So I finished wiring the ALDL today and tried to scan it with my autoxray 3000. No go. I know the scanner works, the firmware is updated and it worked just fine on my 84'

Can someone confirm this.
for the caddy--
8th vin B
4th vin C

ALDL connector--
A to ground
B to ECM E12
G to ECM E13 and Fuel pump relay tan/wht
L/M (retty sure its really just L but I did both) to ECM A8

Is ALDL E supposed to go to something? On my fiero diagrams it shows as Derial Data Line TTL, what is this and does it need to be connected?

I checked the above pins with a multimeter to confirm that they are going where they should be and they are. More info on the car. 92 deville motor, rockcrawl chip, manual 4spd, 87' Gt. Did the wiring myself, most likely the problem.

I also have a autoXray 3000. It works great on my 4.9.

8th vin B, 4th vin C, are correct. You wiring looks correct also, but I only have pin L connected.

I think you need to check that all the battery (aways on), ignition (hot when the key in on) and grounds are connected to the ecu.

Well it runs. Does that mean that it might work with the car running rather then key on. I will try that. And I would not be the least bit surprised if I got some of the hot always vs hot in run mixed up or something.

Don't forget about your scanner.
If you told it to look for a 4.9,and the 4.9 data is a different type and needs a different pin position then it will be looking there.
So if it should be on pin L for a caddy,don't put it on pin M.

Verify you have power at your aldl also.
I'm not real saavy on obdi,and don't think it requires it but most OBDII scanners are powered from the DLC (diagnostic link connector/new ALDL) and if there is no power then you will get no info
I believe it is pin 16 on OBDII,it is the far right bottom one with big side on top.

Won't help on this,but maybe OBDI has something similar?

[This message has been edited by DefEddie (edited 11-29-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: So I finished wiring the ALDL today and tried to scan it with my autoxray 3000. No go. I know the scanner works, the firmware is updated and it worked just fine on my 84' Can someone confirm this. for the caddy-- 8th vin B 4th vin C ALDL connector-- A to ground B to ECM E12 G to ECM E13 and Fuel pump relay tan/wht L/M (retty sure its really just L but I did both) to ECM A8 Is ALDL E supposed to go to something? On my fiero diagrams it shows as Derial Data Line TTL, what is this and does it need to be connected? I checked the above pins with a multimeter to confirm that they are going where they should be and they are. More info on the car. 92 deville motor, rockcrawl chip, manual 4spd, 87' Gt. Did the wiring myself, most likely the problem.

The B and C VIN codes appear to be correct.
I've got an AutoXRay 6000 that works just fine.
I can't comment on the pinout of the ALDL, though.
It's an Ed Parks / Fiero Factory harness.
I can get you colors and pins, but it'll be tomorrow evening.

------------------
Raydar
88 4.9 Formula IMSA Fasback..........................88 3.4 coupe -soon to be something other than red

Read Nealz Nuze! Praise the Lowered!

Dizixx: Are you using regular fuel? I thought you could on the 4.9, but when I tried premium my MPG went from 12 to 25. After a few tanks to get all the 87 out I'm up to around 30 on the highway now. 87 gas doesn't work well on 4.9's even if you have a knock sensor.

------------------


86 GT with C&C T-Tops - 4.9l V8

'E' is for Fiero L4 and V6 baud rates. The 4.9 uses 'M' as it is 8192 baud. I forget what the Fiero ones are, but it is around 160 or so.

Maddance - I only use premium with this motor.

josef - So thats the ECM A8 to ALDL M then right?

If you're already using premium and getting 10 MPG it sounds like you have an injector just spraying everywhere all the time or something. Does your exhaust smell like gas? Your idea to scan it sounds like a good one in light of the fact you're already using premium...

The Vin codes to read the 4.9 are vin B for 1991 model year and Vin M for the cadillac 4.9 at 8192 baud.

Joe Sokol

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85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC OBD II
88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby)

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: Can someone confirm this. for the caddy-- 8th vin B 4th vin C ALDL connector-- A to ground B to ECM E12 G to ECM E13 and Fuel pump relay tan/wht L/M (retty sure its really just L but I did both) to ECM A8

This is exactly how mine is wired. Even the double wire on M/L. I also have the exact same scanner. It doesn't seem to matter for me which year I select on the scanner. I can use 91, 92, or 93 without trouble. Are you sure you have the right pin position on the ALDL? It mounts upside down in the car.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 11-30-2009).]

