Hi

I'm planning to get myself a GT soon, and I could use some help with modifying the car. My goals
are to build a mid 13 second car that pulls around 1g through the corners, with *daily driven*
reliability. Oh, and the car will most definitely be a standard.

Your help with this will be greatly appreciated!!

So, focusing solely on the powertrain - what is the most affordable, reliable and also quickest/
easiest way to achieve these results? I'd like to stay away from anything too complex, and I
also don't want to use NOS. (And of course I will upgraded the clutch to handle the extra
power.)

I'm looking to spend no more than $2,500 on the powertrain (including paying for labor at a
good shop).

Can you PLEASE help me with this... I have read through so many posts already, my head is
spinning. I just need some good simple feedback to come up with a plan to make this happen.

Thanks!

-Mike

You better get yourself a bigger budget or do more of the work yourself, the $2500 isn't going to cut it for what you want. Sorry to bring you back to reality. The closest I thing you can come to, in the performance you want, without breaking the bank too bad, is a 3.4 DOHC, but like I said above, be prepared to do most of the work yourself. Welcome to the forum by the way.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 05-05-2004).]

Form my understanding the 3.8 SC is the most bang for your buck, you can get a high 13's car from a stock motor. INto the twelves with pulley swaps and various small upgrades. Although i don't think you can do this swap for 2500 including the purchase of the engine, I've done a quad 4 swap it's good for high 14's stock (i hope at sealevel) and i have spent a large amount of money about 2500 CAN so far, teh worst part(being the most expensive) was rodney dickmans stuff for the transmission, HTe 3.4 TDC bolts up to the fiero transaxle and they would put you in high 13's low 14's stock I would think.

------------------
Calgary - August 1, 2004 Fiero Fiesta
@ SouthCenter Mall

[This message has been edited by Comealongway (edited 05-05-2004).]

I don't know whether to laugh hysterically or shake my head in disbelief at what you are attempting to accomplish with that many constraints. I tell you what. If you want to hit the 13s w/ only $2500 in the powertrain, do this. DON'T buy a Fiero. Buy a sport bike. A 600cc Suzuki GSX-R does 10s right out the box. I'm sure you could pick up a '00 bike for about $4-$6k.

------------------
-jason
'87SE
'88GT (5spd)
'90GTZ

Hi

Sorry for the formatting mess ;-)

Thanks for the responses so far (well most of them), and I don't think what I'm trying
to do is in any way unreasonable. Taking a 2500lb car that already runs about a 16
flat in the 1/4 into the 13's isn't a huge leap, and should be very achieveable on a
budget.

You can do it easily with so many other cars (hell even Hondas), why not a Fiero.

I also don't have a garage or any tools, otherwise I'd probably attempt to do an
engine swap or the engine work myself.

If you don't think this can be done with $2,500, what would it take -- reasonably?

Your opinion and any info you've got is appreciated!

Thanks,
Michael

Maybe start getting some tools and some mechanic buddys, off to the salvage yard.

To drop 3 second from 16 to 13,s takes about 300 to 400 hp extra from base and $2500 will not cut it unless you get the parts free and cheap labor

quote Originally posted by Blaze: Thanks for the responses so far (well most of them), and I don't think what I'm trying to do is in any way unreasonable.

YES! I'm the unwanted response. ^-^ Excellent. But, seriously, a sport boike will be the easiest route since you only want to invest $2500 in the engine. How much do you plan on investing in the suspension to get close to that 1g? Ok. Assuming this GT has a 5spd w/ a good clutch, a turbo kit alone will go for around $3k. This DOESN'T include strenghtening the bottom end to reliably handle the added HP. Nor does it include the cost of installing the turbo. Since you have NO garage and NO tools, you are at the mechanic's mercy, so expect to shell out the big bucks on someone w/ experience.... Next up, Fieros are getting older all the time. You can't install a turbo kit onto an original 2.8l and NOT to expect problems. A rebuilt motor will run you ATLEAST $2k (short block from Autozone is round $1200-$1500 - heads still need to be rebuilt). You could rebuild the motor yourself with some modest machine shop fees if you, you know, had tools and a place to work....

quote Originally posted by Blaze: Taking a 2500lb car that already runs about a 16 flat in the 1/4 into the 13's isn't a huge leap, and should be very achieveable on a budget.

