Trinten's SBC/F23 build - The work has begun! (Page 38/76) fieroguru APR 29, 06:36 AM quote Originally posted by Trinten: Since they said not to bother to send back the wrong pressure plate (which is probably at, or only slightly above, stock -- Guru would need to chime in there), I guess I can put it up in the market here, but not sure how well it'd work with another clutch. If they don't make this issue right, you already have paid for this pressure plate and are free to do what you want with it. However, from the feel of the clutch pedal, I doubt this pressure plate was anything but a stock one painted Red. quote Originally posted by Trinten: I'll be ordering the SC883F, clamping pressure is good for up to 515 pounds of torque, which will do great for the time being. I am going to call and see if I can get different clutch material than the organic, maybe they have an equivalent to the multi-puck ceramic setup I had, or a carbon/ceramic. People say they don't engage well, but (excluding first gear), I found engagement to be pretty smooth. The Spec Stage 3+ material is very similar to the 6 puck ClutchNet, but it is a full face clutch to it engages smoother. It isn't organic, but is a carbon semi-metallic material. quote from Spec website The flagship stage for a high powered street or race car that requires a manageable and friendly engagement, the stage 3+ features a carbon semi-metallic full faced material that offers unparalleled life, friction co-efficient and drivability characteristics in one single package. The hub is double sprung with spring cover relieves for flexibility and heat treated components for strength and durability. Great for street, drag, drift, autocross, road racing, pulling, rallye and drift. High clamp pressure plate Carbon semi-metallic friction material High torque sprung hub and disc assembly Bearing and tool kit Trinten APR 29, 10:02 AM Oh good! I must have read the description from a different part number where I thought it said organic! Well, that simplifies things! Chug MAY 09, 09:12 AM Trinten, I know when Drew-py was looking to replace his clutch he replaced a stock style Spec with a McLloud, That thing wasn't good for the 247hp stock 3800sc2. He went back with a Custom Spec with a Getrag inner and a 3800 Camaro clutch. With that he is now putting down about 400/400 and hasn't told me about any issues. Drew was very happy with how easy Spec was when it came to a custom order/build. I think you'll be very happy with what you get. If you are not then it would be your own fault for not ordering what you needed. Trinten MAY 09, 12:15 PM Thanks Chug! My 'off the shelf' Spec arrived at FieroGuru's place on Wednesday. With the clamping pressure this has, I shouldn't have any issues with it. But it's good to know that they were so accommodating with getting a customer application built. I'll have to keep that in mind for the future. fieroguru MAY 10, 09:05 PM Back from my most recent trip for work and the new spec clutch was waiting for me. Comparison between the two: Once the new clutch/pressure plate were bolted to the flywheel and measured the height of the clutch fingers: 2.112" Then I measured the range of motion of the HTOB w/o any spacer. 2.776" Retracted 1.899" Extended So if I just installed this like it is, there would only be .213" for release and .664" for wear... no chance this will work w/o a spacer. Now this combo is unique in that the flywheel is about .200" further from the transmission than a stock fiero due to the Archie flywheel and adapter plate. This car did come with a HTOB spacer that is .250" thick. So using it with this clutch the release will be .463" and .414" for wear. Even with the spacer, there is a very good chance the HTOB will over extend. The HTOB spacer needed to be thicker, so I turned a very larger washer down for a tight press fit inside the HTOB spacer. With the washer inside, the HTOB is now .437" thick. So now there is: .650" for release .227" for wear And this will work just fine... Then it was time to put everything back together and get it ready to go back under the car. Trinten MAY 11, 12:37 AM Looking awesome!! That pic of the clutches also showed me something else that changed with Clutchnet, my original clutch from them, the springs were fully enclosed - not the best for knowing when a spring broke, but would definitely keep broken spring parts from jumping out and tearing/jamming things up (it was one of the things I liked... now if it's a bad idea, that's my ignorance showing). But this new clutch from them, not enclosed. So, another mark against them in my book, as it's another difference from "Give me the same thing I ordered before." Either way, I'm super glad the new parts showed up and were correct, and that FieroGuru was able to cook up a fix to make sure the spacing was right!! Thank you again! fieroguru MAY 11, 07:13 AM quote Originally posted by Trinten: Looking awesome!! That pic of the clutches also showed me something else that changed with Clutchnet, my original clutch from them, the springs were fully enclosed - not the best for knowing when a spring