I am pretty sure. Its labled with the letters right above the pin. I have not had the dash/console in so its orientation when mounted does not matter. I tried selecting different years and had the same result. Is it possible that the ECM is messed up and for some reason not communicating with the scanner?

Here is the way I have mine wired up. I hope this helps:


Joe

Have you had your chip reprogrammed? I had 1 instance where my scanner wouldn't read the ECM and it turned out to be a bad burn of the chip. Had the chip reburned and all was good. IIRC there are some problem chips that don't always burn correctly.

Do you have another chip you can try?

As stated you could have a stuck injector, maybe a bad O2 sensor(s), bad burn on the chip.

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: I am pretty sure. Its labled with the letters right above the pin. I have not had the dash/console in so its orientation when mounted does not matter.

Just checking. I have know a couple of guys that did it in the car and did it backwards. They werent looking at the letters.

So now there looks to be conflicting information

ALDL
--------------------
This one (Fieroseverywhere) -
A to ground
B to ECM E12
G to ECM E13 and Fuel pump relay tan/wht
L/M (retty sure its really just L but I did both) to ECM A8

And this one (Joes)
A ground
B ? 10k ohm mode?
M 8192 Baud Data
E 160 Baud Data

Codes Scanning
-------------------------------
This one (Raydar, Johnsop1, Fieroseverywhere) -
8th vin B
4th vin C

And this one (Fiero Kings) -
vin B for 1991 model year and Vin M for the cadillac 4.9 at 8192 baud.


Mickey - I do have another chip but it is a stock 92 deville or seville. Will I be able to check the codes without VATs and the BCM accounted for? What about the other stuff? Or can I just plug it in and try scanning it?
Its possible the O2 is bad/not done right, I tried to wire it for a heated 02 but cant check it as I dont have the scanner, the 02 itself was from a junkyard caddy so I dont know if its any good. Injector maybe but it seems unlikely it purrs and I would think that there would be some oddity to it if it was running with a flooding cylinder. It seems to me like its not going into closed loop. But I dont have the IAC connected and the TPS is not adjusted, is it possible thats why?

And yes it smells very very rich.

[This message has been edited by Dizzixx (edited 11-30-2009).]

I run a scan tool on 4.9's that are wired as the drawing Josf644 posted. I then tell the scan tool the model year of car Vin 8th as B and the engine code Vin 4th M (this tells the code reader Cadillac 4.9 Baud rate 8196. The Caddy ECM communicates at 8196 Baud on pin M of the ALDL Connector not the 169 Baud on pin E that the Fiero ECM uses.

Joe Sokol

------------------
85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC OBD II
88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby)

Then whats with the C vs M thing? I thought they were car type code or something. I dont remember if that was even an option. I know after entering 8th B there are only three options remaining for the 4th vin letter.

Regardless. You will have to pardon my ignorance. But 10k ohm and then a bunch of other stuff marked on pin B is cryptic to me.

Are we in agreement that

A to ground
B to ECM E12
M to ECM A8

is correct?

And again it seems mute. Fieroseverywhere is using the same scanner, ALDL wiring, and I think chip. Which means its either the chip or wiring. I checked and double checked the wiring and it should be fine. Which leaves me suspect of the chip. So is it at all possible that I would hurt anything if I just plugged in the extra ECM I have. I would not try to start it, just scan it. I am thinking that there is no way, but I would be really pissed off if I made my situation worse.

Looking at the face of the ALDL connector (car side) this is what I use (right now I have no idea what pin numbers they are - when I wire I just look at the picture and put that wire in that spot) - this works on AutoXray and an Actron scanners that I have tried (note: plug 'key' on the bottom):


When running my scanner it asks for year, 8th VIN and 4th VIN, as posted, this is what to use (this is what I use) - there is no need to try and figure what the codes mean or at what baud rate xx is at (you can't change that, and in all intent and purpose you really don't care) :
8th vin B
4th vin C

My scanner will also ask if it is a 5.0l (of which you would answer no).

Install the stock chip and try a scan (the scanner doesn't care) - you might even be able to start the car, all depends on the passkey reaction (I have fluked out and started a car a few time without a bypass, but most of the time it wouldn't run).

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 11-30-2009).]

To avoid future confusion it should look like this.



Well thats what I have. I will swap out the ECM asap when I have time and report back with the results.

Thanks

Dizzixx
Be sure and let us all know what you come up with as the correct wiring for the ALDL.

My car is an 88, and was a 4 Cyl. WinAdl would not work with these as the baud rate was 8192, and in a different location, the M pin. So it had 'M' already wire in, and no 'E' .

