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| ECM upgrade (1227730) for stock 2.8 (Page 41/107) |
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Blacktree
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DEC 18, 10:09 PM
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"Why mess around" is exactly why I want to do the tuning myself. No offense to Darth, but I'd rather "dial in" the ECM programming myself, instead of playing the mail order game.
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megafreakindeth
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DEC 19, 07:08 AM
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while slightly inconvienent, mailing in the datalogs and waiting for the chip works rather well. ive had my motor tuned by him, if you pull the plugs out today youll c theyre nice and amber and very clean. i dont think theres much to 'dial in' but theres alot of knowledge which i and most people dont have. they do a great job.
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ALLTRBO
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DEC 19, 07:11 AM
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Some people like to get it "close enough" the easy and effective way, and that's fine. Others like to learn to dial it in themselves to any degree they desire, and that's also fine. One way isn't necessarily better than the other.
On the software side, I use Tunerpro RT for the Camaro and I love it. It's free, but I gave Mark a donation anyway.
http://tunerpro.markmansur.com/
The hardware side of things comes from Craig Moates, as he has everything in one place for reasonable prices and I've personally never had a problem with his customer support. There are several options to interface the '730 depending on what exactly you want to do with it.
http://www.moates.net/
The two work together a bit to ensure compatibility for most of the stuff, which is also nice. There are a few other options, but this is what I and many others have successfully done.
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Pyrthian
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DEC 19, 09:37 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by Will:
I would say 5-8 HP might not be out of the question. Remember, if there were significant gains to be made by shaping the timing and fuel curves above 4800 RPM, GM would have mapped the stock ECM with appropriate curves. I think the fact that they chose to develop the stock program with flat timing and fuel curves above 4800 RPM means that they didn't think there was anything more to get in that part of the map. I believe this is a hardware limitation. The 2.8 isn't doing anything but making noise in that RPM range.
I think that 1 MPG on the highway is about all you'd see from the digital EGR.
My Formula would return 27.5 mpg on the highway at 80 mph or so. A 3-4 mpg gain would put it at 30.5-31.5. Fuel mileage gains from EGR come from reduced pumping losses, which occur through the reduction of manifold vacuum. I just don't think there's that much pumping loss in that engine at that power level.
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I agree - all thing being the same - no or little gains.
I think the flatness of the high rpm area on the stock ECM is because the intake limit has been reached, and nothing more can be gained.
that being said - my 3.1 gets just under 20 mpg on a manual trans. yes, its a 4.10 - but that shouldn't be killing it THAT badly. I think the main cause is the ADS Superchip. anyways - I am expecting 25mpg when this is done. but, being I have changed alot of other crap also - I will never know which item did what.
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Darth Fiero
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DEC 19, 02:09 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Blacktree:
"Why mess around" is exactly why I want to do the tuning myself. No offense to Darth, but I'd rather "dial in" the ECM programming myself, instead of playing the mail order game. |
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There's nothing wrong with doing the tuning yourself. In fact, I encourage it; espeically for those who have highly modified or boosted applications. I even have a whole page on my website devoted to helping the DIY'er figure out how to get started and do the work themselves.
Having said that, there are people who simply don't want to spend the money to buy all of the hardware and software they need to do their own tuning. Or perhaps they don't have the time to learn how to do it themselves. Regardless of the reason, I provide that service the best way I can thru mail order; and that's by requesting scan data from the customer should it be needed.
-ryan
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power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions | www.gmtuners.com
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Darth Fiero
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DEC 19, 02:28 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Pyrthian:
I agree - all thing being the same - no or little gains.
