I just noticed this thread earlier today. Not sure when it started... I've been thinking about this for the last several hours...... I wasn't sure if I should comment since some people have already "voted" for me.

I'm not sure if voting the issue is a good idea. I think we need consensus on the initial choice but I don't particularly support the 3-month term idea. It's easy enough to yank the rights to system functions if someone starts screwing off. It won't be hard to know when that is happening. I have no doubt that if Cliff doesn't catch it himself, in very short order his mailbox will be stuffed with complaints.

On the subject of policy.... I've mentioned to Cliff that I feel we need to make various rules a bit more formal. Yes, I meant a Terms of Service kind of thing in that. Let me explain a bit of why...

Obviously we've had some problems. If a user has to agree to terms at registration, then there is little that can be done if they get booted for violating those terms. In the litigation happy world we currently have this is an essential piece of cover your ass.

Terms would include issues like no spam, "hate speach", illegal activity, and other items that many, in fact most, people here already live with just fine. Carefully written terms will not change things for most users one bit.

A very large item that makes this more complicated is that the PFF is a truly international forum. The System is in The Netherlands. This means that country and the European Union regulate it. It operates with access to countries like Germany and France that have very strict regulations about various types of speech.

There have been comments in the past that one person or another was tromping on someone else’s speech rights.... I hate to tell everyone but the U.S. Constitution is not in effect here any more than Cliff, and international law may decide. The simple fact is, countries like Germany, France, and a few others have speech regulations for all kinds of things besides the obvious anti Nazi stuff that has been in the press. Those people have mainly been occupied chasing E bay Yahoo and other big money sites but don't think they wouldn't come after this system should someone file a complaint.

For the most part, the things that would be in the terms of service should not change the way things are done.

On locking, we just don't get that many threads that need it. Anyone abusing such a right won't last long. When we do get such a thread it needs to be squashed but we have to be careful how that is handled. There are a bunch of reasons for this besides the ones that are obvious. Cliff reminded me of a couple that I won't repeat for security reasons.

For example, The only way I'd lock the Fierolisa thread would be if Lisa herself complained. Since she is apparently having fun in that thread along with the others involved, anyone else that whines about it can get stuffed.

Other threads that turn into squabbles, like a couple recent ones have between business owners, are annoying but I wouldn't lock them either. I don't care if people fight as long as it doesn't become a simple cursing match. Besides that, fighting can be a good thing. It either uncovers people you really don't want to deal with or the fighters eventually realize they are actually on the same page and maybe they ought to work a bit closer together.

Let’s face it… most threads that need locking are Really Obvious. I don’t think we need to complicate that with a voting system or whatever. If people have a particular problem with a thread then it’s easy enough for those persons to mail a moderator so it can be investigated. The person complaining needs to have a bloody good reason to lock a thread. Obvious reasons for locking would include illegal activity, harassment, “hate speech” and that sort of serious material. Whining about stupid B.S. isn’t going to fly.

When a thread is locked, the person doing it should immediately email Cliff so he knows why it was locked and has the “heads up” when someone comes screaming.

As for moving a thread... good idea. (I lost track of who proposed it.) If that's done then an email has to go out immediately to the person telling them it got moved and why. Mainly this seems to happen when new people get here that don't understand which forum is for what. Sometime people just don't pay attention.... I think nearly all of us have done this at least once. The E-mail is important here. This lets the offending person know we didn’t just delete the thread.

Finally, if people would like me to do this, That's fine with me. I can either float or help with the tech section where I do most of my work already. I'm also happy to help other moderators investigate requests to close a thread. (Even if I'm not myself a moderator in the thread in question.) Some things are obvious but others may need more input. My feeling is that once a request is made it should be discussed first with Cliff and other moderators if there is any doubt about the request. There are times where as we grow this can be a complicated issue.

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Screamin Yellow Zonkers... If it's Screamin and Yellow, I ain't eatin it.

I suggested it only from my personal background in business. System Admin/MIS Consult and a manager to boot to which I am responsible for all individuals under me which includes any individual working on a computer, those directly under me as assistants and from the general position of a manager to take action if I see anybody in another department going outside the boundaries set if it is observed by me so it does not go any further. This includes informing their supervisor, lead-hand or the manager of that area all together. Sometimes things need to be spearheaded at the pass before it does get out of control.

Yes, nothing in the world is and/or will be perfect...here comes the politics of it folks from me

I feel with my background as a manager in my daily life and some of the actions I need to take by following the guidelines and policies that have been established over the years by the company I work with, I would hopefully be following a guide book to lets say the O/T area established by Cliff over time as well. For example, lets say through his guidleines he doesn't want the topic to have sexual inuendos towards the ladies on the forum.

As in my day job, I can be very fair and weed out what needs to be done, what issues may need to be addressed and/or what actions need to be taken, if any. Sometimes the thread may need a little redirection. By that, as I have learned (and it is not alwyas perfect), you can change an individual to move in the direction you may need them to without dictating to them but by implanting an idea in such a way, and as an old cliche goes, they actually are looking forward to the trip.

Of course, sometimes it is very, very successful, other times it is not and does backfire to which one may need to recourse their strategy to get them to move in the desired way.

Managers face those issues everyday, since they are dealing with such diverse personalities with the employees they work for. However, successful managers learn how to "read" the employees they work for to know how to interact with them. I feel the moderator is in est a manager and will face the same issues.

Then again, there are just some people they won't be able to work with at all. Do you punish the rest? NO. One needs to analyze what the true and underlying motivation is of the individuals causing the trouble and act fairly.

Not an easy job, but I feel strongly it can be done.

I do however disagree with the statement that this forum will go downhill. There is no basis for suspecting this.

I do agree with the problems of voting, though. I believe that we as a group should NOMINATE people, and let Cliff himself pick the moderators each time.

Seriously, you all do bring up some very good points both against and in favor of moderators. First of all, let me repeat what I've been saying since I started the forum: "I don't like the idea of moderators". Second, let me repeat something I said recently: "I don't have the time to read every single post on the forum". In the first two years of PFF's existence, this appeared to be no problem at all because the forum was pretty much self-moderating.

But as PFF gets more and more members, it gets increasingly difficult trying to follow all the threads and moderating them in such a way as not to pee of too many members.

Having additional moderators will lighten my burden, but will not solve the problem at hand. And I would have to moderate the moderators. I don't moderate this forum using a fixed rule set, but rather by using a little common sense. And I'm sure my idea of "common sense" can be quite different than someone else's.