quote Originally posted by dbtk2: As much as I hate agreeing with darkhorizon on stuff, if you have a halfway reasonable tune you won't break stock 3800 pistons, no matter if they are l36/l67/l32/l26, they won't break. I can understand people wanting to make their engines strong and thus going with the forged pistons, but there is no reason to do it, and you can save yourself a lot of money running the stock pistons. The added "safety" you arguably get from running forged pistons, you can more than makeup for with a better intercooler or other changes to the setup so you don't have to run it so far on the edge that you need said forged pistons. If you don't detonate, stock 3800 pistons don't fail at any power level you guys are running. Matt M runs mid 8's and traps over 160mph with a stock junkyard l67 shortblock, 28psi boost, nitrous, 7500rpm, it gets beat pretty hard, makes over 750whp (without nitrous), thats north of 900 crank hp. Did i mention this was a stock shortblock? Not balanced, didn't get new rings or bearings or pistons, it was a used stock junkyard motor with a cam shoved in it and some good heads bolted up to it. So maybe if you're looking to make 1000+ crank hp, you should look into forged pistons? As far as the headgaskets being the weak point over the pistons, run whatever gaskets you want, they'll be the weak point. I have completely destroyed 2 sets of MLS gaskets and never had any sort of piston issue. I have a completely stock l36 shortblock and can't break the thing and i beat the **** out of it. I drive it daily with a Gen V and 2.7 pulley, 21.5 degrees of timing, and 13.2:1 afr.

So are you saying that you would presonally guarantee nobody on this forum can destroy a stock 3800 piston with the power levels we are pushing? Would you be willing to back that up with your own wallet and pay for someone else's repairs should they break one and it was not due to detonation?

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 12-31-2009).]

So would you say that Silv-O-Lite pistons would be more durable in a 3800 block against pre-detonation as they are made of an aluminum alloy vs. the stock hypereutectic pistons?

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: So are you saying that you would presonally guarantee nobody on this forum can destroy a stock 3800 piston with the power levels we are pushing? Would you be willing to back that up with your own wallet and pay for someone else's repairs should they break one and it was not due to detonation?

I wouldnt personally guarantee a bone stock L67 to most the people on this forum. Stuff happens... if I sold a forged motor to someone and they OBVIOUSLY blew it up, I wouldnt guarantee it any more than if they did the same with a stock bottom end. The ZZP crate motor warranty is the same way... its just if you void that warranty, you are out a motor and $2000+. That being said, its a well known fact that it takes some REALLY severe situations to blow up even a L36 (that is undeniable hard proof for those trolls out there), so if you managed to nuke a zzp shortblock, it is likely that given the same situation on a stock block it would have not failed or failed the same way.

So in short, if you are going to be dumb enough to strap a bomb to your shortblock, forged or stock it wont make a difference.

In a car with alot of boost and horsepower, the absolute last thing I would be worried about would be the bottom end. It would be more about keeping oil pressure up, the ignition system working, and other things that normal people focus their time on.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: <snip>so if you managed to nuke a zzp shortblock, it is likely that given the same situation on a stock block it would have not failed or failed the same way.<snip>

What are you trying to say here? That if a ZZP shortblock pops, a similar stock shortblock wouldn't... or it could? Your statements are confusing and contradict themselves.

I'm not trying to push your buttons, I'm just trying to understand your point of view.

quote Originally posted by GS Jon: What are you trying to say here? That if a ZZP shortblock pops, a similar stock shortblock wouldn't... or it could? .

Basically yes. Given the same set of conditions, IE knocking, I would be willing to bet that the stock shortblock is going to hold together without blowing a headgasket, or whatever, due to blowby.

Also I dont think zzp is going to warranty their motor to specifically handle knocking, or conditions that would otherwise kill a stock shortblock. So in direct response, why put the forged pistons in, by "the best" builder, for a premium price, if you dont even get the warranty against knock killing your motor? Hense the, "nobody is going to guarantee anything if you strap a bomb to it".

