Northstar rebuild: Will style (Page 4/117)
1986GTV8 JAN 12, 02:42 AM
See below, 520 - 2000 hp N*


http://hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/113_0303/north
Will JAN 12, 09:41 AM
I'm going to wait a few months to do it the way I really want to. Eagle rods, forged pistons, high end skirt and top coatings, gapless rings, timeserted block, etc.

Here's some stuff from Allen Cline:


quote
Your Fiero Northstar...I would just replace the head gasket and timesert
the head bolt holes while I was at it. If you decide you REALLY want to
re-ring it just put in new rings. Don't hone it. You'll just mess up
what was there. You'll likely still see the factory hone pattern still in
the bore if you look closely. Re-honing is greatly over-rated and not
needed....especially with the Northstar with the aggressive plateau honing
used. Just replace the head gasket. Don't disassemble the heads or
anything, they are fine. Do the timesert inserts on the head bolt holes
to prevent any head bolts from strippping and to make it bulletproof. Use
the factory head gaskets and new head bolts with no sealers or addtives to
the head gaskets. Timeserts are the only thread inserts to use on the
Northstar head bolt holes and there is a special kit and inserts for the
Northstar head bolt holes. Use only that special kit and inserts.
Helicoils and others will not work. Trust me.

At that time I'm also going to install SPEC stage III and aluminum flywheel, as well as CHRF springs and retainers. And maybe install the 3.94 FD and 1.02 4th I have lying around.

------------------
'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

Will JAN 13, 12:06 AM
More stuff from Allen Cline:


quote

Glanced at the website you mentioned about the breakin. Don't totally
disagree with him....but...the falicy in his reasoning is that the rings do
NOT stay in position....so...."wearing" the ring into the cylinder wall is
not what happens. On a perfectly green engine there is the act of
scraping down the high spots on the cylinder wall on break in. This is on
a microscopic level, of course. Just the "peaks" of the honing marks and
other surface irregularities are very quickly worn away by the rings. The
rings actually seal against the SIDES of the ring grooves....so...the
greatest factor in ring break in is mating the rings to the side of the
ring grooves. At high speed/high RPM the rings constantly rotate around
the piston.. So, it is wrong to assume that the ring mates to the cylinder
wall to any degree. If you run an engine for breakin as I have done and
examine the rings carefully under magnification (remember those 150
Northstars I mentioned..??) the ring face will look brand new...totally
unscatched. All the breakin is getting the high spots off the cylinder
walls (this just reduces friction...nothing to do with sealing to speak of)
and seating the rings against the SIDES of the ring grooves. That is why
it is important to have goo prelube on the rings as the pressrue actually
burnishes the ring against the side of the groove making a good seal.
so...the fellows guidelines for breakin are not totally out of line. I
just think he invented to wrong reason to explain why it works.

My favorite break-in maneuver is to get on the freeway where 55-80 MPH is
no big deal. You'll have to substitute the appropriate speeds for your
vehicle and gearing but on the Cadillacs with Norhtstars I use manual 2nd
gear at about 60 to start. Go full throttle to the normal shift
point/redline , let off completely to allow heavy engine braking down to
about 4000 RPM, go full throttle back to redline, let off completely back
to 4000 RPM, etc. Do this cylce maybe 20 times and then drive normally
in 4 to cool things down. Repeat as often as necessary. The alternate
load/overrun condition is very good for exercising the rings and the
alternate loads against the sides of the ring lands will seat them quickly.
The high RPM will promote ring rotation which is good also.

If anyone tells you the rings don't rotate you can be assured that they do
not know what they are talking about. All the conern over ring alignment
and such at assembly is a great idea...but...it really doesn't matter much
as the ring gap will rotate to new locations when the engine is run. I
have seen data on engines from the past where a radioactive tracer was
placed on the rings so that a gieger counter external to the engine could
pick up the radioactive tracer as it went by. It was possible to actually
calculate the ring rotation RPM at a constant high speed load point..!!!


------------------
'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

Will JAN 13, 12:08 AM

quote

If you eliminate the oil filter adapter and go to a remote one realize that
ALL the engine's oil goes out that port in the block. ALL of it. There
is no provision for internal bypassing or anything. Use large line with
an ID of AT LEAST as large as the ports in the side of the block. The
Northstar engine flows a LOT of oil. About 12 GPM at 6500 RPM. You do
NOT want to restrict that oil circuit. The normal bypass circuit is built
into the oil filter adapter so you must make provisions for a bypass in the
remote filters and/or have sufficient filters to not bypass. It will take
large lines and two of the big truck filters in parallel to make sure there
is no pressure drop with no bypass.

The piston skirt coatings are OK. I don't know that you'll see any
advantage with them but they don't hurt. The main advantage to us is that
they let us fit the pistons a little tighter for less noise (less piston
slap) wihout worrying about scuffing a piston when the engine is cold and
the pistons expand rapidly on a WOT maneuver. Personally, I wouldn't
bother on a stock engine like you are dealing with..or one that is slighty
warmed over.


------------------
'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

jstricker JAN 13, 12:51 AM
I thought the old wives tale about the rings not rotating had gone away a long time ago but I guess not. There ARE some rings that don't rotate, mostly in two strokes that have pinned lands, but everything else rotates and, in fact, is designed to rotate.

Nice quotes Will.

