I am looking for specific recommendations from a member who has successfully licensed a V-8 Fiero in Missouri.

After checking with DMV and Highway Patrol Inspection Station, I am being told that current law will not allow ANY engine change after July 1987 unless the factory offered the specific replacement engine as an option. A conversion from 2.5L to 2.8 V-6 is OK... but not any V-8.

Rumor has it that the law can be averted by re-registering the Fiero as a Kit Car... as long as two or possibly three complete "systems" have been changed. Although I am not sure what the state considers a "system". Repeated calls to Jefferson City have gone nowhere. The people enforcing the law don't have a clue as to the details.

I know that at least one 4.5 or 4.9 Cadillac, a Northstar, and several 3.8SC V-6s are in the state, yet I have not been able to identify any of the owners.

Does anyone have personal experience in making a V-8 conversion ( or alternate larger V-6) that was ultimately licensed... or know of the correct procedure to follow?

All help is appreciated....

Kerry

Kerry,

The mechanical inspection is for safety, brakes lights etc. Most mechanics either don't know or don't care what engine is under the hood.

As far as Emission testing goes they don't even open the hood, (trunk) to look. The people running the cars for the testing I know don't have a clue anyway. They just drive (or race) the car to the machine, hopefully they can do it without wrecking your car and most can't even drive a stick to do the test.

But to avoid any possibility of problems is one of the reasons I'm staying with the V6 even thou it's a 3.4 which wasn't a option obviously.

But I do know some people who have done swaps and they just don't say anything.

Earl R.

Earl,

Thanks for the response.

Do the emmisions check station just do a sniffer test in the exaust?

I was told they use a scanner that will identify the engine from the memcal chip in the ECM. If a V8 comes up on the scanner for a VIN # that should be a V6....immediate rejection.

If it is as lax as you suggest and it is ONLY an exaust gas monitoring process, then it should be possible to slip a 4.5 Alliante Fiero under the radar....

Outside of St. Louis and K.C. It appears only a safety check is needed. Perhaps most of the successful alternate engine owners are registered in the boonies...

The only emission/engine checks we get in "suburban" Tenn are complaints from the neighbors about smoke or noise (or speed).

Then you get the opportunity to have a meaningful relationship with the legal system if they don't use some sort of peer pressure to let you see their point of view.

May be of help but other bigger V6s look identical to 2.8 (ie/ 3.1). Some larger cities usualy have their own restrictions. For example in Ohio there is no inspections, no emmissions except if you register in Hamilton (Cincy) Cyahoga (Cleveland) or Clark (Dayton) counties. So like already said, check with another country. Here anyway you dont have to register it in the county your in.

In MO it is actually a saftey inspection, but they do check to make sure the CAT and EGR systems are in place (at least some inspector's do). In St. Louis county they do an emmission check for NOX and all the other stuff.
I would try a "friendly" inspector, or maybe you can try the kit car approach.
I can tell you that technically, they can flunk the car if they want to, because the V8, 3800, Northstar or the Quad4 was never offered in the Fiero. I am sure you will hear from a V8 owner in MO who knows a way....good luck.....Paul p.s. Move to Kansas, no inspections, no emmissions, just cash for the tag.

Kerry, there's a guy in KC by the name of Buddy Craig that is running a V8 Fiero. I don't have his email addy right now, but I'll monitor this thread, and when I see a post by him on the mailing list, I'll PM you with his addy.

------------------

Mike...86 GT 4 Speed
"Sucks to be me..."

I forgot, you can e-mail the KC Fiero owners group president,Fierofreddie@aol.com, he may know of a way to register the V8....Paul

quote Originally posted by litespd: Kerry, there's a guy in KC by the name of Buddy Craig that is running a V8 Fiero. I don't have his email addy right now, but I'll monitor this thread, and when I see a post by him on the mailing list, I'll PM you with his addy.

I believe this is Buddy Craig's email address <buddycraigg@kc.rr.com>

He really helpful on the technet.