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 12-31-2009).]

Here's a simple summary of this whole argument:

-The 3800 shortblock is very stout. It will take a lot of abuse and can produce huge power with no work.

-That being said, the most important thing with these engines is to make sure you have a good tune and proper fueling. Bad tunes and leaning out tend to pop pistons on these engines, due to a design/cost compromise.

-Stock pistons are hyperutectic and have the top ring too close to the top of the piston. This doesn't mean that big power can't be made with them, but there is less room for error in tuning and fueling.

-Forged pistons are made for this engine. As far as alloy and design, most brands should be superior to the stockers. These will provide a bit more insurance to a bad tune, as they can take more heat and detonation, but it is only a band-aid. Once again, a good tune and proper fueling are the most important things.

-Should you decide that you want to go with forged pistons, take them to someone who is familiar with rebuilding 3800s. Build tolerances are different than other engines like the sbc, and if not done properly will result in early failure.


I have run my ~70k bone stock shortblock over 30-times in the 1/4 mile and it's still running strong. I attribute this to have a good/pretty safe tune and monitoring both my wideband and my laptop on these passes. My wideband saved my engine earlier this year when my fuel pump took a dump. If I didn't have it, I would not have known I was leaning out under boost until i blew a hole through a piston.

If I ever nuke this engine, I will probably just pick up another stock shortblock to throw in it. I'm not building my car any faster and It runs fine as is. If you are considering going with forged pistons, I would suggest you 1st invest your money in a wideband, and hptuners and get a solid tune on your car. If you have that, and you still feel the need for the extra work, then go for it. But make sure it gets done right.

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'88 GT- 3800 Turbo Best E.T.- 11.654 Best MPH-120.65
gmtuners.com -Build info

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: So are you saying that you would presonally guarantee nobody on this forum can destroy a stock 3800 piston with the power levels we are pushing? Would you be willing to back that up with your own wallet and pay for someone else's repairs should they break one and it was not due to detonation?

What I'm saying is that you guys aren't going to break stock pistons due to power levels, they fail from detonation or fail due to damage from other parts failing (i.e. dropped valve). Keep the tune good and they aren't gonna break. I can't guarantee anything because I can't control peoples use of them, but i do know I can build a 1000hp 3800, run stock pistons, and not break them.

quote In a car with alot of boost and horsepower, the absolute last thing I would be worried about would be the bottom end. It would be more about keeping oil pressure up, the ignition system working, and other things that normal people focus their time on.

Exactly. I worry about the tranny breaking and head gaskets more than anything really, i don't even think in the very back of my mind that just maybe the shortblock is gonna fail, and I run the very weakest version of a series II/III 3800 with almost 260k miles on it. I am very aggressive with the tune, rev it to 7250, and it doesn't even phase it when i run a 125 shot on top of all that, and while I admit i dont use the nitrous all that often i have run 3 bottles through it. I have hundreds and hundreds of 1/4 mile passes on it (most of which were mid 12's or quicker), dozens of dyno pulls in the mid-high 300's, and probably half a dozen in the mid 400's (all on pump gas), and on top of that I drive it daily and its my only car.

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1999 Grand Prix GT 257,500+ miles.
XPZ, Heads, Pacesetters, S2 IC, Gen V, N* tb, UD pulleys, 160tstat, tune, etc...
11.682 @ 117.2 w/1.77 60', 379.9whp on 93 octane.

[This message has been edited by dbtk2 (edited 12-31-2009).]

quote Originally posted by AkursedX: /snip

Well said, Joe.

And the point I've been trying to make here is, as a builder, I cannot assume the tune I put on a customer's car will always be right (for the conditions) after it leaves the shop. I have not had the opportunity to tune a car in every operating and weather condition possible. And I doubt DH or many other people have either. And for DH and others to say "stock parts will hold up fine to XXX hp" is not entirely accurate because their statements (as worded) make it sound like they assume the tune will always be perfect. Well the failures that have been presented on this forum and others prove my point that tunes are not always perfect (or at least don't always stay perfect), regardless of who tuned them in the first place.

