to start with, it is based on a fan, not a compressor. this means it CANNOT create boost. it can reduce vacuum tho. since it is such an easy install & uninstall, and probably under $100 - it would be nice if someone actually stepped up and took it to a dyno for some real results. I would bet you will get 10 hp.
The electric motors to run those wouldn't be powerful enough to produce any boost. the fan blades would probably cause a restriction more then anything else. Those things are just scams.
To get enough power out a centrifugal supercharger they have to be belt driven like a Vortech Superchargers (http://www.vortechsupercharger.com) powerdynes (http://www.powerdyne.com/) When looking to add boost or any horsepower for that matter there is never really a cheap solution to make good gains.
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03:18 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Most of those are marine bilge fans. A fan is not going to make any boost.
There is no such thing as free horsepower. If it was going to give you a 1 HP increase, it would have to put in at least 1 HP of energy via the "supercharger." 1 HP = 745 Watts. At 12 V, that's 62 amps. So even if it's 100 % efficient, you're going to need 62 amps for every 1 HP increase. Does that look like a 62 amp electric motor?
Now, let's say it does work, and it gives you 5 HP, so it pulls about 310 amps. Um, where does that 310 amps come from? Oh yea, the car's alternator which is driven by .... the engine!
I have seen an electric supercharger that should work. But it requires a bank of batteries to use and it drains them pretty fast. The car keeps them charged up while driving, but you've only got a few seconds of available boost before you have to let it recharge again. And it's a LOT more expensive.
Like Formua88 says.. You don't get something for nothing.. The average supercharger takes 20 horsepower to create enough boost to do anything. There's NO WAY a leaf blower or hair drier is ever going to even come close to that. The eBay one you ask about is only a tiny fraction of 1 horsepower.
The only decent electric supercharger is one made by Thomas Night... They sell them at the link Formula88 provides.. The Thomas Night supercharger is a REAL supercharger that's been modified.. The engine pulley has been removed and it's driven instead by a bank of three powerful starter motors. (Each one is as strong as the starter motor on our Fieros). This unit is limited to smaller engines (Up to 3.8 liters in size). It won't work on V8 engines.. It just can't provide enough boost.
HAHA yeah I figured...I know its not a real supercharger, thats why I used "quotes "
i just thought it might by some chance help breathing. I remember seeing an infomercial one time for something called the "cyclone" (or something like that) Same idea. You put this little fan thing in your intake tube and ta-da! Horsepower galore and gas milage! Yeah right.
Just thought i'd ask...thanks for the info. Maybe someone thinkin about buying one of these will read this and think again.
There is no such thing as free horsepower. If it was going to give you a 1 HP increase, it would have to put in at least 1 HP of energy via the "supercharger." 1 HP = 745 Watts. At 12 V, that's 62 amps. So even if it's 100 % efficient, you're going to need 62 amps for every 1 HP increase. Does that look like a 62 amp electric motor?
Now, let's say it does work, and it gives you 5 HP, so it pulls about 310 amps. Um, where does that 310 amps come from? Oh yea, the car's alternator which is driven by .... the engine!
Not exactly true. You are forcing more air in (theoretically, not saying these things ca create positive pressure), then your Map sensor says to the ecm, YO lets get some more fuel over here cause were reading in the black not the red anymore. So the HP energy comes from the fuel and the air, so the electric motor is only adding SOME of the 1hp. Its kind of a moot point, but its correct.
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06:58 PM
PFF
System Bot
tjm4fun Member
Posts: 3781 From: Long Island, NY USA Registered: Feb 2006
Say what you want, but I have one of them on my boat, and it works. it's only venting fumes from the bilge, but it works. maybe not the exact same one, but it sure looks like it. rectangular flange, and all. would it flow enough for a motor? I doubt it as the highest rated ones only flow 450 cfm at 0 pressure, the cfm drops drastically with any restrictions. I posted a link to those a while back as a joke, for a chuckle, and obviously most people went off on a tangent taking it seriously. would probably work on a 2 cylinder motor tho, never know when you need a super powered pressure washer!
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07:04 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
roots blowers operate under the same idea as one of these electric fans.
Someone actually took a m62 eaton blower, strapped 2 starter motors to it, and a trunk full of capacitor type batteries and made 9psi of boost on a toyota 4cyl.
