Maximum helpful front camber for racing? (Page 1/5)
Additivewalnut FEB 15, 08:20 PM
This is mainly for the autox or track day guys, but what's the most reasonable amount of camber to run in the front of an 86? I'm thinking about getting the WCF adjustable upper control arms since my slotted ball joints only gave me about a degree of negative. Doesn't seem like enough, doesn't really feel like enough since I've still got some gnarly understeer issues. The sway bar helped a ton but it still feels like my turn in is really lazy and most of the time it just plows. This car is race only at this point, so I'm not worried about streetable it most likely won't be.

Current upgrades:
Hiro Performance coilovers
poly everything
Fiero Store rear sway bar
235-40-17 Falken RT660 tires all around
Additivewalnut FEB 15, 08:22 PM
Also, while digging through old posts. I did read that putting a bunch of positive caster in seems to help? Patrick you're my life line here.
olejoedad FEB 15, 08:39 PM

quote
Originally posted by Additivewalnut:

This is mainly for the autox or track day guys, but what's the most reasonable amount of camber to run in the front of an 86? I'm thinking about getting the WCF adjustable upper control arms since my slotted ball joints only gave me about a degree of negative. Doesn't seem like enough, doesn't really feel like enough since I've still got some gnarly understeer issues. The sway bar helped a ton but it still feels like my turn in is really lazy and most of the time it just plows. This car is race only at this point, so I'm not worried about streetable it most likely won't be.

Current upgrades:
Hiro Performance coilovers
poly everything
Fiero Store rear sway bar
235-40-17 Falken RT660 tires all around



Fiero.store front sway bar will help with the understeer.
Additivewalnut FEB 15, 08:44 PM

quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:


Fiero.store front sway bar will help with the understeer.



Wasn't that the point of the rear bar?
Patrick FEB 15, 11:40 PM

quote
Originally posted by Additivewalnut:

The sway bar helped a ton but it still feels like my turn in is really lazy and most of the time it just plows.



When I first started autocrossing years ago, I drove my completely stock '84, and it plowed through the corners terribly. I then lowered the car by cutting the springs all around (which also necessitated shortening the front bump stops by cutting, shortening, and then rewelding the metal cones), and I also installed a front sway bar in the back with stock (rubber) end links and bushings, but with zero lash end links in the front.

This all made a humungous difference with how the car cornered at autocross. If I went into a corner too fast, the car would just four-wheel drift sideways, very neutral... no plowing or having the rear end trying to pass the front. The '84 felt totally under control, to the point where I never felt as comfortable with my Formula when I started using it for autocross.

To address your main question, on my '84 I just had the front ball joints installed whatever way it was that gave the maximum camber... and with the other suspension mods, the car handled great.

If your '86 is still plowing through the corners, it seems that possibly the Fiero Store rear sway bar isn't stiff enough? (I don't know how its stiffness compares to a factory front sway bar.)

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-15-2025).]

Brian A FEB 16, 12:03 AM

quote
Originally posted by Additivewalnut:

This is mainly for the autox or track day guys, but what's the most reasonable amount of camber to run in the front of an 86? I'm thinking about getting the WCF adjustable upper control arms since my slotted ball joints only gave me about a degree of negative. Doesn't seem like enough, doesn't really feel like enough since I've still got some gnarly understeer issues. The sway bar helped a ton but it still feels like my turn in is really lazy and most of the time it just plows. This car is race only at this point, so I'm not worried about streetable it most likely won't be.

Current upgrades:
Hiro Performance coilovers
poly everything
Fiero Store rear sway bar
235-40-17 Falken RT660 tires all around


I put 3.5 degrees of front camber into my street-legal track car (a 1987 GT) and found the car seemed to tramline and wander. In my opinion, -3.5 degrees is too much, but this is on street driving. Ultimately, I had the car set to the maximum camber Robert Wagoneer recommends in his book "High Performance Fieros" which is -1.7 degrees. The car handles well with this setting and seems to have a nice handling balance on the track although I also have much wider tires, non-factory springs and swaybars.