Let me put this another way. If you have a wideband and your own tuning setup and know how to tune your own car, then I will agree you stand a better chance of having success using stock parts in a high-HP application. And I think that's in agreement with what DH is saying. But where I differ is, I don't assume that everyone has or wants the ability to tune their own cars and pay attention to certain sensor readings and such to make sure nothing goes wrong with the tune. Based on this, I cannot recommend to everyone under the sun that they will be just fine using stock parts at the power levels DH and his friends suggest; especially to those who have no desire to do their own tuning nor pay attention to the vital sensor readings that monitor engine health.

Agree or disagree?

COMPLETELY disagree... The pistons are not going to save you from mistakes... You are going to blow headgaskets, rods, cranks, bearings all before the pistons are going to give you issues in bad tune situations. You dont build a motor to make up for skimping other places...

"oh yea my car is going lean right now, but I will race you anyway because my forged pistons are awesome and it means my bottom end can NEVER break"......

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: COMPLETELY disagree... The pistons are not going to save you from mistakes... You are going to blow headgaskets, rods, cranks, bearings all before the pistons are going to give you issues in bad tune situations. You dont build a motor to make up for skimping other places... "oh yea my car is going lean right now, but I will race you anyway because my forged pistons are awesome and it means my bottom end can NEVER break"......

That's funny, because I've seen more popped piston ring lands (on stock pistons) than I've seen blown head gaskets, broken rods and cranks, and spun bearings on these engines. In fact, thinking back I can say I've seen about 5x as many failures where the ONLY damage to the engine was a stock piston ring land failure and nothing else vs. something else in the engine failing before the pistion did. At least in instances where either too much boost was used, there was detonation, or the engine went lean. How do you explain the only damage being stock piston failure and nothing else in those instances?

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 12-31-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: That's funny, because I've seen more popped piston ring lands (on stock pistons) than I've seen blown head gaskets, broken rods and cranks, and spun bearings on these engines. In fact, thinking back I can say I've seen about 5x as many failures where the ONLY damage to the engine was a stock piston ring land failure and nothing else vs. something else in the engine failing before the pistion did. At least in instances where either too much boost was used, there was detonation, or the engine went lean. How do you explain the only damage being stock piston failure and nothing else in those instances?

Get better knock sensors? stop running 87 octane?

With the forged pistons, instead of broken ringlands, you will just have other broken parts. The force doesnt disappear when you change the type of metal in the piston.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Get better knock sensors? stop running 87 octane? With the forged pistons, instead of broken ringlands, you will just have other broken parts. The force doesnt disappear when you change the type of metal in the piston.

Really, you think? Doh, what was I thinking... [/sarcasm]

I can cite 2 specific situations where I have witnessed 2 engines fail from a broken piston ring land ONLY and in both instances the fuel was right (AFR and octane) and no knock was detected. But in both of these cases the cause was the boost level was too high (SC pulley was too small) for the mods that had been done to the engine.

I don't think I ever said forged pistons would save your engine from any and all failures, so you can stop putting words in my mouth. If you would close yours and listen to what I am saying you might actually learn something.

I did say that what forged pistons buy you is more margin for error. After all, the AFR has to go lean first before you will see that is going lean on the wideband. Detonation has to occur first before that will show up in the scans telling you there is KR. And it is during these short periods of time when these issues FIRST occur before YOU have a chance to catch and correct them that the internal engine parts will be subjected to those high streeses that cause failures. And forged pistons simply buy you more time in catching/correcting these issues before real damage can occur. And that's a fact.

{quote]Take a close look at that top compression ring[/quote]

It is bent upward, as in when it rotated, it ripped and bent up..... You can also see a large piece of it missing because it was crushed when it rotated.