The leafblower video on the honda, on the dyno, was true, it actually did make about 5% more horsepower because of that leafblower. They also sprayed nitrous into the leaf blower making an extra 40 hp or something.
Snakeoil; it would not even be good enough to replace your interior heater fan motor. But, some unsuspecting folks will buy them and swear they have picked up 50 hp and the car goes like hell now. Have another drink foolish eBay buyer.
I agree, when something is too good to be true it usually isn't true. But check out the feedback - 100's of happy purchasers.
It is incredibly easy to buy positive feedback on ebay. Lots of these fraudsters on ebay have friends that give them feedback, shill accounts or do the buying coupons for $1.00 to buy a feedback point.
If a bilge blower could do what they say it would be allover the news. If you really want to try one go to a marine store and buy the exact same thing and buy a bilge blower for $18.99-$25.99 and use that.
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07:23 PM
frankenfiero1 Member
Posts: 441 From: maryville TN USA Registered: Oct 2006
With a "blow through" design like it is made for, it can actually work. Consider this; first of all, it is before the throttle body therefore the MAP is not fooled. When the throttle plate opens, the positive pressure can make the engine think it is getting more air (thus more fuel due to the MAP). The more you open your throttle plate, the more air will flow depending on pressure. Now instead of relying on the suction of the pistons to "draw" in your charge, it is helped. There is probably a long drawn out mathmatical equasion only engineers could figure out, but it has been around for a while in practice. Look at Ram-Air effect. Any positive pressure BEFORE the throttle body is helpful. Look at the parasitic loss of the intake stroke. If that can be cut by 30%, that is by itself worth some gain in HP. Granted the "Little leafblower that could" is a wee bit underpowered, I believe it could still achieve what the ram-air does at 55MPH from standstill conditions. Just my humble $0.02...
roots blowers operate under the same idea as one of these electric fans.
Someone actually took a m62 eaton blower, strapped 2 starter motors to it, and a trunk full of capacitor type batteries and made 9psi of boost on a toyota 4cyl.
The leafblower video on the honda, on the dyno, was true, it actually did make about 5% more horsepower because of that leafblower. They also sprayed nitrous into the leaf blower making an extra 40 hp or something.
a ROOTS blower is incredibly different. http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...ts_type_supercharger is how a roost blower works. it is a positive displacement air pump, if the roots blower is not turning you get no air to your engine or a incredibly restrictive air restriction. a centrifugal blower is like what you are talking about. a set of fins that spin and throw the air to the outside. ROOTS blowers are way WAY different animals and nothing like a leaf blower or bilge fan with a supercharger sticker slapped on it.
Definitely true about the "Roost" blower (sorry had to snicker on that typo). If you cover the inlet to a leafblower or turbo, power will drop. If you cover the inlet to a roots type, it will suck the skin off your hand! The roots was designed for the Detroit Diesel (most common application 6-71). The detroit is a 2 stroke diesel and if the engine "runs away" (0- unlimited RPM) there is a flap that covers the intake called an emergency shut-off. I had one that actually sucked the oil from the crankcase THROUGH the blower seals and threw a rod anyway. As they say "THAT SUCKS!!!". Commercial steam cleaning companies use a roots (stanley Steemer, etc).
------------------ carpe diem
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08:00 PM
Fieroseverywhere Member
Posts: 4242 From: Gresham, Oregon USA Registered: Mar 2006
With a "blow through" design like it is made for, it can actually work. Consider this; first of all, it is before the throttle body therefore the MAP is not fooled. When the throttle plate opens, the positive pressure can make the engine think it is getting more air (thus more fuel due to the MAP). The more you open your throttle plate, the more air will flow depending on pressure. Now instead of relying on the suction of the pistons to "draw" in your charge, it is helped. There is probably a long drawn out mathmatical equasion only engineers could figure out, but it has been around for a while in practice. Look at Ram-Air effect. Any positive pressure BEFORE the throttle body is helpful. Look at the parasitic loss of the intake stroke. If that can be cut by 30%, that is by itself worth some gain in HP. Granted the "Little leafblower that could" is a wee bit underpowered, I believe it could still achieve what the ram-air does at 55MPH from standstill conditions. Just my humble $0.02...
Exactly.