Hey Kerry. As for the scanner test, that is only for OBDII computer systems which is 96 or newer. Even if you used an OBDII control they wouldn't check since the cars are pre- 96.

------------------
87 GT Maroon w/ Silver Auto
87 Coupe Blue 5-speed
87 Coupe White Auto
86 SE Red w/ Black 3.2L w/ T-440
86 GT Gold 4-speed WrEcKeD (Should you be able to see the coolant tube and still be able to drive it?)

I am interested in this because I bought a 4.5 powered GT a couple of months ago. I have not tried to register it because I have a lot of other things I wanted to acomplish first. However, I don't think that it could be to much of a problem because I see hundreds of 30's, 40's and 50's model cars with all kinds of engine/tranny combinations on the streets, all the time. There cars didn't have there power trains "available as options" when new.
Kirk

CAPT.
The 30,40,50 and 60's cars were not subject to any emmissions laws. I know 1970 was the big year of the muscle car, hemis, 454's, 442's etc. In the 70's they started the CAT and other emmissions laws to reduce pollution. The first CAT's were very expensive $600.00 if I remember.
I think if your 4.5 is emmissions legal, you won't have any problem, a V8 with a carb and no emmissions....I would find out first before I built it. Live long and prosper..Paul

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Prince:

CAPT.
The 30,40,50 and 60's cars were not subject to any emmissions laws. I know 1970 was the big year of the muscle car, hemis, 454's, 442's etc. In the 70's they started the CAT and other emmissions laws to reduce pollution. The first CAT's were very expensive $600.00 if I remember.
Paul,
You are right about the older cars not being subject to emmisions laws. But, the original post says that "current laws do not allow and changes of engines after 1987" or something like that. I thought that what Kerry was sayng is that "any" car was subject to the new law, not just later models that had the new emmisions. My error, sorry.
Kirk

after 6-87 date is mostly 88 fieros so do a earyer car, like any 84 thru 5-87 built car
do all cars in your state have to be inspected??
in FLA it was only in bigger citys, the ones with bad air polution rates, but 5 years of improved tests and we were droped NOW so no tests at all.
MOVE or fake a move btw insurance is cheaper in rural small towns too!!
or reg it out of state

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

Thanks to all for the feedback so far, especially Paul and Litespd for the leads to Buddy Craig and Fiero Freddie.
Also, Thanks Dana for eliminating the scanner issue as a potential problem.

One clarification.
The July 87 law states that it is illegal for an engine change on ANY vehicle with an engine /chassis combination that was not offered by the manufacturer. However, they then list a variety of vehicles that are exempt from this law. One category of exempt vehicles are Pre-1971 vehicles. This is why you see older cars with any variety of engine swaps. They need only a safety inpection, even in St. Louis...no emmision inspection of any kind is required.

However, the law still applies to emmision control equiped cars built prior to 7/87. For example, an 84 Fiero could have an alternate engine installed IF the engine swap took place PRIOR to 7/87. However, that same 84 Fiero could not legally have the same alternate engine installed AFTER 7/87.

If there are other V-8 or alternate V-6 Fiero Missouri owners who have had their Fiero's inspected in K.C. or St. Louis...I would appreciate your sharing your experience.

Capt. Kirk...stay in touch so we can help each other through the registration process. I now have a '92 4.5 Allante engine to install.

Hey Archie...have you sold any V-8 kits to Missouri residents that now have their cars licensed in Missouri?

Thanks.

Kerry

Drive on a lot of dirty and muddy roads the day before test. Then when you go dont say anything. When they ask you, tell them that engines been in there for llike 10 or 15 years and it was registered all of those before you got it

Unfortunately, Thats a little hard to pull off since the engine was made in '92.... five years after the law went into effect.

The inspectors aren't Mr. GoodWrench...but they can figure out that '92 came after '87.

[This message has been edited by Kerry (edited 01-04-2003).]