If this is true that this caused the failure... why is it that I and my "crew" have never experienced this before? Again, using "well something else was wrong" is not an excuse to use forged pistons for saving anything.

You can EASILY chip a piston on a nearly stock motor, IE a 3.4 pulley car with significant physical failures, that went unchecked for extended periods of time... Yet those situations where you are chipping pistons in a 500+hp car are going fantastically catastrophic, forged pistons or not. so...

300hp + failure = chipped pistons.... if you had forged, maybe you can stretch it out until you ruin the crank or rods.

500hp + failure = headgasket, rods, crank, block, valves, whatever will go no matter what piston you have.

So do aftermarket pistons still have the issue with the top ring too high on the piston or is that just the GM factory pistons?

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon:300hp + failure = chipped pistons.... if you had forged, maybe you can stretch it out until you ruin the crank or rods. 500hp + failure = headgasket, rods, crank, block, valves, whatever will go no matter what piston you have.

Again, if you're running a supercharged application and you're not monitoring your A/F and knock, you're wrong. Yeah, I know what you're gonna say "Why are you spending another $500 (est) to monitor A/F on a basically stock engine, stop trying to waste his money!" Guess what? I know that parts have a finite life expectancy, and if something goes bad (fuel pump, regulator or an A/F controlling sensor) I want to know about it ASAP.

The pistons are not there to allow someone to be fat, dumb and happy, bebopping along ignoring their car's poor condition. They're there to help keep the engine together until a user who is monitoring what their car is doing can shut it down after noticing they're engine leaning out.

I'm thinking that this conversation is falling into two camps:
- Camp 1 would rather spend more now to avoid having to tear into their engine later and doubling their work
- Camp 2 would rather get their car on the road as cheap as possible hoping that nothing bad happens, then uses the money they "saved" to put in another engine once their inattention to what their engine was up to bites them in the ass.

I like not having to drop my cradle for failures. But that's just me.

quote Originally posted by GS Jon: Again, if you're running a supercharged application and you're not monitoring your A/F and knock, you're wrong. Yeah, I know what you're gonna say "Why are you spending another $500 (est) to monitor A/F on a basically stock engine, stop trying to waste his money!" Guess what? I know that parts have a finite life expectancy, and if something goes bad (fuel pump, regulator or an A/F controlling sensor) I want to know about it ASAP. The pistons are not there to allow someone to be fat, dumb and happy, bebopping along ignoring their car's poor condition. They're there to help keep the engine together until a user who is monitoring what their car is doing can shut it down after noticing they're engine leaning out. I'm thinking that this conversation is falling into two camps: - Camp 1 would rather spend more now to avoid having to tear into their engine later and doubling their work - Camp 2 would rather get their car on the road as cheap as possible hoping that nothing bad happens, then uses the money they "saved" to put in another engine once their inattention to what their engine was up to bites them in the ass. I like not having to drop my cradle for failures. But that's just me.

I'm not on anybody side or camp here. DH has given me more tuning info on here than anyone else has been willing to. One of the very 1st things he said is I absolutely need a wideband. He'll say used short blocks are fine but you will NEVER here him say skimp on tuning or tuning equipment. There are many, many cars running around with stock bottom ends that a very reliable at the track and on the street. I think if my tune had remained the same I would never of had the problems I had. I would like to think a forged piston would've saved at least some of my engine but who really knows. I'm 50/50 on putting forged pistons in my next motor. By the way I never got your opinion of what started my engine destruction off? I'm very interested in as many opinions as possible. Chris

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: It is bent upward, as in when it rotated, it ripped and bent up..... You can also see a large piece of it missing because it was crushed when it rotated.