Electric superchargers have a more noticable effect at lower RPM's because the amount of boost is constant. They also allow the engine to breath easier by creating a positive pressure in the intake. The engine WILL get more air. How much of a difference it makes depends on the engine and intake setup. They will work with conventional turbos and superchargers also but programing issues will come up. You can reduce turbo lag also.
Keep in mind there are several types of electric superchargers.
Sorry but the e-ram is also a scam. There is no way the thing can do what they claim. it has a cheap plastic fan they claim will run at 23,500 rpm and draw over 60 amps. Really? how are they magically getting 60 amps down that 14 gauge wire on it? at 60 amps it needs at least 4 gauge wire and that stuff is massive. also how are they keeping a cheap plastic impeller from warping at insane speeds. generating 1 PSI at the flow rate that the fiero engine would use even at 3500RPM would snap that plastic fan or warp it so bad it will kill it's self fast. Oh and stacking fans like that does not work you get a 25% increase in flow and no pressure increase when you stack fans so their high end model that simply has two attached back to back is really high priced junk.
anything short of a Turbo compressor mounted to a custom high rpm motor is pure fake junk designed to seperate you from your money. There is an electric turbine supercharger out there that does work, it's very expensive and is harder to install than a regular Turbo or a belt driven turbine supercharger.
[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 09-14-2007).]
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09:47 PM
PFF
System Bot
Austrian Import Member
Posts: 3919 From: Monterey, CA Registered: Feb 2007
Yea, the electric superchargers, aka "e-Ram" don't really work and are a restriction if anything. They cannot supply the RPM, or compression necessary.
Someone on my other car forum either tried it for fun, or linked a page that did. They dynoed the "e-RAM" and found out that it significantly reduced horsepower IIRC 30-40hp.
I've seen the leafblower clip, and I'm still surprised that it worked. I think the leafblower has either more power, or compresses the air better. Made me think of actually having a setup with an aux. leafblower. I doubt it would be fuel efficient though. :P
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10:36 PM
Austrian Import Member
Posts: 3919 From: Monterey, CA Registered: Feb 2007
You know the thing I don't get? They have lots of magazines reviewing that product. Does that mean that none of these magazines are credible and can be bought? Also, the race wins. I'm assuming that the car made so much power paired with drivers skill that they could have used the "e-Ram" as an antenna ball and they still would have won.
-M
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11:11 PM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 16115 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Moving and compressing enough air to produce boost would require 10-15Hp to run the supercharger. A plastic play toy such as you see on Ebay is a sad attempt to fool the uneducated buyer. If you want inexpensive real boost, buy a good used turbo (sized properly) and plumb it in.
------------------ 87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds 2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress Engine Controls, PCM goodies, re-programming & odd electronics stuff " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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11:47 PM
Sep 15th, 2007
Fieroseverywhere Member
Posts: 4242 From: Gresham, Oregon USA Registered: Mar 2006
Yea, the electric superchargers, aka "e-Ram" don't really work and are a restriction if anything. They cannot supply the RPM, or compression necessary.
Someone on my other car forum either tried it for fun, or linked a page that did. They dynoed the "e-RAM" and found out that it significantly reduced horsepower IIRC 30-40hp.
I've seen the leafblower clip, and I'm still surprised that it worked. I think the leafblower has either more power, or compresses the air better. Made me think of actually having a setup with an aux. leafblower. I doubt it would be fuel efficient though. :P
1: An air cleaner creates a small restriction. Does this mean that it is enough to make a difference? The e-ram is 3.75" in diameter which means that is can go up to about a 3" diameter intake tube without creating any restriction.
2: Dyno results cant tell you much because dynos dont measure low end torque. That does not mean that don't work. The fact that they show results at all on a dyno is proof that they work.
3: Electric superchargers are made to work in short bursts. Boost is created by pressure. These do not create much if any pressure. They increase the intake velosity until the engines power overtakes that velosity. This is why they don't work very well on high RPM motors. Too much air velosity for it to be effective. They don't compress air much, mainly they move it.
4: Leaf blower, same concept. Fuel efficiancy will only depend on how much you use it.
Now they dont increse the HP to anywhere near what a turbo or supercharger can. They are not made to work like that. With a slight positive pressure everything runs more efficiently, the load on the engine is lightened until the engine speed overtakes what the fan can put out. The effect is also less on higher cubic inch motors because more air is needed. That is why e-ram stackes it. It is only for higher Cu/in motors that its needed. Stacking it is kind of pointless since it would do better to run them parallel. Two fan moving the same air is much less effective that two fans moving their own air.