Actually, a V6 GT weights about 2700-2800lbs. Maybe a Formula or a bone-stock Iron Duke weights around 2500lb, but not a V6 GT.

quote Originally posted by Blaze: You can do it easily with so many other cars (hell even Hondas), why not a Fiero.

Hondas weigh less than Fieros, hence less HP they have to produce. Oh yeah, I imagine the TONS of support Hondas have drives the price down on parts.... Still, there parts are pricey compared to SBCs.

quote Originally posted by Blaze: I also don't have a garage or any tools, otherwise I'd probably attempt to do an engine swap or the engine work myself.

Riiiigggghhhhtttt. $2500 cap on an engine budget? Ain't gonna happen, buddy. That would probably get you an engine rebuild and maybe a valve job (not sure if you'd have enough $$ left over to address the intake and/or exhaust manifolds).

quote Originally posted by Blaze: If you don't think this can be done with $2,500, what would it take -- reasonably?

Let's say you get a 3.4l from a Camaro. Perhaps the easiest upgrade of them all. You'd still need to fix the intake and exhaust. You'll also need a beefier cam, because the Camaro's are too weak. Pay someone to do the work... you are looking around $3k (anyone have a better estimate???) That includes a low-mile motor from a JY (if they even exist), cam, and some monkey w/ wrenches to toss it in. With that, you'd probably be low 15s... upper 14s if you are lucky. Turbo on top of that... about another $3-5k... depending on HP output. Again, other monkey w/ wrenches to install & upgrade ECM & fuel delivery system... $1000 to $1500 to install (I'm assuming you want a good shop to do this upgrade - anyone have a better estimate???). Ok! So, you are looking @ $7k to $9500 out the door w/ engine and a few misc. stuff to get the system to work right. Might have enough money to upgrade the suspension & cradle (assuming it is a pre-88).

So, with all that said and done, you'll have a reliable 12 to 13 second Fiero for about $8k (good middle-of-the-road estimate) plus the cost of the GT on top of that. Why? If you want speed and reliablity, seriously, get a GSX-R for $4k and do 10 second 1/4 mile runs all day and all night. Either that, or set aside much more money can put in a 3800 SC or a SBC.

------------------
-jason
'87SE
'88GT (5spd)
'90GTZ

Put in a 3.4 yourself. That will run you over 1000. Then upgrade your ignition and fuel systems. Thats another few hundered. Install a wet nitrous system with 75hp jets. (another few hundred) Learn to drive/launch your car. (Free + gas)

Go to the track, run 13s easy. Have fun..

BTW, I wouldn't use NOS either, I went with NX and turned 14s on my stock 2.8.

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 05-05-2004).]

Just get a series II 3800 supercharged motor and you are in the 13's swap out stock pulley and you will be in the low 13's to high 12's that is with a 5 speed tranny.

How would I know????? done it !

To start you off... buy the one in the mall for $600 <? you are almost half way there. use left over for the suspension/ tires !

Be nice to some racers around your town and one may help ya with tools and such, or look up a fiero club where ever you are.

ha ha buy a cycle

------------------

98 3800SC GTP motor,3.4 pulley, Getrag 5sp.
custom hood, trunk, side scoops, IRM front spoiler, 17" excel's , dk.Shadow Grey

[This message has been edited by revin (edited 05-05-2004).]

Use some rope and tie your car to an F16

------------------
VOTE FOR THE FIERO!