What caused it to bend up then? What did that ring get "caught" on in the smooth cylinder that caused it to bend up? I stand by my previous statement that I think what really happened was the ring deformed/bent due to not enough end ring gap and being exposed to too much heat/boost because of the factory piston's design. If you can prove to me some other way this ring bent the way it did, I am all ears. But the way it looks to me is, the ring failed first, then it broke the piston, and then the pieces of piston caused the rest of the damage to the engine -- in that order.

quote If this is true that this caused the failure... why is it that I and my "crew" have never experienced this before? Again, using "well something else was wrong" is not an excuse to use forged pistons for saving anything.

How many people are in "your crew"? 3, 4? And what difference does it make if you and "your crew" has run into this problem before? Does that mean because something doesn't happen to your crew, it simply can't happen to anyone? That's where you are wrong. All kinds of things can and do happen, and just because YOU don't see them on your crew's cars, doesn't mean it isn't possible. I know of at least one L32 engine that popped a piston ring land because the engine went lean ONE time during a WOT run. It was a very low mileage engine (very tight clearances) and one time going lean is all it took. The only damage done was a broken ring land; as a matter of fact, the engine still ran fine after that. Didn't even scratch the cylinder wall.

quote You can EASILY chip a piston on a nearly stock motor, IE a 3.4 pulley car with significant physical failures, that went unchecked for extended periods of time... Yet those situations where you are chipping pistons in a 500+hp car are going fantastically catastrophic, forged pistons or not. so... 300hp + failure = chipped pistons.... if you had forged, maybe you can stretch it out until you ruin the crank or rods. 500hp + failure = headgasket, rods, crank, block, valves, whatever will go no matter what piston you have.

That's where we disagree and I think you are wrong. A problem does not need to exist for an "extended period of time" before damage can occur. That L32 incident I just mentioned is a prime example of this. A failure can occur if something bad happens for just one instant. Depending on what conditions are present.

I don't know what your problem with forged pistons is and I don't really care. The FACT of the matter is they buy you more margin for error IF something goes wrong. Nobody is disputing the fact that if someone is stupid and keeps beating on their car when something isn't right, that forged pistons are going to save the engine; because we can all agree they won't. All I (and others) are saying is forged pistons just give you more "security" against a failure because they can tolerate more heat and pressure vs. what the stock piston can. And all I've been saying is I recommend to those building hi-HP setups that don't intend on doing their own tuning nor monitoring every aspect of their engine's health is they should run forged pistons because it will help the engine live longer if there is a problem. It might help long enough that they recognize there is a problem (by the way the engine is running or the sounds it makes) and shut it down. It may not. But using the forged slugs buys you more time before there is a failure, period. And you have failed to dispute that regardless of how many examples you try to present to counter the arguement.

quote Originally posted by GS Jon: Again, if you're running a supercharged application and you're not monitoring your A/F and knock, you're wrong. Yeah, I know what you're gonna say "Why are you spending another $500 (est) to monitor A/F on a basically stock engine, stop trying to waste his money!" Guess what? I know that parts have a finite life expectancy, and if something goes bad (fuel pump, regulator or an A/F controlling sensor) I want to know about it ASAP. The pistons are not there to allow someone to be fat, dumb and happy, bebopping along ignoring their car's poor condition. They're there to help keep the engine together until a user who is monitoring what their car is doing can shut it down after noticing they're engine leaning out. I'm thinking that this conversation is falling into two camps: - Camp 1 would rather spend more now to avoid having to tear into their engine later and doubling their work - Camp 2 would rather get their car on the road as cheap as possible hoping that nothing bad happens, then uses the money they "saved" to put in another engine once their inattention to what their engine was up to bites them in the ass. I like not having to drop my cradle for failures. But that's just me.

I don't think anyone is saying to just put the engine in there and ignore it. No matter what bottom end setup you are running, you should be monitoring it. I believe in spending the time into a good/safe tune setup rather than buying forged pistons so you "dont have to worry about it". If you keep the tune good, the stock pistons don't break. Get a wideband, fuel pressure gauge, and make sure you have a way to scan for knock at the very least, if you have these items you are 10x better off than just throwing some forged pistons in there and crossing your fingers.

