88 Coupe 4.9 Swap Thread (Page 19/69)
Dan_Seattle NOV 17, 09:36 AM
Josef,

When my Formula still had the 2.8 in it, it sort of had a similar issue. Hadn't run in over a year, It would fire off the cold start injector or if you sprayed a little fuel down the intake etc. I didn't pull the injectors off, I kept my gas pedal 100% depressed to the floor while trying to start it. It isn't often full fuel pressure is ever delivered to injectors. Believe it or not, it worked. Engine started to stumble, them finally light on it's own and eventually run. The more I flogged the throttle (while driving at this point), the better it continued to run.

Warning though, it puts a little stress on the starter in the begining and in the end, I should have just pulled the injectors and had them all hydrostatically cleaned and tested. But in the end, the engine did run good with the "smash foot to floor" method.
Fieroseverywhere NOV 17, 09:51 AM

quote
Originally posted by Dan_Seattle:

I didn't pull the injectors off, I kept my gas pedal 100% depressed to the floor while trying to start it.



This wont work with a 4.9. With the car off and gas pedal fully pressed (High TPS reading) the PCM puts the car into "clear flood mode" and cuts all fuel delivery.


Dan_Seattle NOV 17, 09:53 AM
Oh well, glad I didn't make him waste time with it then.
Mickey_Moose NOV 17, 10:04 AM
From the 'other' thread:


quote
Originally posted by josef644:

After installing the spark plug wires and adding a battery, I unplugged the fuel pump fuse. Cranked it over until I had oil pressure. Pressure came up after just a few rev's. I poured a tablespoon of gas down each throttle bore. I reach in and turned the key. She hit and ran about 6 seconds. I hit the key again and it ran about 3-4 seconds without adding fuel again. I added some more gas and watched the oil pressure gage this time. It was about half way between 60 and 80 lbs of oil pressure while running. I plugged in the fuel pump fuse and added a test light to the ALDL Turned the key and the light come on for a bit . It comes back on when the starter is cranked over. I ran it about 50- 60 seconds today a litle bit at a time as I don't have a cooling system connected up yet. It would run as long as I kept adding fuel to the T body. I depressed the schrader valve and got a nice shot of gas leaving the fuel rail.

I am 100% sure I have the fuel supply line connected to the port on the right, and not the one that goes to the regulator. It is the return line. Right?

The engine idled fine untill all the fuel is exhausted from the throttle bores.
I will check for injector +12 at C203 'J & K'. If these are good, I'll move outside to the engine bay and see if I have +12 at the injector harness connector.






quote
Originally posted by josef644:
I have a Baker Electronix VATS by pass. And the green Led is on. I also verified the connection to ECM F10. It has to be working or I wouldn't be able to get it to run from the injectors for around 12-15 seconds

Would it help or hinder for me to remove the 8 injectors and put them in a quart of thinner to help get them unstopped?

I like the little test on the injectors you did



In your first post, you mention that it runs only when you add fuel to the throttle body (injectors not firing). Part of the function of the VATS is to disable the fuel system after 2-3 secs after startup - the car will run if force fed, but the injector will not fire (VATS also disables the starter, but this does not apply to the Fiero unless you wired it up as it is in the Caddy with the VATS relay and such). If your car will start (without adding fuel to the throttle body) and stall shortly after, it is most likely a VATS issue. Are you running the correct frequency on the bypass module? I don't recall off hand right now if the 4.9 is running the 50Hz or the 60Hz signal (this may also depend on the year of the program that is in the ECM) - try switching the frequency if your module lets you and try that. I just checked and it seems Rockcrawl has removed that info from his website.

Injectors: Don't use thinner on them, you may damage the insulation on the coils - use injector or carb/throttle body cleaner. Check out Dodgerunner's post here: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/096900.html

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 11-17-2009).]

josef644 NOV 17, 11:20 AM

quote
Originally posted by Mickey_Moose:

In your first post, you mention that it runs only when you add fuel to the throttle body (injectors not firing). Part of the function of the VATS is to disable the fuel system after 2-3 secs after startup - the car will run if force fed, but the injector will not fire (VATS also disables the starter, but this does not apply to the Fiero unless you wired it up as it is in the Caddy with the VATS relay and such). If your car will start (without adding fuel to the throttle body) and stall shortly after, it is most likely a VATS issue. Are you running the correct frequency on the bypass module? I don't recall off hand right now if the 4.9 is running the 50Hz or the 60Hz signal (this may also depend on the year of the program that is in the ECM) - try switching the frequency if your module lets you and try that. I just checked and it seems Rockcrawl has removed that info from his website.