broke, but would definitely keep broken spring parts from jumping out and tearing/jamming things up (it was one of the things I liked... now if it's a bad idea, that's my ignorance showing). But this new clutch from them, not enclosed. So, another mark against them in my book, as it's another difference from "Give me the same thing I ordered before." That has always just been a sales gimmick, as they only enclose one side of the springs - only the front side that is visible when the clutch is installed. The new disk does have the front side enclosed, but as you can see the back side is just like the Spec setup. Even comparing the thickness of the metal in the spring opening, they are the same thickness. Here is a front side pic: motoracer838 MAY 11, 09:24 AM Lookin' good, but I'm confused, when did Spec become the "good" clutch company??? Joe fieroguru MAY 11, 12:54 PM quote Originally posted by motoracer838: when did Spec become the "good" clutch company??? Joe The Spec Stage 3+ is probably the best clutch on the market for 300-450 whp Fieros. Its holds the power and has very good drivabilty. If you don't want to worry about the springs, go with the Stage 4+ (same clutch, just with a solid hub). The Stage 3+ was the clutch I originally recommended for this swap, but Vince wanted to stay with ClutchNet. I have used Spec clutches in every swap going on 10 years and have never had one fail. I have also waited in Spec's lobby while they built me a new clutch (transmission issue) while I was on the Hot Rod Power Tour, so I am Spec supporter. I have used their Stage 2+, Stage 3, Stage 3+ and Stage 4+ clutches in cars pushing up to 400 whp. However, Spec as a company isn't nearly as stellar at their Stage 3+ clutch. Their R&D does leave a lot to be desired. Very early on Spec had the issue with the splined hubs being backwards. I think they tried to sell the HTOB clutches (that don't have a throwout bearing support sleeve) to the Fiero market w/o ever testing fitting on in house. There was interference and it took years for all those bad clutches to be removed from service. Then they had the spring popping out issue. This was mostly isolated to the Spec Stage 3 clutch and I think that clutch's on/off nature with excessive shuttering just overloaded the retaining tabs for the springs. The vast majority of the spring issues have stopped in the recent years, so they either fixed it or most people are buying the Stage 3+. The Spec Stage 3 clutch is just a bad clutch and I would never recommend it. The only relatively recent Spec clutch failures were with the F40's and those don't use the same disk as the Fiero version, I don't know the details about their failures (one behind a SBC and one behind a 3800SC) so those might be completely unrelated to the Fiero application. fieroguru MAY 12, 05:19 PM Vince's SBC swap is back running again! The vibrating of the intake is much less, but it still changes sounds when I put my hand on it... eventually it will need some kind of sound deadener or top plate. It doesn't sound abnormal, but since I know its there it still annoys me. The A/C clutch was still vibrating, so I removed it from the compressor the time being (its nice being able to swap it out with everything installed!). I will buy a new one and I hope it doesn't vibrate as much. The good news is that once this was removed, the rest of the engine/exhaust wasn't making any other annoying or otherwise distracting noises! The V-bands are now leak free too and while the engine was out, I checked the header flange gaskets for black soot and they appear to be leak free as well. The new clutch definitely has a higher clamp pressure plate (I noticed it just tightening the pressure plate bolts), but still has smooth engagement. While I had it out for its first test drive up around the subdivision, I figured it was a good time to take an outdoors video of the exhaust. So you have something to compare it to, I parked it along side the LS4 car and started it up and revved it as well. While Vince's car and the LS4 car share the same muffler, Vince's has a Vibrant performance resonator and resonator tips which help cut down on the throatiness that the LS4 car has. Here is the video/sound clip of both cars: I am pretty sure that while reinstalling the axles, I figured out the source of the gear whine that gets worse with vehicle speed and the excessive backlash in the drivetrain as you transition between on/off throttle. This car has a quaife limited slip, so there are no spider gears and the tripods snap tightly into the limited slip unit. When I was installing the DS axle, it only went in about 1/2 way and got in a bind, when I tried to pull it back out it moved slightly and made a heavy metal thunk... That caused me to look into the noise further and found this: So it would appear the differential bearings are toast... I am going to drive the car a little this week to fine tune some other aspects of the car, but will pull everything back out this coming weekend and drop the transmission off at the rebuilder on Monday so they can open it up and see what it going on inside it.