I have no problems with someone going out and buying a set of forged pistons, if someone wants to do it go right ahead, its your money. However, i will never be the one going out and buying them, I am confident if you keep the tune good stock pistons won't break. If its not broke, don't fix it. If you have a customer that isn't going to, or doesn't want to watch some gauges to make sure their investment isn't going to self destruct, then you don't tune it that aggressively. Sure the tune is going to be different in other weather conditions, and vary with different fuel that they run and whatnot, but richen it up a half point and pull a couple degrees of timing out of it from where you would normally feel comfortable with it, and the tune should be pretty solid. If its a problem that developed such as a fuel pressure issue or something, obviously this can cause a problem but if you are modding to the level where you need forged pistons, id sure hope you would have a fuel pressure gauge and at least be able to watch that and see that something is wrong.

In all of the setups that I've built and/or tuned, they all ran stock pistons, most of which i setup what most would consider pretty aggresive, and have never had a piston failure. On one occasion i had a setup drop a valve and thus take out a piston, had one throw 2 rods out the side of the block, had multiple head gasket failures (suspected due to high timing), pretty much everything except piston failures. All of these setups were at least 300whp.

Now, I'm not going to say I've never seen a piston failure in these engines. I have seen a LOT of chipped pistons, but it was always on a setup with a tuning error, whether it be too much boost, too lean, timing, or whatever. Usually they are pretty mild setups not making much power.

[This message has been edited by dbtk2 (edited 01-01-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Dementia: <snip>By the way I never got your opinion of what started my engine destruction off? I'm very interested in as many opinions as possible. Chris

By looking at your pictures, I think the tie wrap stuck to your ring was the problem.

Yes, I'm joking.

EDIT: Oh, and you say you had new rings on the pistons, what was your endgap set to?

[This message has been edited by GS Jon (edited 01-01-2010).]

dbtk2, I agree with you. This discussion is funny. If people want to run forged pistons to help give a bigger cushion against mistakes, more power to them. I am making over 500hp on a junkyard engine. I'm using a stand alone engine management system, and a lot of times, I turn OFF the knock control. I have both knock sensors hooked up, but reallistically, I don't always use them. The 3800 crowd seems to rely on the knock sensors for tuning, and while its a good idea, I think people are leaving a lot of the table because they're too worried about KR. Yes detonation will kill an engine right away, but a lot of time, I found it easier to crank the boost than the timing.

My stock pistons have seen many WOT pulls at 20+psi and 14.5 afr. They haven't broken yet. I've pushed 27psi on these stock pistons, they haven't broken yet. I don't have the best turbo out there, but its still a T70 and moves a decent amount of air at these boost levels. I only rev my car to 6300rpms but I hang this thing on the rev limiter during WOT 2nd gear burnouts and guess what, the pistons haven't broken yet.

I'm not saying they're the best thing out there. People that don't know how to tune break pistons all the time. All i'm trying to say is if someone wants to build a high horsepower 3800, pistons aren't MANDATORY. I think they will help tuning mistakes though.

quote Originally posted by dbtk2: I don't think anyone is saying to just put the engine in there and ignore it. No matter what bottom end setup you are running, you should be monitoring it. I believe in spending the time into a good/safe tune setup rather than buying forged pistons so you "dont have to worry about it". If you keep the tune good, the stock pistons don't break. Get a wideband, fuel pressure gauge, and make sure you have a way to scan for knock at the very least, if you have these items you are 10x better off than just throwing some forged pistons in there and crossing your fingers.