Black '87 GT Auto - Daily Driver & Autocrosser
Eibach springs, Koni shocks, Kosei K1s, Kumho Ecsta V700s, poly bushings, rear swaybar, MSD ignition, shift-kit, custom intake scoop

quote Originally posted by Blaze: Hi Sorry for the formatting mess ;-) Thanks for the responses so far (well most of them), and I don't think what I'm trying to do is in any way unreasonable. Taking a 2500lb car that already runs about a 16 flat in the 1/4 into the 13's isn't a huge leap, and should be very achieveable on a budget. You can do it easily with so many other cars (hell even Hondas), why not a Fiero. I also don't have a garage or any tools, otherwise I'd probably attempt to do an engine swap or the engine work myself. If you don't think this can be done with $2,500, what would it take -- reasonably? Your opinion and any info you've got is appreciated! Thanks, Michael

To go from 16 to 13 is alot more than you think. You can't "do it with Honda's". The average Honda on the street is only running high 14's to low 15's. A turbo kit for just about any car is $2000-$2500 by itself. For $2500 you won't be able to do much if you have someone else do the work. Most shops charge at least $1500 in labor just to swap the same engine. Now you want a shop to swap a custom engine into the car which is more work? You can find a place that will install a 3.4L which only gets you to low 15's high 14's but your looking at $3000-$3500. You should plan on spending closer to $5000. Get a 3800SC, change the pulley and your done. The lightest Fiero was the 1984 base coupe and it weighed 2450lbs dry (no fluids)
anything with a V-6 is at least 2650lbs. Not to mention going to a larger engine like a 3800SC adds some more weight. But with the 3800SC you looking at 240-280hp.

Or he could build a steam catapult from Navy surplus parts, or participate in the Navy's terrorist Catch and Release program...
All kidding aside, find a buddy with a garage. Start haunting the local wrecker company auctions in the largest nearby city. Do research; find out what the going prices are for the parts you need, and find out what engines and transaxles are compatible. If you start networking and develop contacts in the used parts business (wrecker companies and salvage yards) and start checking the local sale papers, bargains can be found. BE PATIENT, and keep money available, so you can jump on any deals you find. It does you no good to find bargains if they get away because you didn't have the cash. I think your goals ARE achievable if you are patient (and lucky; as an example, I almost spent a hundred bucks on a hood; I found one on Ebay, for 15 bucks; a great guy named Harry on the Yahoo Fiero forum saved me 75 bucks on shipping by picking it up in Orlando and bringing it to me at Ed Parks' swap meet in Alabama). Make a plan of attack for this project, and stick to it as closely as you can.
All that having been said, I don't see you being able to pay someone to do the work and still stay within the budget you've outlined.

a 4.9L Caddy swap would be about your best bet for it and Low 14's would more than likely be the result. If you are going to do the work yourself then the $2500 would be possible, but If you are unable to do anything yourself, you are looking at $4k minimum. I commend your goal as it is an Awsome target. You will however find it very hard to achive. I am doing the work myself on my 4.9l Swap, starting with a $500 car and swapping stuf I have/had for parts and I will be well under that mark but again Im doing the labor myself.

pm sent

------------------

what bout a turbo kit arent those like 2500bux? supposedly you can bolt that kit on i cant remember the website.....

------------------

My car is for sale if anyone is interested pm me

Just to add to the weight of a v6 fastback GT. my friend works at a big rig shop, pulled my car on the scales last night just to see what the weight really is. the scales were acurate +/- 10lbs. My car weighed 2870.

Ron

------------------

quote Originally posted by fiero_gt: Just to add to the weight of a v6 fastback GT. my friend works at a big rig shop, pulled my car on the scales last night just to see what the weight really is. the scales were acurate +/- 10lbs. My car weighed 2870. Ron

your car needs a diet

Thanks for all the responses everyone! I appreciate it.

However, I thought this car had more performance potential than this -- without breaking the
bank. Oh well.

Maybe I'm just better off with another Mustang or an import car. Or perhaps I can find
one that's already been modified, as I should be able to get it much cheaper than doing
it myself.

Hmmmm...

-Mike

P.S. A quick FYI: I got my stats on a 4 spd GT's weight out of an old 1986 Road and
Track mag... according to them this car weighs 2570lbs. Just thought I'd add that so
you don't think I was just opening my mouth without any facts to back it up.

watch ebay. people try to sell cars they couldn't finish all the time. then spend 2500 on whatever they didn't do.