A turbo spins very fast; most peak between 80,000 and 200,000 RPM (using low inertia turbos, 150,000-250,000 RPM) depending on size, weight of the rotating parts, boost pressure developed and compressor design.Turbos don't give you tq, they give HP.
The term supercharging technically refers to any pump that forces air into an engine - but in common usage, it refers to pumps that are driven directly by the engine as opposed to turbochargers that are driven by the pressure of the exhaust gases. They add lots of torque and HP.
An electric super charger spins at a constant rate of speed (max) all the time it is being used. Only spinning at 23000 RPM wont net you anywhere near a turbo or super charger for boost. This does not mean that they don't work. They just work differently. When not is use everything is the same as normal. They give you torque and very little HP.
The best way to measure these is to take your PSI at idle. That is the max PSI of the unit. The e-bay crap will make 2-3 PSI at idle which equates to almost nothing off of idle. The e-ram will make 5-8 at idle and the effect will last a little longer. The thomas knight one will go above 10.
Because they are placed before the sensors everything else functions like normal. More fuel is added to compensate to the added air by the ECM without and changes to the chip. As long as the ECM fuel table can handle it.
They are not a high performance mod as marketing would lead you to believe. If your lucky you'll get what a good intake, exhaust, and tune up can get you. They will increase the performance and the fun factor for a decent price without having to do any permanent mods to the car.
Theoretically one of these used with nitrious could produse close to or even more power then a conventional supercharger or turbocharger. Tuning would be difficult though. Another theory is that it could work well with a 3.4 using the stock fiero intake by helping to overcome that inherant breathing problems.
[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 09-15-2007).]
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12:24 AM
fierosound Member
Posts: 15253 From: Calgary, Canada Registered: Nov 1999
Driving a supercharger or powering a turbo sufficiently to produce boost requires power. That is why both use engine power. If you research autmotive history of the 1960's there was only one company who made a supercharger that did produce boost that was not driven by engine power. It was a company by the name of Turbonique of Orlando Fla. Their designs used miniature turbine engines that were powered by a separate oxygen and fuel supply system. . I believe the fuel was Butyl Nitrate. The units did produce lots of boost but bearing life was short and the units proved very unreliable and dangerous. A final attempt was made to make the system less dangerous by powering the turbines using disposable cartridges. However, once you pulled the pin and they were set off, there was no way to stop the 15 seconds of boost. After about two years the firm went belly up and so did the idea of a self powered supercharger. No one has attempted one since. Now we see people selling electric blower fans on eBay as superchargers. If they did work don't you believe that the automakers would use the idea?
------------------ 87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds 2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress Engine Controls, PCM goodies, re-programming & odd electronics stuff " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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11:01 AM
Fieroseverywhere Member
Posts: 4242 From: Gresham, Oregon USA Registered: Mar 2006
Auto makers wont use the idea because the general public does not want a small amount of power at the push of a button. Most people are stuck in thier normal pattern and are completely resistant to change. Electric powered superchargers have been around for over 30 years. Most races wont allow modifications like this and since the application is so limited they probably will never become a mainstream product. The exception would be if someone came up with a small, lightweight electric motor that could spin to 100,000 rpm without using more power then the car can put out. There just isn't much of a market for them. None of this means that they dont work. If an electric motor can power an entire car there is no reason they cannot up the intake pressure a little and make a small difference when wanted. You just have to take them for what they are, a small, easy performace increase that is relatively cost effective. If you want real power go with a conventional turbo or supercharger. If you want a little more power without effecting the normal drivability of the motor or gas mileage in any way then these will work for you purpose. Of course nitrious costs about the same and will give you a much better increase. A 15 sec burst is all they are good for which is enough for a 1/4 mile run or a quick jump off the line. They are just not a major performance upgrade but they DO work for what they were designed for.
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11:22 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
The leafblower video on the honda, on the dyno, was true, it actually did make about 5% more horsepower because of that leafblower.