BUT how do the insp know an eng's build date??
or install date???

look I had an insp tell me my merkur scorpio was FRONT WHEEL DRIVE he even put it on the rollers to load test the FRONT WHEELS after I told him it was rear drive, well that was fun!!!!!

this ain't rocket science, and most insp are not even real mech's just test tecks

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

If you can get chummy with your local mecanic's shop, they'll let is slip by. In most cases, they really don't care. The owner of the garage close to my home told me, and I quote,"if the engin bay looks nice and factory, you probably won't have anything to worry about".

88 GT Getrag 5spd/4.9 v8

[This message has been edited by Gallwin (edited 01-04-2003).]

Don H.

What you suggest WILL work for the safety inspection, but I don't trust the emmisions check station to be as helpful...

Since you live in St. Charles where the emmisions check is required, have you gotten your 4.9 to the point of getting it inspected yet?

BTW,
Would it be possible to take a look at your 88 Coupe in House Springs / High Ridge later this week?

Kerry

quote Originally posted by Butter: I believe this is Buddy Craig's email address <buddycraigg@kc.rr.com> He really helpful on the technet.

Kerry, Butter has the right email address for Buddy...just thought I'd pass that along to you.

Have you considered actually calling your local office and asking them? It's not like they have the phone tapped and will immediately arrest you. That way you can get down to the facts and stop the speculation. Tell them *exactly* what you have with every gory detail.

I suspect it will be like California (save it) and you are allowed to do swaps with engines that are the same year or newer (and 92 qualifies) provided the engine/trans combo was available in your state and you install all of the emissions equipment (usually as listed in the Mitchell's manual). If not, everyone can start bashing Missouri.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 01-04-2003).]

I had it last inspected with the 4.9 two months before IM240 was started. It hasn't been leagal in over two years, mostly because I've been in school all this time. It sat on jackstands under a car cover in my garage. As for it passing the sniffers, they don't open the hood, so they have no idea what kind of engin you have. Basicly, if it smogs clean, they're happy. My origional 4.9 setup used the stock Caddy manifolds with the single out. It ran through a gutted cat and through a dual outlet performance muffler used for an F-body. The cat was there only for visual inspection, and it passed the sniffer. However, with the new IM240 standards, I very much doubt you can squeek by with an empty cat. I'm planning on running deuls.
Oh yea, the coup, we can stet up this week. Do you have my cell#?

------------------
88 GT, 4.9 Caddy v8, Getrag 5 speed, and a whole lot more.

Don H.

Yes I have your number. Later this week sounds good.

TK,

That is where I first started. I initially contacted Troup C Missouri Hwy Patrol and explained the intent to make the engine swap. I was flatly told..."It can't be done.." and referred to the July 87 law.

I later contacted a vehicle inspection station in St. Louis, and a second Hwy Patrol inspection location for the SE Missouri region. The St. Louis emmisions check station didn't know a thing and referred me back to Troup C. "Been there ...done that."

The alternate Hwy Patrol inspection station in SE Missouri was more helpful, but referred me to Missouri DMV " Rebuilt Vehicle" office. The DMV also quoted the July 87 law and stated " It can't be done."

Whenever I raised the point that I personally knew individuals who had successfully obtained plates on vehicles with supposedly " illegal engine swaps", I was told ...more firmly..."It can't be done...! End of discussion...!"

I thought California had the most restrictive registration laws. Not true...It is Missouri.

I don't want to invest time and money into a V8 Fiero, only to be told I can't get it inspected and registered.

Kerry

Kerry,

I think your over processing this. Like Gallwin said as long as it's emission clean they're happy. Noone really cares about which engine you have unless it has NOS or something like that. Then the Safety inspectors might look a little closer. Outside of that, just don't say anything and do your inspections as normal.

Earl R.

I wonder what the authorities would say if you said to them I have a 4.5L V-8 and would like to build a kit car around it. How do I go about getting a title and registering the new car?