For 8K, I'd just do a what Revin did or simply a V8, if you scrounge around for inexpensive parts, you can do it yourself for under 10K, mine wasn't that cheap though.

By the way, anybody want to see more pics of Revin's car, or YOU for that matter Revin. Sorry, no pictures of the engine I don't think.

Go to fiero.homeip.net
Sorry it's a little slow (unlike Revins and my car) it's only 384 K upstream of my cable line at home.
Ok Revin, so I didn't take my Formula to the show. It's alive though, has about 100 miles on it, just working out a vibration problem. BTW, I hardly ever use 1st gear any more, 2nd gear is more like it as long as you are not in traffic, it is just as wide a gear as 1st on a C5 vette. The SPEC stage 3 clutch handles the torque no problem.

The server has some pictures from the San Antonio, Alamo Area Fiero Owners Roundup.
Got some pics of the V8 in my Fiero also.

------------------
Carlos A. Martinez
1988 Formula 5-speed
ZZ4 w/ LT4 HOT CAM

[This message has been edited by TxFieros (edited 05-05-2004).]

quote Originally posted by ca_xtreme: what bout a turbo kit arent those like 2500bux? supposedly you can bolt that kit on i cant remember the website.....

Here is the website I think yoou were talking about:
http://www.turbochargerpower.com/turbo.htm

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Complete Fiero 2.8L / 3.1L Turbo kit for stick or automatic transmission Fieros is priced at only $2495.

Well Blaze, don't go off in a huff. I think many of us saw that you want over 1G on the skidpad and also a 13 second car. Honestly, just to get 1G on the pad, you'll be way over $2500. The Fiero has potential through the roof, but nothing is free, nor really cheap if you're looking for that kind of performance. Maybe a Mudstain might be easier to get into the 13s, but handling? Have fun with the solid rear axle. But honestly, Blaze, if you get a Fiero, you'll end up like most of us with cars that become life-long evolving projects (not a bad thing in any way!!!). I think a starting budget of $2500 is great and you should just build off of what that gets you. And for 13s, I'd say you'd want a bigger engine for it to be a comfortable daily driver, too.

Good luck and I really hope you get a Fiero, you'll like it much more than an import or Fox body as well as the community, too!

------------------
Christian Thomas
87 Pontiac Fiero GT Burgandy/Silver 5.7L ZZ4 5spd
86 Pontiac Fiero GT Red/Silver 2.8L 5spd

shouldn't a turbo kit from Dennis, ported intake/ exhuast manilfods, and some minor other mods get you high 13's. thats gotta be worth 220-240hp.

Well after reading this & my experience, you'll be real lucky to get a Fiero to 13's with $2500 in mods, PLEASE tell me you are not trying to BUY a Fiero AND make it to 13's on $2500

Where are you located? I'd be happy to help out if you're in Ohio. Your biggest problem is you want to have someone else do it. You could get a 3.4DOHC in your car for about $500(yes it can be done for that cheap), but to have someone do it would cost 3K+.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: The lightest Fiero was the 1984 base coupe and it weighed 2450lbs dry (no fluids) anything with a V-6 is at least 2650lbs. Not to mention going to a larger engine like a 3800SC adds some more weight. But with the 3800SC you looking at 240-280hp.

I know I'm going off topic here a little but I think these low weight numbers on 84's are misinformation. I swapped a Quad 4 into an 84 base coupe and the car weighs 2620 lbs without a spare tire, jack or lug wrench (that's about 40 lbs worth) Admittedly it had a full gas tank but that's only 60 lbs. I can't believe the Quad 4 is 150 lbs more than an iron duke. My 88GT on the same scales w/o the spare tire etc was about 2770 lbs.

Hey

Thanks again for all the info, you guys are great.

Anyhow, I just want to clear up a few things that were asked and may help come
up with a solution...

First of all, when I said $2,500 to take the car into the 13's I meant $2,500 spent on
the engine ONLY. Other cash will be spent on the suspension, wheels, tires and
brake upgrades.