Yes it made slightly more power, But it has nothing to do with "Boost". "Boost" is compressed air. A fan or leafblower cage does not and cannot compress air. The reason that the Honda made more power is because of flow increase. It does the same as the sonic-tuned intakes. To better explain it, look at how the air/fuel gets into the cylinder. The piston moves down and creates a pressure differential. When the intake valve opens, the air/fuel flows into the cylinder until the piston hits bottom. (no more displacement, no more flow) The thing is the amount of air/fuel that flows into the cylinder only fills the area displaced by the piston. Using the 2.8L as an example, It would flow in 466 cc's of air/fuel into a single cylinder. The valve closes and then 466 cc's are compresed by a factor of 8.9 (compression ratio) then it is ignited and the energy pushes the piston.
Now say you sonic tune the intake or hooked up a fan, Now the air/fuel has a little velocity potential to it. So when the intake opens the air/fuel flows in, But when the piston hits bottom, The sonic pulse or the fan is still pushing air. This fills the 51cc's of the cylinder head volume. So now you have the 466 cc's of displacement AND the 51cc's from the head chamber filled with the air/fuel making a total of 517 cc's to be compressed by the same factor. More cc's of air/fuel means more power. So now the engine is flowing 3.1L of air/fuel instead of the stock 2.8L.
The air in the cylinder is NOT compressed, It is still at the same atmosphereic level, But you are utilizing the max volume of the cylinder AND the head chamber volume. (Engine displacement is based/rated by the volume displaced by the pistons, not max volume of a cylinder and head.)
This is the basic principle for "Ram Air" scoops as well. If the air coming in is cooler and has a bit of velocity potential being pushed because the car is traveling at 60mph, the velocity carries into the cylinders, It will fill the head chamber up creating a slight increase in power. Again the air/fuel is NOT compressed. It is just maximizing the total volume of the cylinder AND head chamber.
The only problem with the fans is that the at the higher RPM's many of the electric motors can't keep up with the velocity of all cylinders spinning at 4000 revs per minute. The reason being if you block the flow of a fan, Since it cannot compress the air, The air builds up and adds drag to the fan. It will slow down. Then when the intake valve opens it has to build up it's max RPM before the valve can shut. An engine at 4000 rpm's has an inatke valve opening 2000 times or every .03 seconds. I don't know of a axial fan that can recover that quick. So even though the fan might be rated at say 300cfm, It will not be running at maximum RPM thus reducing velocity. If it cannot recover the RPM's quickly and the engine requires more CFM then the fan can provide, it becomes a restriction as well.
If you own a leaf blower, cover the out put with your had. Once you hear the RPM's drop remove your hand. You'll notice you can hear the RPM's increase. If you can hear it come up to max RPM, then it is way too slow to get max RPM in .03 seconds.
The reason it seems to work better on "economy" engines is because the lower compression engines have a larger head chamber volume, Hence more volume that can be filled.
Finally, A leaf blower fan will give a slight increase in performance but it does NOT create boost. Any auction on Ebay that claims they compress air or increase boost with an electric fan is wrong. Technically it is false adverstising.
------------------ Happiness isn't around the corner... Happiness IS the corner. ZZ4 Powered !!
[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 09-15-2007).]
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11:23 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Now we see people selling electric blower fans on eBay as superchargers. If they did work don't you believe that the automakers would use the idea?
quote
Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere:
Auto makers wont use the idea because the general public does not want a small amount of power at the push of a button.
Actually they do utilize the science behind it. The sonic tuned intakes or variable-vaned intakes combined with variable cam timing do the same thing as the electric fans, It aids in filling the head chamber volume. Anyone ever wonder how Honda's production performance engines are always normally aspirated and yet make good power?? The use sonic tuning and max flow to get the best power out of the engine. If I recall Honda has never had a production car that was turbo-charged or supercharged from the factory. (Yes their professional race engines do use forced induction.) I mean how many other car companies have a normally aspirated 2.0L engine producing 240 horsepower?? Most 4-cylinder engines getting more than 200hp are using forced induction.
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11:38 AM
Fieroseverywhere Member
Posts: 4242 From: Gresham, Oregon USA Registered: Mar 2006
You explain it so much better then I can. The e-ram works on this basic principle also and uses a jet turbine type of design. Granted it is only a 1.2hp electric motor capable of flowing 800cfm unloaded (1600 when wired in parallel using twin intake tubes). Stacking them as e-ram does only helps the resistance to drag and does not increase the flow any.