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 12-01-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: Do you have another chip you can try? As stated you could have a stuck injector, maybe a bad O2 sensor(s), bad burn on the chip.

Not to horn in on this post, but you know I'm having similar issues with fuel economy. The O2 sensor is only about a year old so I'm pretty sure it's good. My auto x-ray is scanning the ECM.

How can I tell if I have a stuck injector?

Don't know if my chip is a bad burn, but I suspect. Where can I get a known good burned chip?

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Not to horn in on this post, but you know I'm having similar issues with fuel economy. The O2 sensor is only about a year old so I'm pretty sure it's good. My auto x-ray is scanning the ECM. How can I tell if I have a stuck injector? Don't know if my chip is a bad burn, but I suspect. Where can I get a known good burned chip?

The only way I know of to test injectors is to remove them and bench test them.

Bad burns - sorry I can not help as to where to get a new one done since Rockcrawl is out of Fiero's. I don't recall which chips it was that he was having problems with. One can always take thier chances with getting StickyPony to burn you a chip (I had him do me a couple and it took well over 6 months of contanst nagging to get them back). Maybe I need to invest in a burner myself, except I don't know much about the code itself - erasing and burning is the easy part? Now if someone was to supply a BIN file that others could download and get burned locally - that may be the way to go.

You see. This is why we need the 4.9 diagnostic system to work in a fiero. It has all the needed tests built in including injector flow tests. I'm still working on it but its one of those back burner projects. You ever have any luck with yours Jscott?

To do it you need the PCM, BCM, FDC (fuel data display), ECC (electronic climate control display), and programmer. BCM data must be turned ON in the pcm. My problem has been getting the displays to light. I can post all the FSM info if anyone is interested in helping to figure this out.

Come on Mickey.... you know you want another project to work on.

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: You see. This is why we need the 4.9 diagnostic system to work in a fiero. It has all the needed tests built in including injector flow tests. I'm still working on it but its one of those back burner projects. You ever have any luck with yours Jscott? To do it you need the PCM, BCM, FDC (fuel data display), ECC (electronic climate control display), and programmer. BCM data must be turned ON in the pcm. My problem has been getting the displays to light. I can post all the FSM info if anyone is interested in helping to figure this out. Come on Mickey.... you know you want another project to work on.

IMHO - it's easier to pull the injectors and bench test them then to add all this extra wiring/etc, again, IMHO for not much gain. You would still have to pull the injectors to see if they are flowing or not as there is nothing on the motor that can tell you that - this injector flow test must just pulse the injectors, you would still have to visually check them to see if they are opening and closing and the spray pattern is good, I can't see a way that it will tell you if an injector is stuck open/partially open.

Just to add to my previous post, when using the scanner you should see the O2 voltage constantly changing, if not there is a problem. You can also monitor the rich/lean flag as it changes back and forth. Keep in mind to do this monitoring after the car is at operating temp - that is to say once the ECM goes into closed loop operation (again you can monitor this on the scanner). Also of note, how far down stream your O2 senosr is will affect it's performance - if too far away from the exhaust manifold(s), you should install a heated O2 sensor.

This is the info I have for a heated O2 (unverified if correct):
Part number: 12559850, fits a 2001-2004 Buick Century

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: To avoid future confusion it should look like this. Well thats what I have. I will swap out the ECM asap when I have time and report back with the results. Thanks

dizzxx, do you have a deville program or a seville/eldorado program on your reflashed chip? that will make a difference too, the aldl is wired slightly different. M going to A8 on the ecm is for devilles. I dont have the wiring diagram for a seville/eldorado in front of me, but i think its actually a different pin that L/M goes to.. i could be wrong though, anybody have the pinout diagram for a 91-92 seville/eldorado handy? all my stuff is packed up in preparation for my move.

My chip is a burn by rockcrawl (92 deville). He had problems flashing it as well. It took him two tries, so I am somewhat suspect that the chip is the problem. Without him around and given what someone said about stickpony there really are not alot of options. I wonder if I could get Joe (rockcrawl) to give me or someone else somewhat of a basic rundown on how to mod the values in the bin file to adjust for idle, wheel size, fan temps, etc. Unless of course you want to step up stickpony and show us that you can provide the same service reliably and in a timely manner. Not trying to call you out, just seems that there is a real opportunity here. People are cautious though.