Plus it really shouldn't be hard or too expensive to get the car handling how I want
it to. It'll be close with just stiffer lowering springs, good shocks and struts and
wider sticky tires.

Also, that $2,500 certainly doesn't include the car.

And lastly... I'm in Edmonton Alberta Canada.

Thanks again,
Mike

P.S. Any other input?

13's for $2500, including labor? Yes, it can be done. Get your 2.8 rebuilt and put a LOT of Nitrous on it.
That's about it. You *might* be able to get a used turbo kit, but that wouldn't cover labor. Heck, you'll be pushing it to have the rebuild done for under $2000.

You could try a 4.9 V8, but you'd have to do the labor yourself to get under $2500.

i dont understand why a turbo kit wont get you into the 13's. rodneys kit is $2500 and should be around 220 hp. thats 20 less than a 3800 supercharged. and they run mid low 13s. ported manifolds should get you there on a turbo car. only a little over 2500

------------------
1987 Gold SE
V6, 5spd, sunroof, 65k miles on the clock
Mods= underdrive pulley, no cat, exhaust cut out, new exhaust, accel coil, 8mm plug wires, occasionally a stage 2 jet chip, k&n filter

Please keep the ideas coming...

There's a chance I may be able to work out the labor part very inexpensively with a
buddy, so that may work. Or I may simply do the suspension and brake work first
while I save a little more for the engine swap.

Which tranny is the best out of the 4spd and the 5 spd - for strength, durability and
which matches up to swapped engines like the 3.4 DOHC and the 3800SC?

From what I've seen so far it looks like the 5 spd Getrag is the way to go, over
the 4 spd Isuzu? Isn't that 4 spd a front wheel drive tranny or are they both?

-Mike

well as far as 2500 it can be done my budget is alitttle over that though

im putting in a 3.4 DOHC

lets see engine was $200
gasket kit was
$150
racing clutch was '$350
i replaced all piston rings and wristpins and piston rod rings that was about
$150

im getting my harness done

its coming along the only thing is that its time consuming i say go with a 3.4 DOHC it bolts right up using your existing mounts but i suggest you upgrade to polyurethane thats what i did every bushing and mount is poly im getting my harness done in a week so my car will be down for about a month ive done the corvette brake swap on the front i suggest for $2500 if you do it it can be done on engine mods but.... how much will you spend on a motor?????
i got my 3.4 DOHC so cheap because the ownerof the yard i got it from is my cousin. he has 5 of them in his yard wnat one?

well its not that hard to get a motor in a fiero ive swapped a 2.8 and it sems that the 3.4 isnt much more to do granted you have to move your fuel lines and cut a hinge but as far as major work thats it im jusat not a harness guy ERIK is doing ming you should give him a holla if you want him to do your harness well enough rambling

stay tuned in one week the official thread for the exotic rida will be on from 2.8 to 3.4 fom a lil bitty 9 inch brake to 12 inches(my brakes are getting a hard on( lol but anyway do a lot of research and see what you find

quote Originally posted by sanderson: I know I'm going off topic here a little but I think these low weight numbers on 84's are misinformation. I swapped a Quad 4 into an 84 base coupe and the car weighs 2620 lbs without a spare tire, jack or lug wrench (that's about 40 lbs worth) Admittedly it had a full gas tank but that's only 60 lbs. I can't believe the Quad 4 is 150 lbs more than an iron duke. My 88GT on the same scales w/o the spare tire etc was about 2770 lbs.

Well which trans do you have? The auto's weigh about 40lbs more than the manuals. When you add all the fluids up (gas, water, oil, trans fluid, washer fliud, etc) You can add on another 85 lbs. So now your up to 2570 lbs. The base coupe is also with the skinny 13" wheels/tires, Not the 14" wheels and wider tires used on the SE version. Sunroof adds weight, Power accessories add weight of motors/solenoids, AC is a good 50 lbs, etc. You need to take into account many small things.
There are many things that can add up the weight.

hmmmm, well, the cheapest is to do all the work yourself, no doubt about it. shops are going to charge an arm and a leg to do labor, especially the custom stuff.