My question would be how much does the 2.8 flow, cfm wise, at 6000 rpm? Less then 800 I would imagine.
I would guess that you would see the biggest increase in power using the 2.5. With its lower redline the effect would be more noticable throughout the rpm range.
I just think calling them electric superchargers was a mistake in itself. People immediately want to compare them to a conventional supercharger. They do not work on the same principle and cannot be compared directly.
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12:02 PM
PFF
System Bot
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
My question would be how much does the 2.8 flow, cfm wise, at 6000 rpm? Less then 800 I would imagine.
2.8L = 173 cubic inches at 6000 rpm flows 300 cfm. With a fan like the E-Ram it is flowing about 328cfm at 6000 rpm. That is utilizing the head chamber volume. The E-Ram works on the same principle, But the cheap blower motor fans they sell on Ebay are much less torque and less cfm. The torque of the fan motor is what will decide how much slower it will spin the fan when the drag increases.
[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 09-15-2007).]
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12:37 PM
tjm4fun Member
Posts: 3781 From: Long Island, NY USA Registered: Feb 2006
is a typical price, so the average price of an ebay auction is cheaper. will file that away for the next time the motor goes.
anyone wanting to play around with that on a small 2,3 or 4 cylinder and not wanting to drop big bucks, you could pop for this: http://www.defender.com/pro...775|732133&id=714123 inline easy to mount, 235 cfm. and cheap. report back on if it works. with dyno sheets.
I don;t see those cfm claims being real as the the ebay charger listed is exactly like the 150 cfm jabsco unit, right down the square flange. for ref: http://www.defender.com/pro...775|732133&id=835433
ok, my chuckle for today is over. go back to arguing!
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01:13 PM
Fieroseverywhere Member
Posts: 4242 From: Gresham, Oregon USA Registered: Mar 2006
2.8L = 173 cubic inches at 6000 rpm flows 300 cfm. With a fan like the E-Ram it is flowing about 328cfm at 6000 rpm. That is utilizing the head chamber volume. The E-Ram works on the same principle, But the cheap blower motor fans they sell on Ebay are much less torque and less cfm. The torque of the fan motor is what will decide how much slower it will spin the fan when the drag increases.
So it should even show a small result on a 2.8 at redline. Is it worth 300 dollars for the minimal result? Guess only the buyer can decide. On a motor with a lower redline or upper end breathing problems such as the 4.9 it could have a much bigger result. Any comments on this? I might be willing to try out the e-ram to prove the working concept. I am building a custom short ram cold air intake for the 4.9 anyway and it wouldn't be any more work to add it to the system. I've done some port work and am using a bigger cam with it also. I could test it out and return it if it doesn't work. What do you guys think?
[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 09-15-2007).]
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06:16 PM
Fieroseverywhere Member
Posts: 4242 From: Gresham, Oregon USA Registered: Mar 2006
Alright, I've been thinking. Since the only way to actually prove or dis-prove this is to try it, I will do just that. Since I have access to many different fieros and many other vehicles with a many different engine/transmissions configurations, it only makes sense. I will buy one of the E-ram units and test it out on the following configurations...
2.5 auto 2.5 manual (both isuzu & 84 4.10 and 3.32 and 85-86 4 speed) 2.8 auto 2.8 manual (3.65 4 speed and FWD getrag) 2.8-3.1 built manual (getrag) 2.8-3.4 built manual (3.65 4 speed) 4.9 manual (88 isuzu)
Other possible tests could include...
88 2.8 with 4t60 non electronic Harley Fatboy with cam an lots of performance goodies Harley sportster stock Opel GT with 400ci SBC (turbo 400 tranny)
This should give a very complete range of motors tested and give some good comparisons to go off of. I have access to all the different year fieros except 87's. The 2.5's will be the toughest since I don't quite know how I would mount it to this engine yet. If you have ideas please let me know.
Obviously it will take some time to get everything together and even more to test everything completely. I also cant promise Dyno results for all configurations but can promise it for the harleys, 4.9 and at least one 2.8. I will try my hardest to get results for all of them. For only 300-600 dollars for the E-ram plus the cost of the Dynos (Harley ones are free) it will be worth it to put this to bed for good. I will create a thread and post the results as I get them. Maybe I can even talk the shop owner into trying one on one of the sprint cars just to get a really high HP motor in there aswell. Wanna help me put an end to this arguement once and for all?