Here are a few more details:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/148204.html

Regarding which swaybar does what, you are correct that stiffening the front swaybar (relative to rear) causes more understeer. FWIW, I have a (calculated) 400 lb/in front swaybar (Fiero Store) and a (calculated) 200 lb/in rear swaybar (not a factory front bar, but about the same dimensions) (It came with the car). This seems to balance the car quite nicely just as Patrick has achieved with his car. I have Suspension Technology springs front and rear but I don't know the spring rates (they came with the car). Again: sorry, this may not have general applicability because of my tire widths and non-factory springs.
Additivewalnut FEB 16, 12:43 AM

quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

When I first started autocrossing years ago, I drove my completely stock '84, and it plowed through the corners terribly. I then lowered the car by cutting the springs all around (which also necessitated shortening the front bump stops by cutting, shortening, and then rewelding the metal cones), and I also installed a front sway bar in the back with stock (rubber) end links and bushings, but with zero lash end links in the front.

This all made a humungous difference with how the car cornered at autocross. If I went into a corner too fast, the car would just four-wheel drift sideways, very neutral... no plowing or having the rear end trying to pass the front. The '84 felt totally under control, to the point where I never felt as comfortable with my Formula when I started using it for autocross.

To address your main question, on my '84 I just had the front ball joints installed whatever way it was that gave the maximum camber... and with the other suspension mods, the car handled great.

If your '86 is still plowing through the corners, it seems that possibly the Fiero Store rear sway bar isn't stiff enough? (I don't know how its stiffness compares to a factory front sway bar.)




Hypothetically, the Fiero store bar should be stiffer? It's thicker and I'm assuming one equals the other. I've found that if I take a turn just the right way after installing the bar, it's far more likely to swap ends.

I'm on short springs, cut bumpstops... Only thing that's different here is I'm using poly end links on the front. Do zero lash links really make that big of a difference? I guess I'm not really sure I understand what the point of those are. That and camber. I'm pretty sure one of my slotted ball joints is in backwards and not giving nearly as much camber as it could be.
Additivewalnut FEB 16, 01:22 AM
I impulse bought some end links. Knowing my luck if I wait until tomorrow, Rodney will sell out of em.

Best case theyll be that last little touch to make the car turn in faster.
Worst case they're better than poly end links.
Brian A FEB 16, 09:12 AM

quote
Originally posted by Additivewalnut:Do zero lash links really make that big of a difference?



I've been wondering that too. I have them installed on the front and own a set for the rear but currently just have polys in the rear.

As far as I can figure, and I am just speculating, the solid endlinks affect turn-in transition. They immediately transfer the spring force of the swaybar to the tire unlike a poly or rubber bushing which needs to compress before they begin to load the tire.

I have trouble imagining this is significant, but Mike Meier (a National SCCA autocross champion) once described to me how he sometimes drills holes in poly bushings to soften them or even loosens the bolts to give them slop. He does this to slow swaybar pressure application.

That may just be foo far above my skill level to notice something that subtle. I need to put more track time on the car before I change to the solid rear endlinks to see if I notice the difference. I CAN notice the difference in rear shock rebound settings, which is doing the same thing at turn-in transition (i.e. affecting the rate at which spring pressure is applied to the tire).
Additivewalnut FEB 16, 10:47 AM

quote
Originally posted by Brian A:


I've been wondering that too. I have them installed on the front and own a set for the rear but currently just have polys in the rear.

As far as I can figure, and I am just speculating, the solid endlinks affect turn-in transition. They immediately transfer the spring force of the swaybar to the tire unlike a poly or rubber bushing which needs to compress before they begin to load the tire.

I have trouble imagining this is significant, but Mike Meier (a National SCCA autocross champion) once described to me how he sometimes drills holes in poly bushings to soften them or even loosens the bolts to give them slop. He does this to slow swaybar pressure application.

That may just be foo far above my skill level to notice something that subtle. I need to put more track time on the car before I change to the solid rear endlinks to see if I notice the difference. I CAN notice the difference in rear shock rebound settings, which is doing the same thing at turn-in transition (i.e. affecting the rate at which spring pressure is applied to the tire).



I'll do my best to update once they're installed. It would make sense that it would stiffen the front up just that little bit more.