if you were closer, then this guy--> http://www.fastfieros.com/enginesavailable/enginesforsale.htm would be the man to talk to.

get ahold of some of the canadian fiero guys, you may find somone that can help you out.

or, you could buy a car thats had work done already, like i did. i bought a quad fiero with an engine/tranny built by Boomtastic racing. the claims of the previous owner are that is should be pushing about 225 horses. i found a site that calculates 1/4 mile time based on weight and hp. with 26-2700 lbs plugged in it should run in the low 14's. i cant wait to take it to the track and see. seat of the pants says its not too far off. along with the car, i received the installation directions that were used to put the engine in... you would haveto fabricate the mounts though.

id say that the 3.4 dohc is the way to go. if you can get one cheap, you could do the swap for under 2500, others have, and theres a guy that posted above who can get you one for cheap sooo, the options are there. GL dood, i hope you get what you're looking for. im sure others will chime in with helpful tips, hints ect

4.9 or Turbo the 2.8. Also drop some weight from the car.

My 87 did mid 13's all day long with a 75shot so I don't see why a turbo car couldn't do it.

If you do the work yourself it's doable.

If you do the work yourself, a Cadillac 4.9 should get you high 13s, and the swap can be done for $1000 if you do _everything_ yourself. I have about $5000 into my car (including the car, which I bought for $2200 cash) and I'm hoping for high 13s in the quarter. I paid Ed Parks $700 for a wiring harness, bubbajoe $190 for brackets, ignition, and some other stuff. $2500 is definitely reasonable if you do the work yourself. Guys, I don't see how being rude is going to help much. I could build a 13 second car for $2500 including the car with Kyle's $100 Fiero and my 4.9L cradle.

One more thing, Master Tuner Akimoto, I know you know your stuff, but this:
To drop 3 second from 16 to 13,s takes about 300 to 400 hp extra from base
Was that sarcastic? I have a friend with a '95 Civic EX. 120 horsepower stock, right? They run 16 flat in the quarter. To run 13s, you're telling me she would need 520 horsepower? She ran an 11.21 with just over 400 at the crank.. and that's front wheel drive with traction problems.

quote Originally posted by CTFieroGT87: Honestly, just to get 1G on the pad, you'll be way over $2500.

No way, 1 G is easy. Start with an '88 GT or Formula, make sure all the suspension parts are in good shape, buy some good R compound DOT tires, and get a good alignment. Voila, 1G on the skidpad.

A few years ago ('94? '95?) Road and Track did a skidpad challenge after the Solo II Nationals and a bunch of stock class autocross cars followed the above recipe to over 1G. None of them had any suspension modifications beyond shocks, tires, alignment, and front sway bar. There were no Fieros there that year but I know an '88 would be right in there.

If you want your car to handle, don't skimp - start with an '88.

------------------
Doug Chase
Chase Race
Custom roll cage and exhaust fabrication

my advice to do a swap on a small budget is WATCH EBAY very closely. i found a 3800 ser 2 sc motor for 200 bucks. i also found a getrag for $240 but i was outbid on that. (d*mn 56k dial up crap). if you spend about $800 on ebay you can get 3800SC with wire harness ecm trans and some accesories.

i do feel you on the budget though. every time i get a paycheck i spend as much as i can to get my car going. (bought off ebay for $415 87 4cyl 5spd)

good luck

Engine swaps are all about who you know and your timing... If you can find things for the right price at the right time... you could do a swap for way cheap...

there are people on here with 3800scII in and modded slightly for under $3000... then theres some with over $10,000

You seem to be in the same boat I was a little while back, except I had no time and no tools but plenty of $$...

A shop in town quoted me $15,000 for a 3800sc II install...(parts/labor) except they wanted me to go out and buy all the parts, and get step by step instructions on how to install... what it came down to is $7k in parts $2k-3k engine $5k-6k labor...
needless to say I will never darken their doors

I will be posting at the end of the month about my project.

good luck with whatever you choose... but my advice is performance is $$... go big or go home... (no attitude intended with that statement)