EDIT: If anyone would like to see them I have pics of almost all of the cars that I am going to test it out on. Let me know and I'll post them for you.
[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 09-15-2007).]
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08:01 PM
Austrian Import Member
Posts: 3919 From: Monterey, CA Registered: Feb 2007
Fieroseverywhere. That would be awesome. A lot of effort, but it would be worth the independent testing. I'm willing to predict many other car forums will then come here for reference and looking at impartial test results.
-M
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11:03 PM
frankenfiero1 Member
Posts: 441 From: maryville TN USA Registered: Oct 2006
Looks like the little leafblower that could sparked WWIII! Well, let me stir a little more poop, how about the K&N advertisements of HP increase? True they might flow a little better at high RPM (if they are ABSOLUTELY CLEAN), but what about low end torque? Isn't torque a part of the HP equasion? It's kinda like AMPS and VOLTS. Einstien could have a feild-day with this thread... Sincerely The Rabble Rouser...
------------------ carpe diem
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11:06 PM
Sep 16th, 2007
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
how about the K&N advertisements of HP increase? True they might flow a little better at high RPM (if they are ABSOLUTELY CLEAN), but what about low end torque? Isn't torque a part of the HP equasion? It's kinda like AMPS and VOLTS. Einstien could have a feild-day with this thread... Sincerely The Rabble Rouser...
Yes horsepower is just a factor of torque and RPM. Just like watts is a factor of volts and current. If one of the base readings change the factor will change. The claim by K&N that it can gain some horsepower isn't because of a torque increase, It's because of flow at the upper RPM range, thus allowing the engine to rev slightly better. Practically all engines will have a point in the upper RPM range where things start to become a restriction. Things like intake design, throttle body size, and even air filter design can cause flow to restrict as the RPM's increase. With K&N their claim is that a paper element air filter cannot flow as well at the higher RPM's as their filters.
So if the paper air cleaner you are using does in fact restrict a little at high RPM's and the K&N can reduce the restriction, you gain a little more flow and a higher useable RPM, creating more power. Obviously the amount of gain is based on how much the stock air filter is actually restricting at the upper RPM range. Some cars it does restrict a very noticable amount and some cars there is barely any difference. Which is also why they make kits to change out the air filter housing and ducting for vehicles that have a high restricting air filter system.
[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 09-16-2007).]
Actually they do utilize the science behind it. The sonic tuned intakes or variable-vaned intakes combined with variable cam timing do the same thing as the electric fans, It aids in filling the head chamber volume. Anyone ever wonder how Honda's production performance engines are always normally aspirated and yet make good power?? The use sonic tuning and max flow to get the best power out of the engine. If I recall Honda has never had a production car that was turbo-charged or supercharged from the factory. (Yes their professional race engines do use forced induction.) I mean how many other car companies have a normally aspirated 2.0L engine producing 240 horsepower?? Most 4-cylinder engines getting more than 200hp are using forced induction.
They make good power because the rev to 8000 RPM and are cammed for it. The Duke could make some good power, too, if it was cammed higher than 2500 RPM.
There are loads of engines out there of the same and smaller displacement that make more torque than they do. The Duke at least makes the same torque as the S2000 engine. Horsepower is a very vacuous term when its not in context of an RPM. If you take two engines with the same power the one with the largest area under the torque curve will always win.
Honda can have all the power it wants but its a craptastic engine if it couldnt move out of its own way from a dead stop.
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02:03 AM
Sep 18th, 2007
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
A roots blower DOES NOT compress air in the blower, it stacks air inside the intake manifold to make "boost". A turbo/csc also do not make boost, they just push air in faster than the motor can use it.
A screw type "compressor" blower, makes boost insdie the case of the blower, and then outputs air at a higher pressure.
So technicly, the electric fan blowers are no different than a roots blower, a roots blower just happens to move a stupidly large amount of air per revolution, and easily overcomes the air used by the motor. A plastic fan inside a housing, is never ever going to be capable of moving a decent amount of air, the fan will start cavitatiing on even a lawnmower engine at wide open...
I would bet that those fans in the intake are better at making power in the form of eletricity if they are turned off.
