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| Official aluminum fuel tank sale thread (Page 15/22) |
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woodyhere
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FEB 11, 10:19 AM
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Joe don't take this the wrong way but I have some concerns with your tank material and design. Aluminum isn't the best choice for a tank. it age hardens and often cracks in the weld area. I think there are enough auxiliary aluminum tanks out there with cracks to prove my point. Aluminum doesn't like being in contact with other metals and corrodes. The tank has to have a dead air space at the top for expansion or the gas (cold from the storage tank) will warm up, expand and end up in the charcoal canister. The vent tube should be at factory height. The tank should have a sump (just like the factory tank) so the lowered pick up is at the lowest point in the tank. The baffles should be like the box the factory tank has, only made of metal.
Stainless is a better choice for materials. It is easy to make a tank many times stronger than the factory tank - not weaker. Stainless has no issues with dissimilar metal corrosion (electrolysis).
I just finished my first stainless tank. lt is longer, wider and taller than the factory tank. It has the "box" baffles and deep sump. It also has a similar dead air space, slightly less, than the factory tank. When I was putting my tank in I jacked it up with a floor jack. I stopped when I thought the tank was at it's highest point. I got under the car and saw air space under the front jack stands! The tank was holding up the car! Don't try this with an aluminum tank.
I will be filling the tank with gas in a week or so. Since I have a deep sump, I know the lowered pump and pick up will use all the gas in the tank. On paper the tank holds 19.7 gallons. It's going to be fun to see how much it actually holds. I don't plan to sell any tanks but might sell plans and patterns. I have to be sure the tank works as it should before I do any of that. Expansion is an issue.
Woody------------------
woodys 427
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woodyhere
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FEB 11, 10:30 AM
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I forgot to say my tank uses a modified stock pump/sender assembly. The pump is dropped and inch and the sender arm is straightened out. The sending unit mounts to a machined flange welded into the top of the tank. It's held down on the factory O ring with about a dozen 10-32 screws in a mounting ring (blind hole). I tested the tank with sender installed to be sure it didn't leak before it went into the car. I made a longer stainless strap for the rear, made a deeper cross member and the wedge shape of the extended front tank sits on the body sheet metal. Any contact points have a thin sheet of my wife's cutting board plastic for insulation. Yes, I got her some new ones. ------------------
woodys 427
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Knight
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FEB 11, 03:21 PM
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Stainless steel would allow tyd tank to be a stessed member with a bottom of the tank being extended out to connect the left and right floor pans together. This would make the center u shaped hump into a tube thereby strengthening the car torsionaly.
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woodyhere
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FEB 12, 09:27 AM
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Joe I don't know how a person can use an overflow tank with your gas tank? The stock sender/pump mount has a check valve in the top to prevent gas from going into the expansion tank and ultimately into the charcoal canister. Wouldn't it be better to recess your marine sending unit to take advantage of the space at the top of the tunnel? Am I right in assuming you can't use an in tank pump with your tank or at least I can't see how you can from the pictures. Shouldn't the top od the tank have a radius, instead of a sharp welded edge, to match the shape of the top of the tunnel? The tunnel has a .625 radius at all the top joints. Mounting straps of aluminum is probable easy to make but not very safe. Stainless straps would be much safer/better. ------------------
woodys 427
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joesfiero
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FEB 12, 06:24 PM
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Woody,
Dont take this the wrong way. I don't build these tanks nor did I design them, but I'm certain you already know that because surely you would have read the ENTIRE thread as well as maybe even my other thread and as well you probably know that a certified marine aluminum fuel tank builder of 30+ years builds these tanks at his business location. That being said, yes aluminum has been used to make fuel tanks in the marine/automotive/other industry for many years. I understand it has corrosive properties, you did read here that I recommend customers to insulate the tank where it touches the frame correct? I also let all of my customers choose where they want the vent and fill tube height in relation to the stock tank, some choose the stock height and some don't but you already read that right? Also, I have an 85 Fiero with no expansion tank and the tubes all the way at the top, I live in Florida where it gets plenty hot and cold here and I fill my tank all the way up routinely with no expansion issues for years now, although I don't have to explain that to you.
My customers buy a custom made, aluminum fuel tank replacement for their vehicles and I have had no complaints. If anyone of my customers would like to come on here and file complaints (although it would be more professional to PM me with concerns first) that shed light on a faulty design or dangerous product then I will gladly pull the plug and offer these no more. I don't make money on these tanks, I have said it before. I was in a pinch with my car that had a rusty tank and turned to a friend to see what he could do and it grew from there, with the reaction I had on this very forum to my personal tank I decided to offer them to the Fiero community because our cars are getting older and harder to find quality parts for.
I'm glad you designed your own tank out of stainless, more power to you. I would even encourage you to offer the design as you stated for sale to the community. Not everyone has the machinery and knowledge to build their own tank so I wouldn't even consider it direct competition, not that I would be hurt by lost sales. However, I would ask that you keep this thread clear of posts that call my product inferior and either post them in a new thread or even in my other thread that's all about my personal tank. Also, please open your own thread when you do decide to offer plans for building your design for sale and I promise you I won't **** in that thread unless I plan to buy from you.
