needed thickness for the thickest application and set everything to that.

I have got to say, I'm glad to see someone do this without V8 archie! I wonder how long it'll be before archie sticks his nose in this guys awsome post! -strike

You just add the shim plate between the adapter plate and the transmission. that way the flywheel starter, clutch, and pressure plate assemblies stay in the same location relative to eache other. The only thing that need to change is the depth of the bell housing. I just hate using a thick plate if I don't have too. As far as the tri pod, you just slot the holes like I did on the stock tranny mounts on my car. I only slid the enging back a half inch so I could use a standard V belt pulley. I'm looking into many other posibilities. Nothing is set in stone and all options are being considered. I can see the reason for going with the thicker plate, I may do that on another plate design. Also on the table is the option of using a ford starter with a Fiero ring gear. I do believe they have the same gear pitch. I'll have to check my data base.

As of now I'm using a Nissan ring gear and a Dodge starter.

[This message has been edited by Cajun Road Warrior (edited 09-22-2010).]

I was looking at my model of the input shaft of the Munci 4 speed. If I make the adapter plate thicker I'll have less contact with the input shaft and clutch. I'm curious of the differences in the pressure plates on all transaxle combinations.

The clutch I have modeled is a Centerforce centered bronze racing clutch. It is a perfect copy of the real thing. I have most of the pressure plate modeled.

The only part missing is the spring which is not all that important. I wish I had taken the time to model the whole bell housing. When I get time I'll pull my getrag out and detail the heck out of it.

[This message has been edited by Cajun Road Warrior (edited 09-23-2010).]