Pantera parts ! (Page 50/75)
Custom2M4 MAR 21, 12:17 AM
I think I speak for everyone when I say we need more rim pictures!
bubbajoexxx APR 12, 02:01 PM
please feed me I need to see more on the proto type

please
opm2000 APR 13, 09:01 PM
As it's getting warmer, the time to give the prototype a fresh paint job approaches. I like the current yellow, which is a PPG Subaru Yellow. Meanwhile, I got some new shoes for it, General Altimax HP 50 profile. After I lay into the wheels with Mother's, and the paint job is finished, I'll mount these.



The LT1 is running nicely. Things I'd like to get done before the 25th Show are
1. relocate battery to front
2. relocate the c500 and associated wiring to inside the cab
3. relocate the air/water seperator to where the battery is now
4. temporarily replace the AC pump with a delete idler
5. fabricate a delete idler for the power steering pumpf

I have the AC delete pully. It's actually a stock item.



Not using the PS pump, I've been geting by just running a couple of hoses to a remote fill tank, and I think the pump has been running wide open since there's obviously nothing for it to be controlled by. I think a similar delete pully can be contrived, or perhaps somehow use the existing pump as a pully mount. Warmer weather will tell.

David Breeze
opm2000 APR 13, 09:21 PM
The real work on the prototype has centered almost entirely around the axles.

I've based thie entire drivetrain build mostly on Joe Wynman's CD . And of course what I could glean from other builders and folks like Rockcrawl. There is precious little other info out there. If you've ever read JW's CD, you will know what I mean when I say there are many mistakes and omissions in it, it's like a nice first rough draft.

JW's premise was that you could use the stock Eldo/Riv/Toro axles, and the knuckle and hub bearing, and disc brakes of a '91 Oldsmobile Calais. You got a 115mm bolt pattern was the only drawback. And that did work, as far as fitting and fabricating things went. But all along, I was leary of how the outer cv of the axle abutted the bearings.

First trip to the junkyard revealed that there was no such thing as a Calais with a 115 bolt pattern. But there was a '91 Ciera, so I thought mabey JW had printed another mistake. So this shows a '91 Ciera knuckle and brakes. It fits the Fiero control arm just fine, and you get a bit larger brakes, something like Beretta brakes. The difference is the massive size of the bearing, it really is nice.



And this is the bearing, a 513016K. The splines accept the Toro axle great. Problem is the "shoulder" of the outer cv does not butt up against the bearing when torqued down.



And here is a Ciera axle on top, Toro axle below.



A bit of a close up of the outer cv's. When torqued into the bearing, the shoulder never contacted the bearing. The two sets of splines would begin to draw up against each other. I verified this when I torqued down the junkyard bearings, the first time, and about a mile down the road they began to sing, because the were being pressed apart.

.

David Breeze
opm2000 APR 13, 09:45 PM
So after fighting this for a couple of years, I gave in and called a reputable cv axle specialty shop, somewhere in the eastern US. I won't say their name. Their tech guy said he had made up axles for 13 of these particular conversions. He said to send him my axles and one bearing, and he would swap out whatever it took to make it fit.

I did, and he called me saying " you know what you sent me fits perfectly, I'll test run your axles and measure the fitments, but your a-ok." I made sure he understood about the splines being the only point of contact, and he swore that that was the way it should be. "If the shoulder of the cv butts up to the bearing, it will destroy the bearing".

Ok, I got my axles back and put them into a brand new set of bearings, and prompltly pressed them apart, right there.

So I gave up. Well, not completely, I did buy the Ciera axle you saw, just to se how it fit the bearing. Right into the splines, and smack up against the shoulders and bearings, just like whenever you've put a Fiero axle into it's bearing.

There may be a way to transplant a Ciera outer onto a Toro axle, I tried and they are different sizes. Some day, when I'm feeling rich and famous, I may ask some cv specialty axle shop to look into it. Baloney.

So I'm now in the process of building axles like Rockcrawl, Buildamonster, and others have done. Not quite as elegant as cross-fitting parts, but extremely functional.

This involves taking the Toro inner and having a machine shop make 1" thick plates with the correct bolt pattern to duplicat this.



This becomes the innermost side of the new inner cv. The bolt pattern bolts up to the output shaft of the differential.



Next, the Fiero inner cv from a manual trans, driver's side (left) is provided to the machine shop, and the splines are turned down to yield a smooth shaft. A hole a few thousands larger is drilled in the center of the 1" plates, to accept the Fiero "tulip".

This is a new Cardone (Autozone) axle. I am using new to avoid the possability of wierd sizing with reman axle parts. Notice how much more robust the new tulip is? I guess that's nice.



Along the way, I did try and see if by chance the Fiero axle would just fit into the Toro tulip, and make life easier. Nope, slightly bigger. Toro on left, Fiero on right.



So then I'll take the plate & tulip assembly and dry fit it to locate how far out of the plate the tulip should extend to achieve the mid-point of axle travel in the tulip. Then back to the machine shop for final welding and remachining if necessary.

What we're doing is putting these three parts together



Believe me, when it's done, I'll update you.

David Breeze

[This message has been edited by opm2000 (edited 04-13-2008).]

RCR APR 15, 12:14 PM
David,
You probably thought of this, but can you take the Fiero rollers off the tulip end and fit it to the Toro axle? How about the other end? Disassemble the axle end totally and swap the parts. That's what I'm doing to mix and match my Aurora axles with my Celebrity hubs.

