F40 replica aka "operation turd polish" (Page 16/62)
VanGTP5000 DEC 03, 10:31 AM
Shem,

The car looks great! You are doing fabulous work. I have been working on a stock wheelbase Countach for a lot of years now. I have used many a trick to compensate for the shorter length of the car. Some required cutting and sanding, as you very adeptly jumped on right away. However, some tricks are much more subtle and are used as optical illusions. Or a better way to say it is to distract the eye of the onlooker away from the problem area in question. I have found that in some cases the best way to do that is to direct the eye focus someplace else. For example, I installed metal grill induction vents in a similar location to yours. Just in front of the lower rear wheel well. Even though the real car didn't have these in my case, I think it does a nice job of distraction by calling attention to itself in a tasteful way. You may want to consider painting your lower inductions black. It may have the same effect. Just something to consider.

Keep up the great work!


P.S. If you like the black wheels (they look hot to me) then stick to your guns. I know the Ferrari style ones look more authentic but remember this is YOUR car. Everyone will have an opinion on what to do. You seemed like you where so psyched to have them and then got talked out of it. I know plenty will tell you they scream kitcar. Trust me...these are people who have never gone to the mall in a kitcar like ours. People will love it either way. The important thing is that YOU love it brother!

Regards,
-Van
shemdogg DEC 05, 08:05 PM
Nobodys buggin me I dont mind constructive criticism

Appreciate the kudos!

Def gonna get the rear wheel well lined up, and maybe fill it in closer to the tire when i get my wheels

Nobody but me talked me outta those black wheels but me. They were never going to fit 5x130, and waaay too big in the front. I just wanted to see how new style wheels would look. The 20s are too big it makes the car look short.

I hear ya about distracting the eye, but really 95% of people wont know that extra 3" isnt possed to be there. The right size, right stanced wheel will be all the distraction. Either way its gonna be a sweet lookin ride when done.

still got tons o small details to work out, then finish the door windows. Hafta do that at the machine shop n I have no free time- works insane right now

N yes I love it, im building it for me, n im gonna keep it

its just gonna take awhile to finish polishing, thats a huge turd lol

shem

heres a real stock one for sale 10 mins from me
https://sfbay.craigslist.or...-f40/6378881589.html

N a polished turd (nicer kit than mine tho)- that things been on there forever. The best a kit can look w amidas interior
https://sfbay.craigslist.or...itle/6396138773.html
that nose is yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggggggggggggggggeeeee
shemdogg DEC 05, 08:09 PM
Just noticed the kit car doesnt have the trunk back window

was that ferrobis old car?


shem
IMSA GT DEC 05, 08:19 PM

quote
Originally posted by shemdogg:

Just noticed the kit car doesnt have the trunk back window

was that ferrobis old car?


shem



In that last photo of the rear of the car, it appears that there is a channel for the rear glass but it is missing.
Rn2016 DEC 06, 06:26 AM

quote
Originally posted by shemdogg:

Nobodys buggin me I dont mind constructive criticism

Appreciate the kudos!

Def gonna get the rear wheel well lined up, and maybe fill it in closer to the tire when i get my wheels

Nobody but me talked me outta those black wheels but me. They were never going to fit 5x130, and waaay too big in the front. I just wanted to see how new style wheels would look. The 20s are too big it makes the car look short.

I hear ya about distracting the eye, but really 95% of people wont know that extra 3" isnt possed to be there. The right size, right stanced wheel will be all the distraction. Either way its gonna be a sweet lookin ride when done.

still got tons o small details to work out, then finish the door windows. Hafta do that at the machine shop n I have no free time- works insane right now

N yes I love it, im building it for me, n im gonna keep it

its just gonna take awhile to finish polishing, thats a huge turd lol

shem

heres a real stock one for sale 10 mins from me
https://sfbay.craigslist.or...-f40/6378881589.html

N a polished turd (nicer kit than mine tho)- that things been on there forever. The best a kit can look w amidas interior
https://sfbay.craigslist.or...itle/6396138773.html
that nose is yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggggggggggggggggeeeee



As usual no full on side pictures. Only 3/4 pictures. Pretty much every for sale add of a replica on stock Fiero frame never posts a side picture. Because that gives away the shorter wheelbase. I think it's a way of misleading people. If anybody is driving to see it they should show it. If I wouldn't know about the problems that Fiero replicas have with the wheelbase, and would drive any longer amount to see a car, and found out it looks like a gokart from the side when I got there, I would be really angry and I would let him know it too. Just be honest. Not too much to ask in business.

I think with the mods you have done and are doing your car will look much nicer when finished.
355Fiero DEC 06, 03:56 PM
Shemdog;

I have been watching the progress and you are doingsome great work. For your 3" question, I have some thoughts. I found a couple things with these F40 kits on Fieros that throw me off.

  1. The height of the F40 doors/sides on these kits are taller than the original so the side looks bigger and that catches people's eye.
  2. The rear quarter section between the rear door jamb and rear wheel looks too short
  3. The front nose on these kits is just too long.



To address those items, it takes an enormous amount of work as all the panels are curved etc. Also, frame wise, it is just impossible in some cases.

  1. You have done an amazing job on the front nose to address that item. Looks great and really improves the look.
  2. The height of the sides is a tougher egg to crack. It ca be done by raising the rocker panel by about 1.5" and shortening the Fiero door and quarters by the same amount. You need to put a new door jamb plate in place and a new door rubber seal mounting tab but it can be done. I did that on my 355 project on a Fiero so the rockers were not too low. A lot of work but possible
  3. The last one for the rear quarter. You can address bunch of that area by moving your cradle back a couple inches easily without cutting frames etc. by moving the cradle mounting points and keeping the stock cradle mount position. You then cut the rear quarter area just behind the lower side scoop and move the full rear quarter back the same amount to centre the wheelwell. You can also make a call at that time to lengthen the side scoops as they are also a bit short but again, more work involved.