I also think having the base bin file that he uses, assuming he has no interest in selling them anymore, in the (relatively) public domain of PFF and other fiero resource sites would be invaluble. Maybe stickpony would be willing to share how the bin works. I would think that regardless of whether people know how most would still choose to have someone else do it, alot of that having to do with the buy in regarding a prom burner.

Also I am going to have to agree that although the caddy diag system is built for the thing it just seems like it would be a huge hassle to get to work correctly in a fiero, not to mention it adds a fairly large amount of other stuff that you need to complete a swap. I actually considered going carbed to avoid all this hassle but decided that if I was going to do that then I would just do a 350 instead. Partly its the technology that makes the 4.9 so great and helps people achieve mpg numbers in the high twentys and low 30s definately one of the deciding factors when deciding on a swap to be used as a daily driver.

Jscott where is your 02 located. Mine is on the rear manifold. I went heated because I didnt know where I was going to put it.

[This message has been edited by Dizzixx (edited 12-01-2009).]

Bin files for the 4.x engines can be found here...
http://www.tunercat.com/
19.95 each and they have all models. Seville/eldorado, Deville/fleetwood/60 special, and Allante. Whatever chip you have will also contain a bin file. It can be accessed before it is eraced. There is more info in that site that lists what is changable and what tables are in there.

Thats the easy part. With this info you can get pretty much anyone with a burner to burn you one.

There are a few others on this forum that have the equipment to burn a chip besides Stickpony. I will say while he wasn't the fastest he did the job and even did a second chip for me to correct a problem free of charge. Now if we could just get him to stay in town and work on them full time. But the man has to work too. 4.9 chips alone won't pay the bills.

EDIT: To add info for those who want to do it themselves....
http://www.gmtuners.com/eprom/DIY.htm

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 12-01-2009).]

I think Lloyd at FastFieros was doing chips also, but I'm not sure if he was doing any 4.9 chips or not.

You can also try Cooter here on the forum. He has done them in the past for people so maybe you can talk him into doing another one.

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: Datalogging, PCM switch tests, PCM output cycling, scanning and real time data reading just to name a few.

My scanner already does all that - no wires to connect, just plug it in and go.

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: My scanner already does all that - no wires to connect, just plug it in and go.

Output cycling and switch tests? Thats some kind of scanner you have there.

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: Output cycling and switch tests? Thats some kind of scanner you have there.

...well ok, you caught me on that as it does not do the output cycling, but it will check switches (as related to power train - can't do door switches etc as that is a function of the BCM - which you would have to wire into the system yourself if you want that function as well )....but hey, go for it if you see a need to have it. :cheers:

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 12-01-2009).]

And after you have bravely pioneered on be sure to post and let us know how it all works, in laymen terms.

My O2 is located just downstream of where the Y pipe comes together. I'm getting changing voltage on the O2 sensor, I'm getting the Rich/Lean toggle, I'm getting closed loop....there is nothing in the data stream to indicate a problem...it even passed Texas emissions, so I'm not dumping too much raw gas out the tailpipe, except my gas is leaving the tank far faster than it should.

I do have the BCM, FDC (fuel data display), ECC (electronic climate control display), and programmer, not sure if it would tell me anything other than my auto X-ray, but I just wanted to do it for fun someday.

I probably need to test the injectors, because my car sitting for nearly two years probably could lead to a stuck injector. The only other variable is the burn on my chip, (which was reflashed when I went 6 speed) Other than that I'm stumped.

An aside: Do they test emissions for the stock engine or for the swapped one? Here in utah they test as the stock engine (2.8) so I was able to pass emissions with flying colors while running rich and without a cat.

I have never even taken out injectors before. My limited experience is with carbed engines. How can you tell if its stuck by looking at one? Or do you have to have it flow tested? Mine sat for nearly that long as well.

I used a BURN2 that I got from moates.net to read the prom in my memcal. The bin that I got off the chip was a BWYN. Then I used Tunercat software and the NS1 setup file to modify the bin. I disabled VATS and made a few other changes.

Then I unsoldered the prom from my memcal and soldered in a 27SF512 that I also got from moates.net, and burned may new bin to it. The 27SF512 is a flash programmable chip, so you don't need to erase it with a UV light when you want to reprogram it.

So far it is working well. I have started my 4.9 a few times and code scanning works.

I will know more after I get my cooling system filled and can run the motor through a full temp cycle.

The injectors aren't real bad to remove. I have mine out now. Read page 6 on my swap in General Chat for a method I used to check for plugged and dripping injectors. The info in the books is real vague on how to remove them. If you are going to take them out let me know and I will give you detailed instructions and some tips I learned by doing this.
Joe