Nobody is suggesting to just throw a set of forged pistons in a motor and forget about it. Where are you guys getting this impression? That is NOT what we are saying at all. But to say if you keep the tune "good", the stock pistons won't break is irresponsible. Because that good tune may, can, and usually does go bad at some point in time (for any number of reasons); or an operating condition could arise that could throw that good tune off. And even if you are monitoring these readings every second the engine is running, something has to go wrong FIRST (IE: AFR go lean, detonation occurs) BEFORE you see that reported in the gauges/monitoring equipment signaling you that a change in the tune is needed to compensate. And to say the stock pistons can tolerate these "less than ideal" operating conditions for any length of time, amounts to rolling the dice and hoping they will survive until you get a chance to update the tune.

quote … I am confident if you keep the tune good stock pistons won't break....If its a problem that developed such as a fuel pressure issue or something, obviously this can cause a problem but if you are modding to the level where you need forged pistons, id sure hope you would have a fuel pressure gauge and at least be able to watch that and see that something is wrong.

But doesn't the problem have to occur first before the gauges will tell you something is wrong? And during this time, wouldn’t the internal engine parts be subjected to these "less than ideal" conditions until you react and take action to correct them? Why wouldn’t forged pistons buy you more time (margin for error) before they fail in these adverse operating conditions vs. what stock pistons afford you?

I'm not saying forged pistons (or something else) wouldn't eventually fail if the engine was left to operate under bad conditions. So don't misunderstand. All I'm saying is forged pistons buy you more time/margin for error if something does go wrong.

quote In all of the setups that I've built and/or tuned, they all ran stock pistons, most of which i setup what most would consider pretty aggresive, and have never had a piston failure.

Good for you. Can you guarantee nobody else will have a problem because you haven't? No?

quote On one occasion i had a setup drop a valve and thus take out a piston, had one throw 2 rods out the side of the block, had multiple head gasket failures (suspected due to high timing), pretty much everything except piston failures. All of these setups were at least 300whp.

If you guys are dropping valves and throwing rods then maybe you should evaluate the way you are building/tuning engines. Because I have never had any of these problems with my builds (and yes I have built many motors that put down well over 300whp).

quote Now, I'm not going to say I've never seen a piston failure in these engines. I have seen a LOT of chipped pistons, but it was always on a setup with a tuning error, whether it be too much boost, too lean, timing, or whatever. Usually they are pretty mild setups not making much power.

Ok, so why couldn't forged pistons of helped in these situations?

Would it have been a waste of money to use forged pistons at these power levels? Perhaps. But how much does a shop charge to R&R an engine these days? I can't imagine everyone who drives a car (or even tunes it themselves) is capable of changing/repairing their own engine. So would the cost of buying and using forged pistons outweigh the cost of R&R'ing an engine?

Let's get down to the brass tacks here... Why have you seen so many chipped stock pistons? I thought you guys said they hold up fine to XXX amount of HP and all you had to do was make sure the tune was right. Why have you seen so many failures on (you say) builds only producing relatively low/moderate power levels? What's the problem? Furthermore, how many of these cars were tuned by people claiming to be "good" tuners?

See, that's my point. Not every tuner out there with a laptop and tuning software is a good tuner. The worst ones I know think they know everything and tune setups to within an inch of their lives. And it is usually cars tuned by these people that suffer engine failures most often. And when that happens, the person who tuned the car always blamed the failure on something else (never the tune he/she made). Should we take their word for it?

Would the use of forged pistons prevent ANY engine damage from occurring in these types of situations? No, I’m not saying that at all. COULD the use of forged pistons BUY the operator of the car more time to realize there is something going wrong and take action before damage occurs? Yes, I think they would.

quote The 3800 crowd seems to rely on the knock sensors for tuning,

In the era of no widebands, KR was a great way to find the edge of timing/fueling, more so than relying on narrowband readings. Other than that, I RARELY scan knock on my 400+whp car, the wideband/fuel pressure gauges are more than enough to keep my rods/headgasket in one piece.

I think the most important addition to this thread was the points made stressing that anyone making 300+whp, typically has never chipped a piston, ever. Piston failure is something very directly situated around stockish, restrictive M90 blower setups.