Then maybe there's a way to detitle the Fiero and it makes its come back as the kit car with a new title.

In order to relisense it as a kit car, you would have to apply for a new title. You would also show proof that the car is "extensivly modified to the point that little of the vehicle is left in its factory configuration". Basicly if you do a rebody on a stock frame, you can get away with it. But on a stock bodied car, I don't see it happening. Owen, I also think you are reading to much into it, if it looks factory it probaly won't be a problem. Besides, if one garage won't pass it, find one who will. Theres no limit on how many places you can have do an inspection. Just my $.2. Owen, I'de be more than happy to show ya my GT, but hehe, it's ummm well, kinda in pieces right now. Now that I'm out of college, I workin on its reassembly.

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88 GT, 4.9 Caddy v8, Getrag 5 speed, and a whole lot more.

If all a person wants to do is pass the safty inspection to run the car on the highways of the "great" state of Missouri, I doubt there is any real problem. The trouble that you get into is a legal issue, I think, where the title itself is concerned. On a Mo. title it states the number of cyl. and HP of the titled vehicle. If you register the car as a 4 or 6 cyl and then sign the bottom of the application where it says, "I varify these statements to be true under penility of law" (or the something like that) IF, and or WHEN, you are involved in an accident, or sell the car to someone else, I think that you could be opening yourself up for legal liabilities. I'm no lawyer, but the state sometimes likes to "make an example" out of people that it thinks are trying to get around the laws.
I still think that there has to be a perfectly legal way to have the car registered, AND inspected for use.
Just my opinion!
Kirk

http://www.gatewaycleanair.com/needtest/switch.htm

This is from the above website for Missouri. It's actually a bit easier than California. We're back on top! We can't go backwards on the year of the engine, only forward. Sounds like it's easy if you do it right. Don't hang up until you are clear and satisfied with the information and requirements. If the people on the phone can't do that, ask for someone else.

Call this number and disucss it with them: 1-888-748-1AIR (1247)

"Engine-switched vehicles have had the manufacturer's original certified engine configuration removed and replaced with another engine configuration.

It is a violation of both federal and state law to install an engine configuration into a vehicle chassis that is not certified by the EPA. Certified engine configurations must match either the same or newer model year as the vehicle chassis. Installing an engine that is older than the model year of the chassis is not legal. (See 11 CSR 50-2.280 (1)(A).)

All engine-switched vehicles are tested according to the model year of the chassis, which is determined from the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN). Gateway Clean Air Program personnel will not check vehicle engines before a test. If the vehicle passes its emission inspection, it can be registered. However, if the vehicle does not pass its emission test, a visual inspection will be conducted to identify any possible tampering or engine switching. If this visual inspection shows that a vehicle has an uncertified engine configuration, the vehicle cannot be registered. (See 11 CSR 50-2.280 (1)(E).)

Example: A 1976 Ford with a 1982 Ford engine will be idle tested using 1976 model year cutpoints.

Example: A 1976 Ford with a 1968 Ford engine will be idle tested using 1976 model year cutpoints. If the vehicle fails, a visual inspection will be conducted. The vehicle will need to be repaired to meet 1976 emission cutpoints. The repairs will include installing a certified engine configuration."

.....next state please.....

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 01-06-2003).]

Kerry, keep us updated on this please. The inspectors are liscensed by the state, so they can loose their certification if they pass a vehicle that is not safe.
Again, in all the counties but St.Louis it is a safety inspection, brakes, lights, horn, tires, exhaust, ball joints etc.
I had an 88 turbo without a CAT and the inspector would not pass it, he read from the state regulations that stated non of the emmissions could be tampered with.
I know in Kansas City, the tree-huggers are trying to get a law passed that all cars would have to undergo a emmissions test...Paul

Thanks to all that have contributed and those too that have criticized me for being "too concerned" about this issue.