John Stricker


quote
Originally posted by Will:

More stuff from Allen Cline:

If anyone tells you the rings don't rotate you can be assured that they do
not know what they are talking about. All the conern over ring alignment
and such at assembly is a great idea...but...it really doesn't matter much
as the ring gap will rotate to new locations when the engine is run. I
have seen data on engines from the past where a radioactive tracer was
placed on the rings so that a gieger counter external to the engine could
pick up the radioactive tracer as it went by. It was possible to actually
calculate the ring rotation RPM at a constant high speed load point..!!!
jstricker JAN 13, 12:53 AM
I have no idea what happened with this.......................................

[This message has been edited by jstricker (edited 01-13-2004).]

Will JAN 13, 08:06 PM
A bit more:


quote

If you eliminate the oil filter adapter and go to a remote one realize that
ALL the engine's oil goes out that port in the block. ALL of it. There
is no provision for internal bypassing or anything. Use large line with
an ID of AT LEAST as large as the ports in the side of the block. The
Northstar engine flows a LOT of oil. About 12 GPM at 6500 RPM. You do
NOT want to restrict that oil circuit. The normal bypass circuit is built
into the oil filter adapter so you must make provisions for a bypass in the
remote filters and/or have sufficient filters to not bypass. It will take
large lines and two of the big truck filters in parallel to make sure there
is no pressure drop with no bypass.

The piston skirt coatings are OK. I don't know that you'll see any
advantage with them but they don't hurt. The main advantage to us is that
they let us fit the pistons a little tighter for less noise (less piston
slap) wihout worrying about scuffing a piston when the engine is cold and
the pistons expand rapidly on a WOT maneuver. Personally, I wouldn't
bother on a stock engine like you are dealing with..or one that is slighty
warmed over.



I think that because I have obligations to Street Dreams to test the aluminum knuckles, I'll go ahead and re-ring, timesert, and install new gaskets. Quick and cheap. I'll go valvesprings, and SPEC clutch and flywheel while I have the engine out. Maybe I can even find the time/money to overhaul another Getrag and install the 1.02 4th and 3.94 final. I want that transmission!

------------------
'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

Will FEB 04, 01:21 PM
Working up the budget...
code:

Eagle Rods      $450   (to be ordered shortly)
Pistons         $0     (already had a set of stock early style)
Piston Coating  $300   (Swain Tech TBC dome and PC-9 skirt, also to be ordered shortly)
Piston Rings    $330   (Total Seal MaxSeal gapless top ring with Napier 2nd ring, also ordered shortly)
Bearings        $??    (wcapman used Clevite mains with GM rods, but CHRF may have some new specialized bearings soon...)
Machine work    $300   (align bore block, align grind crank, balance rotating assembly)
TimeSerts       $43.80 (www.timesert.com, $2.58 each for <20, $2.19 each for 20 or more. Jstricker has graciously offered
                       to let me use his TimeSert toolset, which would be $294 direct from TimeSert)

Looking at $1420+ for the short block... may have to pass on the valvesprings this time...

Another $1300 for a $500 Getrag overhaul and $800 SPEC clutch and flywheel

Looking for the week of the 22nd of March to do the work.

------------------
'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Do that again, only mean it this time

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-04-2004).]

Will FEB 04, 05:38 PM
ARP does not make head studs specifically for the Northstar, however, a VW stud works just fine. The kit is ARP P/N 204-4204. The cheapest place I've seen it is from Summit for $97.39 each. Two kits are required for a Northstar.
No ARP rod bolts of main studs exist for this engine, but I will be sending them a rod bolt or two once the pistons are disassembled, and will work with them on main studs... we'll see what I actually deem cost-effective. CHRFab obviously has to use stock rod bolts, since nothing else is available, and those seem to tolerate plenty of RPM.

Still need: main studs/bolts, new style oil pump

Jstricker, I know I get the pump from GM, but what do I need to ask for there?

------------------
'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Do that again, only mean it this time

jstricker FEB 04, 11:46 PM
Will,

I'll get you the pump P/N tomorrow when I'm back over at the shop, sorry I didn't see the thread sooner. As you're working up your budget, I noticed you don't have anything for gaskets. There are no sets available that I've ever found and not all of them are available from GMPartsdirect, I had to order some of them from my GM dealer. You'll have a minimum of $200 in gaskets, IIRC. You might also consider the late balancer. It was part of a SB and the old style could allow it to lose tendion on the oil pump drive sleeve. I don't remember what year your engine is, so I'd have to check if the SB applies to your engine to tell if you have the early or late style.

Now that I think about it, I might just email you a copy of the SB's on the pump and the balancer in the morning. They have the P/N's in them for both and you can determine if you need them or not.

I haven't gotten around to ordering my timeserts yet, either you or I could order enough for both our engines and split the cost, save some money on the quantity and shipping, maybe.

I'll email you in the morning.

John Stricker

quote
Originally posted by Will:

ARP does not make head studs specifically for the Northstar, however, a VW stud works just fine. The kit is ARP P/N 204-4204. The cheapest place I've seen it is from Summit for $97.39 each. Two kits are required for a Northstar.
No ARP rod bolts of main studs exist for this engine, but I will be sending them a rod bolt or two once the pistons are disassembled, and will work with them on main studs... we'll see what I actually deem cost-effective. CHRFab obviously has to use stock rod bolts, since nothing else is available, and those seem to tolerate plenty of RPM.

Still need: main studs/bolts, new style oil pump

Jstricker, I know I get the pump from GM, but what do I need to ask for there?