Bob
opm2000 APR 16, 10:34 AM
RCR,
Your point is well taken, and yes, that's pretty much what I've been trying. I've tried measuring and/or swaping the various components of axles to see if I can come up with a proper fit. But no luck yet.

A couple of resources I've been plowing thru are the catalogues or listings available at

http://www.interparts.com

and

http://empius.com

lots of good info there. And many thanks to Blackrams for supplying "donor" cv axles which I've disassembled, tried fitting, and put back together, and returned to the store. Hmmm.

The tech guy at the cv shop I had mentioned can put a Fiero outer onto a Toro axle. He uses what he called a special cage that compensates for the two size differences between the fiero cage and the Toro axle. I may go that route one day, but you are still left with the smaller Fiero outer and Fiero bearing. That, plus I just don't know what to think about the advice he gave me after our last exchange.

The comparatively massive size of the Toro outer and the Ciera bearing are Nice, just what you'd like to use for a high hp application.

For now, fabricating a Fiero axle that will mount to the 325 differential will have to do.

But the quest is by no means over.

David Breeze
355Fiero MAY 03, 12:49 AM
David;

I had a guy over on the kitcar website build a set of axles that used an S-10?? outer hub and CV housing mating up to a Fiero inner setup.

Look under "Funnywheels goes topless" in the technical section over there and I am pretty sure he explains what he has done. I remember reading it somewhere over there anway. If not, PM or email me and I will pass you on to him as he will be very willing to explain what he did to mate everything up.

I also saw another guy use a Corvette outer hub and CV housing mated to the Fiero shaft but I can't remember where I saw that one.

Cheers
Don
opm2000 MAY 15, 05:39 AM
An update, of sorts:

First, the Yellow prototype :

- the machine shop guy took a weeks vacation, but he's back and called late yesterday that the axle bases were ready to be picked. These will require dry fitting with the cv axles in place to locate the relation of the bases & cv tulips. Then back to the machine shop where they will be preheated, welded, post heated, and re-machined.

- I'd noticed a squeal from the engine at mid rpms, and just asumed it was the power steering pump, since it was not in use and allways circulating a wee bit of fluid thru itself. At first I planned to remove it and fabricate a delete idler.

In the proccess, I had to remove the alternator, and a quick hand-spin of it revealed that it was the squealing culprit, and had to be replaced.

Long story short, I removed this stuff



- also removed but not shown above were the alternator and the electric air pump and bracket. This stuff weighed in well over 50 pounds.

- and I looked at what was available on ebay, and just made my own set of low mount alternator brackets. Took only a short while to figure out the actual brackets & bushings, but a while longer to figure out the right alternator, belt and balancer pulley.



- to make all this work, I had to switch from the shorter Camaro balancer, to the taller Corvette balancer.





- If any LT1 guys want to make their own brackets, I can send a xeroxed tracing of the brackets with dimensions.....sorry, no cad files.

- while I was in there, I addressed the occasionally damp water pump weep hole, which I was trying to ignore. Good thing - I found the pump bearings totally shot. So I replaced the pump with a reman unit. Since my optispark seems to be just fine, keeping the water pump in good health is very important. It's an LT1 thing

David Breeze
opm2000 MAY 15, 06:14 AM
And the Choptop Pantera:

- I had mechanically & electrically installed the engine and wanted to proceed on to the final bits of bodywork. But I wanted to make sure the engine was going to work first. So I fired it up. Boy was that fun. ( is there a symbol for chagrin or intense saracasim ? )

- It ran, and quite well. Considering I'm no electrical genius at all, that in itself is really quite amazing. And absolutely no leaks anywhere, and a nice smooth idle.

- But it clacked like the dickens. I only ran it for a few 10 second intervals. I listened to it with a stethascoope, had my redneck neighbor listen to it, and consulted with good buddies John Stricker and Jean aka Scrabblegod.

- This is a crate engine, so it may have been just setting for about 16 years or so. After consulting all around, I pulled the noisy side valve cover. It was dry inside, and only the red assembly lube was visible, which I had used when I installed the Allante intake.



- Removing the upper intake and then the other valve cover, I found the same thing. Very close inspection of pushrods, rockers, springs, valves, bridges, etc. revealled no apparent wear, breaks, or clues.

- Removing the distributor and running the oil pump with a drill made the drill turn slowly, and start to smoke and heat up. Hmmmm.





- Removing the lower manifold exposed the lifters. All of the pushrods came out with a bit of oil in them, but nowhere near their full amount. And the lifters came right out, they were externally well oiled, and looked like they were machined yesterday. I rolled the pushrods on a plate of glass, and none were bent.

- Trying the electric drill again, but with the lifters out was quite different. The oil pump spun like mad, circulating oil everywhere.



- So a quick reconsult, and the verdict/hope is: the engine didn't have time to pump up the lifters.

- Before reassembly, I'm taking each lifter apart to verify it is not internally stuck, blocked or damaged.



- Each unit is taken down to this point and enough pblaster shot into the plunger to allow verifying that the spring & ball valve works and is clear. Then refilled with oil in and the air purged out, and put back into the block. I'll pre-fill the pushrods, and use lavish amounts of assembly lube again. Fun, fun.

David Breeze