The reason I am "too concerned" is that in 1974 I installed a '70 LT1 crate motor from Berger Chevrolet into the back seat of a 1965 Corvair Corsa Convertable.

I was subsequently stopped for speeding on Hwy 70 by Missouri Hwy patrol. He saw the engine and ran a VIN check which came up showing the car was titled as a 6 cyl.
Do you see where this is going??

I was arrested and the car was impounded on suspiction of possession of stolen parts. It took me four MONTHs to get the car back and about $350 in fines / storage costs. I had to provide a paper trail / receipt for every item used in the conversion.

That incident convinced me that you DO NOT want to drive a V8 in Missouri on a 6 cyl title.

However, I am indebted to TK for heading me in the right direction. After seeing his post I went to the Secretary of State web site and looked up the specific regulation that banned engine changes in July 1987 and found that the law had been recinded in April 2000 when the Clean Air Act went into effect....!!! ( I never thought clean air regulations would ever BENEFIT auto enthusiasts...)

As it turns out, current law is apparently much more uniform between states that have enacted the clean air act by now allowing engine changes as long as the replacment engine possesses emission equipment that is EQUAL to or NEWER than the original engine. Further, the newer engine is not held to the emission standard of the engine's year of manufacture, but rather to the chassis year of manufacture. The key is that the replacment engine must be in it's EPA approved condition with no emission control equipment removed or deactivated.

So.....many of you were right. The emission test should be a slam dunk if the engine is clean and retains all emission controls. In fact, the regulations state that the engine is never inspected UNLESS the car fails on the first test.

AND...there is no need to worry about fallout from changing a 6 cyl title to reflect a V-8 installation, since the old law is now history.

The problem I ran into apparently was the result of law enforcement and MO Dept. of Revenue personel believing the 7/87 law was in still in effect.

Funny that those who make and enforce our laws don't have a clear understanding themselves of what they write and enforce.

I would still strongly suggest that once the engine swap is done, that the title be updated to reflect that engine swap. Otherwise, your insurance company may not pay in the event of a loss or accident, (since the title information was known to be false)
OR...you may find yourself, as I did, sitting in the back of a police cruiser watching your pride and joy being hauled off to an impound lot.

Again, thanks to all...!

I hope the above information proves helpful to all contemplating a V8 or alternate engine swap.

Kerry

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Man, you folk's take that "show me" sh!t seriously!

It's hard to filter through the facts and fiction in this stuff. Out here, I finally went in and sat down with one of the BAR representatives (that blesses engine conversions, not one of the people at the inspection stations) and went over it in gory detail. After that's it's a piece of cake. You know exactly what they want, you deliver, the inspection station goes through the motions and you drive away happy.

Terry

You and I had a discusion some months back about your Corvair, I had no idea you where the same guy! As for the burocrats, they know their right, even when ther're so wrong! So, do you still have the Corvair?

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88 GT, 4.9 Caddy v8, Getrag 5 speed, and a whole lot more.

Kerry, I don't know if you got a reply from Buddy Craig, but he posted this on the mailing list:

Someone was asking about getting an inspection in saint lewis that has a
motor swap
I spoke to a friend here in KC that does kit cars.

He claims for an engine or transmission swap you need a title for your
car, and a title from the donor car. Take them both to the DMV and they
will adjust your VIN or assign a new one. The DMV may require you to
take it to the highway patrol for an inspection before.

If you have a rebody or kit car you need a MSL (don’t ask me what it is,
it’s some long multi-paged document from the body manufacture) or you
have to have a judge award you ownership of the rebodied car.

Hope this helps

Buddy
84 SE 2m8
85 GT (dead but will get a new 2.8 soon)

As Buddy said...I hope this helps...

Litespd...yes I was contacted by Buddy, but he may have misunderstood my question as he apparently thought I was building a Kit Car.

Don H. ( Gallwin)...I still have the engine and Corv-8 conversion parts, but I sold the convertable body to a Corsa member in Illinois who wanted to restore it back to original condition.