As for the design, I am not going to get into the details for you, I can tell you aren't going to become a paying customer so I spare myself having to rewrite everything I already wrote several times over in this thread but we offer tanks with the ability to use the stock sender as well as an option to mount an external pump with a marine grade sending unit that provides stock Fiero resistance values. They both come with built in baffles to keep the fuel at the pump and from sloshing around the sender giving false readings and have many options where and how to mount tubes, bungs, fittings, etc. because each tank is custom made.
If you have any other questions please ask but read the thread FIRST as there are 4 pages of me answering many of the same questions over and over. Also, I would appreciate it if you don't like something I'm selling at least act professional and either PM me with your concerns or add something constructive to this thread, otherwise I will look for the thread that you post elsewhere with your concerns of my products.
-Joe
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JimmyS
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FEB 12, 07:26 PM
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And people wonder why Fiero Vendors drop like flies.
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woodyhere
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FEB 12, 11:44 PM
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Joe I was just trying to help expose you to more information for your tanks. You have issues you haven't really dealt with. I think having a product means you stay open to ways to improve that product to make it the best it can be. I'm not so sure why you have become so defensive but I only want the best for you. I have a very busy business and can't afford to make tanks for folks. I make more doing other things. I hope you will put your fists down long enough to address some of the points I have brought up to help you make the best possible product. Vendors go out of business for a variety of reasons but making the best product isn't one of them. By the way I have about 20 more years experience than your manufacturer. ------------------
woodys 427
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Jefrysuko
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FEB 13, 12:42 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by woodyhere:
You have issues you haven't really dealt with.
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That's your opinion!
My opinion is that you are the one who is out of line here and I think Joe and JimmyS both agree. If you keep pushing things I'm sure you will get more opinions, some in the form of ratings.
If you would have made a thread about your tank and commented in there about how your design is superior to Joes that would have been fine. Again, my opinion.
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imabuzzkill
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FEB 13, 02:39 PM
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Steel rusts. Elastomers and rubber is broken down by ozone. ..... Eveything has a service life.
Woody, your comments, while they may have come from a good place, came out bad. (and I have no dog in this)
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joesfiero
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FEB 13, 10:12 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by woodyhere:
Joe I was just trying to help expose you to more information for your tanks. You have issues you haven't really dealt with. I think having a product means you stay open to ways to improve that product to make it the best it can be.
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Thank you for the input, however, as I stated above if you would have read through my thread you would have seen that my builder only builds aluminum tanks, out of marine grade 5052 aluminum. Stainless isn't an option. from the very first tank (which is still in my car) to the product(s) we offer now there have been several design changes and tweaks to make it the best product that we can offer at the price point that won't break the bank. Tony can absolutely construct any design that you may see fit as an "upgrade" but there would be more labor involved thus driving the cost up and out of many potential customers' price ranges. I offer the opportunity to send us a design for a one off tank with the understanding that there will be more cost involved. I have dealt with many customers over the years and only once has a customer requested a different design that he even decided against and went with my product offering.
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I'm not so sure why you have become so defensive but I only want the best for you. I have a very busy business and can't afford to make tanks for folks. I make more doing other things. I hope you will put your fists down long enough to address some of the points I have brought up to help you make the best possible product. Vendors go out of business for a variety of reasons but making the best product isn't one of them. |
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I don't believe I'm being any more defensive than necessary, I am not acting like an internet tough guy and threatening or calling names. I manage a multi million dollar business myself (in the automotive field, not related to making these tanks  ) The truth of the matter is that this is the mall, where the Fiero community as well as vendors (many of whom are much bigger than my little tank operation and some who even do this for a living) offer parts or products for sale again much like a mall but in internet form. Would you go into a brick and mortar store and announce to all potential customers and passerbys that the products they sell are inferior to what you can/have created? I am one of the most laid back people that I know of in my little world but again, to keep it professional one should post "concerns" of my product in a private message and that is why I reacted the way I did.
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By the way I have about 20 more years experience than your manufacturer. |
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That's awesome. Are we talking experience building marine fuel tanks or just in your profession in general? If you journeyed over to Tony's website I linked for you, you would see that the info is a few years old and he started the business in 1978 which puts him at 36 years building tanks - just like these - for public and commercial consumption. having 20 more years experience means you have put over 50 years into the profession you are in which means you are well into your 60s or 70s, plenty old enough to understand the concepts I have presented these last couple posts.
I would like to thank those of you who have chimed in that don't even know me nor have bought a tank. Should any of you decide you want to buy a tank I would be happy to have Tony make you one, if not - heck even if you want to buy Woody's plans to build your own stainless tank then may the Fiero Gods smile down on you. I love these cars, that's why I'm here and I want to see them stick around as long as possible so whatever you need to do to make yours last please do it. As I stated I hope you do offer plans Woody, I want to see these cars still around in 20 years so the more products available to make that happen the better. If you do offer the plans for sale, if it keeps even 1 more Fiero out of the junkyard then it was a success.
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My 3800sc Build Thread
2007 G6
2003 Silverado Quadrasteer
1985 Fiero notchie 3800sc
Polished GenV, NIC cam, custom SS headers with true dual exhaust, N* TB, LQ4 MAF, 42.5s, LS6 springs, 3.2 MPS, TRE 255 pump, SPEC stage 3+, powrtuner
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