Injectors: Don't use thinner on them, you may damage the insulation on the coils - use injector or carb/throttle body cleaner. Check out Dodgerunner's post here: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/096900.html




Here is my Baker order:
VATS PASSkeyII Bypass
Item# VATS , LED Color: Green , VATS Signal: 30 Hz $25.00 USD 1 $25.00 USD"

And a part of their list of 30 Hz autos
Known PCMs or vehicles that used the 30 Hz VATS:
1993 Camaro (The 88,90 & 92 may or may not be 30Hz)
1990-93 Cadillac Deville (The 89 may or may not be 30Hz)
1993 Oldsmobile 88

So guess you are thinking I need to send the prom to Stickpony to correct the VATS part of the programing?
I have started it off of the injectors and ran it for about 12-14 seconds. I had a real bad miss or maybe more than one miss, and I was having a hard time keeping the engine running.

I thought that if the VATS was the problem, I wouldn't have been able to run it ofer 2-3 seconds before the ECM turned off the fueling

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 11-17-2009).]

josef644 NOV 17, 11:52 AM

quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

You really need to check them at operating pressure with fuel.... since there are several failure modes for injectors: Stuck closed, Stuck open, and partially clogged producing a poor spray pattern and less fuel delivery.

I will have to go back and check some PM's, but a set of 8 rebuilt injectors was around $150.




Mr Injector will do a full rebuild service on my injectors for 128.00
Fieroseverywhere NOV 17, 12:04 PM
90-93 4.9 is 30hz. 94-95 is 60hz. Looks like that is right. Based on how long it ran I'd bete the vats bypass is working correctly. Can't you verify this with a scanner?

You can use two jumper wires (one +12V, one ground) to test each individual injector if you remove the connectors. This will at least tell you if they are firing.

Have you tried the injectors again since fixing the shorting wires?

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 11-17-2009).]

josef644 NOV 17, 12:19 PM
I havent done anything to it since yesterday. I have located the kits for cleaning for $23.00
Mr Injector:
http://www.mrinjector.us/index.html
And

http://www.fuelinjectorconn...?_a=viewCat&catId=50

I can work the injectors wirh two wires to listen for the clicks. I have been reading on the net about flow rate, cleaning etc.
Not sure on the best way to clean these up yet. It seams that washing them off with some gas, and blowing them off is about as effective as one can do at home. Changing the prindle cap, O rings and the filter would be a good idea, and cheap to do.

I am gonna remove the injectors from the rails today and do some type of test to them to check for stopped up or stuck open conditions. I will post my findings afterwards.

I just got off of the phone with Mr Injector. Bill offerd me good suggestions and advise. He is the top link above. He recommends using a Max 8700 Choke and Carb with the little plastic squirt nozzel, and a rubber plug to force the spray inside the injector with the filter screen removed. Apply 9 volts to the connector. This should get it working better than just soaking overniight in a carb cleaner.
His EBay store:
http://stores.ebay.com/Mr-Injector.

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 11-19-2009).]

josef644 NOV 17, 05:58 PM
I removed all 8 injectors from the fuel rails. The rail ends of the injectors had this awful smell and a chocolate brown color on inlet end where the filters insert:
Here is what I used to remove the filters from the inlet on the top:


Just screw in the patented filter remover, and pull it out. I used the side cutters because it was a bit larger and gave me better leverage
A shot of all 8 removed and the patented fuel injection filter remover:


8 injectors ready to be cleaned up and tested sometime tomorrow.


A bit of sour gas was in the top of all 8 injectors

I went to the hardware store an scored me a brass adapter so I can connect the pressure gauge to the fuel rail after I reinstall this mess:
Fieroseverywhere NOV 17, 08:29 PM

quote
Originally posted by josef644:

Just screw in the patented filter remover, and pull it out.



Ha! Thats a classic there!