The problem with the mid-engined convertable and 370 HP with a 3.11 low gear Saginaw was that the car would leave so hard that the body would flex and unlatch the passenger side door. The door wouldn't open...just unlatch. The body just didn't have enough structural rigidity to keep from flexing under acceleration.

I thought about a full roll cage but that killed the sleeper image. Finally, I twisted a half shaft U-joint and split the differential case, racing one night up on Banshee road between Bldg 27 and Bldg 2 at what was then McDonnell Douglas.

I brought the car back in the shop and found a really cherry 66 Turbo Corsa Coupe without an engine. Both the 66 Corsa Coupe and the LT1 350 are sitting in the garage. Car has subframe installed, suspension removed, sitting on a body dolly and engine was blueprinted and in a plastic bag on an engine stand.

I am retiring in 5 months and the Corv-8 Coupe is one of the projects I hope to finish then.

Kerry

------------------

Ahh so you have too many toys, and not enough time? hehe BTW I left a VM at your work today.

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88 GT, 4.9 Caddy v8, Getrag 5 speed, and a whole lot more.

Kerry,

I little off subject, which building do you work in? I live here in Hazelwood and used to rome around those buildings at one time when I worked for Xerox as a specialist. I always liked hanging around Bldg 45 final assembly.

Earl R.

I am not a Boeing employee.

I am a Sr. Tooling Systems Enginner that was originally assigned to McDonnell Douglas on a joint project to develope methods, processes and tooling to machine 6AL4V Titanium for tactical airframe work. I have also been heavily involved in monolythic machining of Aluminum for thin wall airframe structure. I still do process improvement today for Boeing and GKN AeroSpace.

I first set foot in bldg 27 in 1976. Since then I have worked on projects in Bldg 1,2,27,66,67,101,107,113,245,276,500(now gone) and 598. Everything from F-15 / F-18 landing gear to C-17 door panels, F-22 bulkheads, AV-8 wing skins,et al...
After awhile it gets old and all starts to blend together..and I'm tired of all of it.

After 35 years of machining parts for others...I'm ready to bail out of the aircraft and racing engine industries and finish up some personal projects for a change....

Kerry

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Badges..? BADGES...????
We don gat to show yu no stinkin BADGES....!!!

Kerry, are you the same person who had the Scorpion for sale some time ago?

Thanks for digging up the info on this. Although I don't think it is possible to change the cylinder description on the title here in Missouri. I believe you are restricted to which engines were available when the car was produced.

As for the Troop C inspection hassle, been there done that.

GoldSE..

No, I am not the person with the Scorpion.

The law you are referring to about not being able to change # of cylinders on the MO title is the 7/87 law referred to above.

At one time I had a printed copy of the regulation which allowed a change in number of cylinders, but only if the larger engine was offered as a factory option. In the Fiero this would have allowed only a switch from 4 cyl to 2.8 V6...legally.

It was my awarness of this law and my concerns about it that really started this thread.

However, as stated above, this law was recinded in April of 2000. It is now possible to switch to a larger engine with 8 cylinders as long as the engine remains in its EPA approved form with all emmision controls functional, and the engine must be the same year or newer than the Fiero it is going into.

I went back to the current regulations looking for any reference to restrictions on changing number of cylinders, and the old regs simply are not there. MANY of the old regs were recinded in April of 2000 and are noted as such in the current document.

Current regulations offer many more options for alternate engines than before.

Unfortunately, just as your opinion and mine were based on old regulations, some of the supposed experts at Troup C and Jeff City are not apparently aware of these changes either.

The route I am taking is to hand carry a current copy of the regs with me ( printed from the Sec. of State web site), when I take my car for inspection. If any disagreements arise, hopefully I will have better supporting documentation than their "opinion" as to what the current law might be.

Kerry

------------------
Badges..? BADGES...????
We don gat to show yu no stinkin BADGES....!!!