I think the flatness of the high rpm area on the stock ECM is because the intake limit has been reached, and nothing more can be gained.
that being said - my 3.1 gets just under 20 mpg on a manual trans. yes, its a 4.10 - but that shouldn't be killing it THAT badly. I think the main cause is the ADS Superchip. anyways - I am expecting 25mpg when this is done. but, being I have changed alot of other crap also - I will never know which item did what. |
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The high RPM power limitations of the stock 2.8 have been discussed. My $0.02 on the matter is the MPFI intake used on the Fiero 2.8 was designed during an era at GM in which they were looking to make the most power out of the engine without having to rev it to the moon. This allowed them to save money by using cheaper valvetrain and internal engine components. It is well known in the performance automotive circles that in order for engines to survive repeated high RPM operation, they need to have very good (and usually expensive) parts installed in the valvetrain and bottom end. GM in the 80's wasn't in the best financial shape, so they cut corners everywhere they could. EFI was a must-do because of the emissions regulations.
The biggest problem with the stock 2.8's power limitations is the long runner design of the intake, the restrictive cylinder head ports, and the minimal size and restrictive design of the exhaust system. All three parts of the engine's components are responsible for the power limitations of the engine. So you simply cannot just replace one component out of these three and expect the engine to produce a lot more power; or produce that power higher in the RPM band. The Iron-Head 2.8, 3.1, and 3.4 engines never produced good upper-RPM power. In fact, concerning pushrod V6 engines; we didn't see a decent upper-RPM power producing engine come from GM until the introduction of the 3100 V6 in 1994. As designs progressed, the upper plenums of these pushrod engines came with shorter intake runner lengths (as well as larger diameters). The latest offerings for the pushrod 60 deg V6 are quite impressive for their size and design:
3500 OHV V6: 211hp @ 5800 rpm / 220tq @ 4400rpm
3900 OHV VVT V6: 242hp @ 6000rpm / 242tq @ 4800rpm
So basically what this all boils down to is the power limitations of the stock Fiero 2.8 engine aren't because of the factory ECM. Now the reason for the "upgrade" to the 7730 ECM is because the 7730 is more "hacked" than the Fiero units; is faster; is more capable; and can just plain do a lot more than the Fiero ECM. One of the more interesting features of the 7730 when using the $88 code mask is there is a "highway mode fuel" function that leans out the AFR periodically during certain steady cruising situations. This can increase fuel economy by 2 or 3 mpg (estimated) depending on the driving habits of the owner. This system only kicks in during light cruising loads so don't expect it to work if you are flying down the interstate at 80mph.
The owner of the car I originally did this swap for told me the best fuel economy he has seen out of his Fiero since the upgrade was 40mpg. But you need to keep in mind I also installed a 440T4 auto OD trans with 2.84 gearing into his car at the same time so his case is probably the best you will ever see. His specs are far from being optimal for best performance but that wasn't what he was concerned with.
-ryan
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Mister
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DEC 19, 06:50 PM
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Always great info here  Thanks.
| quote | Originally posted by Gwain:
I'm waiting to get the "revised" plate back in machining. Last week with Thanksgiving, was a short week, and this week we've been "swamped" (because last week was a short week)!
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Any news about the EGR adapter Gwain?
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Gwain
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DEC 19, 08:38 PM
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We're setting up to run the revised EGR plates now. I'm probably going to make about 5 or 6 in total. I feel pretty secure the redesign will finalize this thing, but of course we'll have Darth Fiero give it the acid test and final blessing.
I'm going to make the extras available at $25 to anybody who wants one. After that, $35. I don't really expect a big market for these, and I'm not really set up to market them myself. I hope someone will pick up that ball after we'ver proofed them.
I'll post when the sample goes to Darth.------------------
Marc in sunny Titusville, FL
84 SE son's car, loaded
85 Coup w/V6 transplant
85 GT newly on the road
86 SE/GT conversion just bought - big plans!
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rjblaze
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DEC 19, 08:47 PM
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Please put me as #1 on the list for wanting one of the adapter plates.
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Mister
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DEC 20, 12:35 AM
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Marc, it goes without saying that I would order 1 adapter from the first approved batch  [This message has been edited by Mister (edited 12-20-2007).]
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