Without shortening the sides you will always have a slightly taller car and that proportion will be out but not that big of deal. Lengthening the rear quarter does make a big difference in the side look as it helps flow in all the slight differences in the car side height, length etc. and flows a bit better) The major issue with this rear quarter lengthen, you need to deal with the rather sloped angles etc. of the rear engine plexi cover. Make a call on lengthening the area in front of the rear hatch or rearrange the slope of the rear glass to accommodate the new angles with the extra length.

All options but nothing is free as it is all work. I took a side shot and added the area i am talking about and will get a pic up here later with PIP so you can see what I am talking about.

Everything you are doing is great so keep it up. Good luck and keep posting updates.

Cheers
Don
Rn2016 DEC 06, 06:05 PM

quote
Originally posted by 355Fiero:
The last one for the rear quarter. You can address bunch of that area by moving your cradle back a couple inches easily without cutting frames etc. by moving the cradle mounting points and keeping the stock cradle mount position. You then cut the rear quarter area just behind the lower side scoop and move the full rear quarter back the same amount to centre the wheelwell.



You have some good ideas to address the problem areas. But I'm not sure I understood the above. How can you move the cradle mounting points while keeping the stock cradle mount position? I'm thinking that you will have to cut and weld something here in the process? If cutting and welding is involved, is it really that much easier than just stretching the chassis already to gain the exact 3" needed? I'm thinking I totally misunderstood what you meant.
355Fiero DEC 06, 07:48 PM
Good question;

The way to get a 3" or less stretch on a cradle is to move the mounting points on the cradle itself forward by the 3". The frame mounting points remain the same and the cradle adjusts. It is WAY easier to move cradle mounting points than it is to move frame mounting points by cutting and stretching the frame. In the end with a frame stretch, you end up needing to add material to the front of the cradle anyway to stretch the front cradle mounts forward.

It has been proven that if you are using a stock Fiero engine drive line, you don't even need to remove the trunk firewall. It is just quite close to it so most people do.

I had thought a couple times about doing an F40 build but have enough other projects that I want to do more.... Finish my 308 replica build and then start on my custom Countach build.....

Thanks
Don
Rn2016 DEC 06, 08:58 PM

quote
Originally posted by 355Fiero:

Good question;

The way to get a 3" or less stretch on a cradle is to move the mounting points on the cradle itself forward by the 3". The frame mounting points remain the same and the cradle adjusts. It is WAY easier to move cradle mounting points than it is to move frame mounting points by cutting and stretching the frame. In the end with a frame stretch, you end up needing to add material to the front of the cradle anyway to stretch the front cradle mounts forward.

It has been proven that if you are using a stock Fiero engine drive line, you don't even need to remove the trunk firewall. It is just quite close to it so most people do.

I had thought a couple times about doing an F40 build but have enough other projects that I want to do more.... Finish my 308 replica build and then start on my custom Countach build.....

Thanks
Don



Thanks for the explanation.

OK. So I was correct. It does involve cutting and welding. I guess you do need to cut the mounting points on the cradle from where they are. I wouldn't think they are bolted on? And then weld them forward by 3". Is that right? Just trying to picture the whole thing.

But so the cradle has extra length on the front that you can move the mounting points? Or do you need to add a piece to the cradle's front? If not, then it indeed sounds quite a bit easier than stretching the frame.

But what about structural strength? The cradle was not engineered to sit so far backwards. Will that affect the car's dynamics?

This would effective increase the wheelbase without increasing the length of the car, as the cradle would only move within the frame. So if the length needed to be increased, a frame extension would have to be added after the trunk. If you do that, you have basically stretched the frame without stretching the frame, if you know what I mean. Unless you don't need the extra length.
355Fiero DEC 07, 03:18 PM
Rn2016;

You are correct in all aspects.

The rear cradle mounts are rubber based inserts that hold the cradle between two pieces, up and down. You add material to the front side of the metal cradle mounting frame and move the hole forward by the amount you want to shift the cradle backwards. You can either get solid aluminium mounts from Rodney to increase stiffness or reuse stock mounts. I, actually, welded new solid mounts to the tops of my cradle rear mounting platforms so I have a solid surface to mate to the frame.

The front cradle mount is cut just behind the mount hole in the cradle and material is added to the cradle frame rails to move the front mount forward by 3" as well. In all the work that many people have done over the years, there hasn't been any issues with the extended front cradle mounts being wieaker or introducing twist as the length is pretty minimal. The longer stretches for Lambos etc. where 10 or 11" is required, it is recommended to do reinforcing in the cradle.

With this setup, the trunk area remains the same so you are also correct that the support area behind the trunk in Shemdogg's pics above, would also be moved back 3" to support the rear hatch and bumper etc.

The reasoning around doing the cradle itself is that you don't introduce fundamental changes to the frame itself. You will have different geometry for suspension etc. with the 3" stretch but again, history has proved that moving the rear back by 3" hasn't introduced any noticeable issues with the ride or cornering.

The bigger changes on these projects tends to be the changes in the suspension geometry by widening the control arms by several inches to put the wheels in the proper location in the wheel wells. This introduces a big difference depending on width increase and Bloozberry has an outstanding thread somewhere on here going through a very extensive evaluation of suspension geometry and what he did to improve the suspension dynamics. That change is not for the light of heart though.

Now, back to Shemdogg and updates....

Cheers
Don