[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 09-24-2010).]

quote Originally posted by ALLTRBO: Cool! Thanks for chiming in. Do you have a thread about your car or can you give more info? I'd like to hear all about it. How did the 3100 compare to the 3500? Turbo specs? Boost level? Spool time? Tuning? C'mon, give it up! I do expect the Clutchnet clutch to behave just how you described, thanks for the confirmation. It'll hold everything the TGP shortblock can throw at it, so I definitely don't plan on swapping to the twin-disk until I install the 3200. You're correct, that clutch is going to be a wild beast, it'll be hard to tame, but necessary. My only major concern with it is the instant clamping between shifts, that does indeed put more transient loading through the tranny. However, the MOI is going to be insanely low with this setup, and more-so because I'll be upgrading to the aluminum pressure plate to save even more weight. I'm hoping that this will make up for the slight slippage that organic single disk clutches have. Yes, the 2.8 crank will drop right into the 3500 block, as will the other 60V6 cranks. The difference lies in the stroke (of course) and the rod journal diameter, which is okay since I won't be using any of the 3500 rotating assembly. WOT-Tech sells Diamond forged pistons for the 3400, and can order them .100" over. That .100 will make up for the larger bore of the 3500 block plus an additional clean-up bore of about .020". It will come out to 3199cc's which isn't much less than the 3350cc's of the "3400", but it will love to rev higher. The reason for using oversize 3400 pistons instead of 3500 pistons is that the wrist-pin heights are different between the two. The 3400 pin height sits perfect with the 76mm stroke to throw in a set of (very stout) off-the-shelf 5.85" small-journal small block Chevy rods. Those will need to be narrowed slightly to fit the 60V6 crank journal width and a bushing added to the small end to match the 3400 pin diameter. Both of those are simple machine operations that any decent machine shop can do on the cheap. Slightly playing around with the Cometic MLS head gasket thicknesses along with the deck height (depending on whether or not it'll need to be decked) will net me around an 8.7:1 SCR with the "9.5:1" Diamond pistons (their rating is for a stock 3400 stroke. Destroking an engine will lower the SCR by the same percentage as the reduced stroke). The 2.8 crank must be from a DIS 2.8 because of the internal crank trigger. The earlier one (like the stock Fiero 2.8) can be used, but to run DIS with it an external crank trigger setup must be used. The 282 in stock form doesn't like to shift very high, but the reduced MOI of the clutch and smaller crank will raise the limit because the synchros don't have to work as hard to slow down the momentum at those RPM's, and that momentum decrease drops off the RPM's quicker anyway, reducing the synchros need to 'pull down' the RPM itself. Will has a few tricks up his sleeve as well, he's VERY familiar with the inner workings of the 282. Between these mods, I think 7500rpm shifts shouldn't be a problem and I'm hoping it might work to 8000, because the 3200 sure will with the right valvetrain, cam, and porting. Thanks but no thanks on the spare 3500 UIM, I'm keeping the custom modified 3100 UIM. I hear the 3100/3400 UIM's don't flow any less than the 3500's, they're just a bit more peaky than the 3500's. At any rate, I plan on getting it ported so it'll flow very very well. Thanks again for the comments!

I never got around to posting a build thread. The 3100 ran pretty good for about two weeks till I had some bad valvetrain issues caused by my ex-friend machinist who decided to fall in love with Crack while building my heads. Long story short, I didnt get to push the car too hard w/ 3100 in it. The $400 3500 was cheaper than new valves and gaskets and was an excuse to upgrade. The 3500 has been a blast though and is night and day with the 5 speed swap. The turbo is a Toyota CT26 w/ T04E compressor wheel upgrade. Its a little small for the 3500 but would be good for a tgp 3.1L or a 3100. It spools quick! I hit full boost (6psi haha) at like 2800 - 3000rpm. Lots of low-end torque that's for sure. I'm running obd1 ('7730), tune with TunerProRt and a Moates Ostrich2.0 and run $8F code.

Maybe try and find an Al flywheel and crankpulley to reduce MOI and rotating mass. I still dont think that clutch is going to be fun to drive. Thats just my own bias though. You may be able to handle it with ease.

Good luck with your 3200 build. That's a great plan for your build. It seems you have already researched it quite well. I really would love to build a small stroke / big bore 660. Maybe one day I'll build my 3L destroker and stuff it in a Chevette or something FR oriented and lightweight.

I'll keep my eye on this build. I'm curious to see how it turns out.

JoeCooley

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1987 SE / Fastback - 3500 Turdbowd / '92 5-speed swap

No bandwagon here...

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-25-2010).]

Will is on a BMW kick, just ignore him. (Actually, he's dern right)

quote Originally posted by Rallaster: I wish I had the knowledge to understand even half of what you said. Whoa.

LOL, I didn't think I was saying anything too out of the ordinary. I'll explain any/all of it if you want. I could go on forever! If you want to get really confused, talk advanced engine and suspension theory with Will up there!

quote Originally posted by 87_special: I never got around to posting a build thread. The 3100 ran pretty good for about two weeks till I had some bad valvetrain issues caused by my ex-friend machinist who decided to fall in love with Crack while building my heads. Long story short, I didnt get to push the car too hard w/ 3100 in it. The $400 3500 was cheaper than new valves and gaskets and was an excuse to upgrade. The 3500 has been a blast though and is night and day with the 5 speed swap. The turbo is a Toyota CT26 w/ T04E compressor wheel upgrade. Its a little small for the 3500 but would be good for a tgp 3.1L or a 3100. It spools quick! I hit full boost (6psi haha) at like 2800 - 3000rpm. Lots of low-end torque that's for sure. I'm running obd1 ('7730), tune with TunerProRt and a Moates Ostrich2.0 and run $8F code. Maybe try and find an Al flywheel and crankpulley to reduce MOI and rotating mass. I still dont think that clutch is going to be fun to drive. Thats just my own bias though. You may be able to handle it with ease. Good luck with your 3200 build. That's a great plan for your build. It seems you have already researched it quite well. I really would love to build a small stroke / big bore 660. Maybe one day I'll build my 3L destroker and stuff it in a Chevette or something FR oriented and lightweight. I'll keep my eye on this build. I'm curious to see how it turns out. JoeCooley

Crack? Heads? Get it? ...sorry, that was bad.
Ouch, that really sucks! (for you and him.) Thanks for the info. Sounds like the 3500 was the way to go. 6 psi at 2800-3000 sounds like a slow spool to me, heh! I can't wait to find out how the S258 spools on the 3.1. I might have to go with Quad4 gearing or something, heh. That would be real bad for traction once it does spool, though.

Nice tuning setup, sounds familiar. I'll be switching to Code59, though. It's WAY more documented and supports 3-bar which I'll need.

The twin-disk setup comes with everything, flywheel and all. It has to match. While the flywheel isn't aluminum, it does have a low MOI for the same reason as the rest of it, the weight is kept toward the center. I don't think I'd gain anything useful from a smaller crank pulley, but I don't think anything else will be needed! Compared to the rotating mass of the current setup (and yours too), it will be very very 'light'.

Don't let me fool you, I'm very nervous about the manners of the clutch. I think it'll be very difficult to deal with (if I didn't make that clear yet). It'll help if Will and I make a larger slave cylinder like we're talking about, that will increase the available throw of the clutch pedal, making the engagement point somewhat less instant.
Even still, from what I understand, the analogy of a lightswitch is no joke. The Clutch Masters tech told me I'll have to spend many hours in a parking lot just to be able to drive it somewhat competently without stalling it everywhere. He did say that it's not so bad once you get used to it, but that takes a little while and it's still a lot rougher than any organic single will ever be. Though, this one has sintered bronze disks which are said to be less impossible than the sintered iron disks. They'll hold 'less' torque than the iron, but they'll hold every bit that I'll ever make.
I really don't want to have to go there, but I don't know of any 'regular' clutch for the 282 that will even come close to handling the 3200 on 30psi, and 30psi isn't negotiable. That will be fun to drive.

Thanks for the GL on the 3200. I've researched most of what I can research for now, but the current setup will dial me in further. I can't wait!

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 09-26-2010).]

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'10 Camaro LT/RS, 312hp V6 6-speed
'88 Fiero GT - coming soon! - Project MIDTRBO

The rest of my cars are for sale
There's no replacement for turbo placement

Dave, I sent an email. Looking good for the most part.

I found out something annoying the other day. I can't get personalized "MIDTRBO" tags because my car is registered as historic. Small sacrifice, though, for getting to skip inspection and emissions altogether.
Ah well, not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, just kind of a bummer since I've planned that from the beginning.

I've got kind of a secret R&D project that's very cool that I'm thinking heavily about implementing which will greatly benefit MIDTRBO in various areas, as well as others' builds. That's just a teaser for you... Full details if I go ahead, but it'll be a little while because it'll be moderately expensive.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 10-07-2010).]

Today I went to the MAFOA show at Lititz. I almost forgot how small Fieros are! It's been WAY too long, heh. It was nice meeting the 5 or so people I met there (tardiness and social anxiety ), and there were some really nice Fieros.

Afterward I drove over to Harrisburg and picked up the Quarter Master twin-disk setup (with the extra parts for a triple disk) from Coinage. The whole twin setup only weighs 16 lbs! IIRC, that's about the weight of a stock Getrag flywheel without the rest of the clutch, AND the weight of this one is all located near the axis of rotation. I'm going to shave even more weight off of that by upgrading to the aluminum pressure plate. That 3200 should rev like a literbike!

Oh, and here's a bump for the people I mentioned this thread to that sounded interested. *bump*

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 10-23-2010).]

Going through withdrawals again/still so I just have to bump my thread.
It should be very close now, when I talked to Dave last week he was planning on spending all day last Thursday working on it.

If anyone wants my 11-second AWD Talon (that needs work), act now and you can get it for $2000. You won't find that deal anywhere else. The tranny build alone cost $2400, and that was only about 2000 miles ago.

My beater truck is also for sale, practically for free, just needs the top-end gaskets replaced (which I have). I desperately need to make room.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/078820.html

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 10-23-2010).]