3.8L SC Series III - Engine Swap Advice Anyone? (Page 1/3)
87PF-GT JUL 13, 09:22 PM
Hi all, just joined this Forum few weeks ago. Hoping to get some sound advice...

So just bought an 87 Fiero GT (5spd) about two months back. Am looking to get the engine swapped now. After ample of reading, it seemed that going with 3.8L V6 SC Series III engine gives you more upgrade options, comes with 260HP stock and the engine is reliable. So with that being said, I've just purchased one complete engine assembly for 3.8L V6 SC Series III.

Wondering if anyone can help out with this project as I'm looking to get over 325HP + (400HP would be sweet but not really sure if it would be possible without changing the pistons, Turbo, etc which I don't want to do at this time. But will later on). Also, for now will be using the 87 Getrag282 Transmission with this. Or should I change this? And if so, which one do you suggest?

Overall, if anyone can tell me what needs to be done hardware wise in order to...

- Achieve this goal of 325HP + (without having to Turbo or Change Pistons)
- Change the pulleys to 3.4?
- Which Spec Clutch Series should I go with (Series 3 Plus or 4 Plus) with later on long term goal of over 400HP?
- Where can I purchase RELIABLE Engine/Transmission Mounts, Flywheel (Cast)?
- Also, I understand I need to get a Series II ECU (OBD II) for this as Series III ECU won't work effeciently???
- Which exhaust to go with?

I don't plan on taking this to the track or anything. Just want to enjoy this as a Street car and a little race here and there.

Really appreciate it, Cheers!
hnthomps JUL 14, 11:37 AM
First comment is that I do not think that it will be easy to make the 325 HP with a totally stock 3800 SC Series III. The standard engine uses a drive by wire and an auto transmission. You can convert to a cable operated throttle without a lot of effort and the engine directly mates to the Getrag 282 manual transmission with the correct thickness flywheel. There is some basis for my statement since I do own a 3800 SC Series III engine running in a Mera. My engine uses a VS cam, TOG headers, N* TV, Larger diameter air intake and exhaust tubing, 3.4" pulley, intercooler, ZZP fuel logs, and a relatively conservative tune pointed more toward reliability that absolute performance. The dyno on this engine indicated around 300 HP and 300 Ft Lbs of torque at the wheels when using a Getrag 282 transmission.

My current transmission makes use of a McLeod sintered iron clutch but I would recommend a SPEC Stage 3 Plus for performance and reliability. My ECU is a custom programed Series II ECU and I have oversized air intake and exhaust tubing.

The stock engine is supposed to produce 260 HP at the crank. With my setup I am fairly certain that I could get in excess of 325 HP at the wheels if I modified the tune, changed the cam, and used a 3.0" pulley. Since I drive the car a lot, I went for enhanced reliability instead of maximizing HP and I am quite happy with the final results.





Nelson

[This message has been edited by hnthomps (edited 07-15-2021).]

Dennis LaGrua JUL 14, 12:31 PM
Can you make 325HP at the wheels? Its certainly possible but IMO finding the right combination of parts that will get you there is the key. Then you may want to consider gasoline mileage and reliability as well.
My preference is to run an early LS1 MAF, N* throttle body 3" exhaust and 11 psi of intercooled boost. Probably doesn't get to 300 HP but offers reliability and mileage. My setup is a series III run with series II powertrain management (2003 GTP PCM)


If I were to set out to make 325 HP it would be porting/polishing the heads, forged pistons, a race cam, everything that I have right now and a smaller supercharger pulley. ZZ Performance can give you the right formula.
As for your transmission choice; it is certain that your power goal far exceeds the design limits of the Getrag. It will not hold up pushing that type of power into it. I know three owners that fried their Getrag boxes with the 3800SC, two were stock engines. The F40 will most likely work.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 07-16-2021).]

87PF-GT JUL 15, 09:29 PM
Hey guys, thanks for info.

Nelson, thanks for sharing the photos. The engines looks nicely done. Looks clean. Which Series II ECU are you using? Is there a specific one that is good to go with?

Dennis, thanks for the info. Yeah, that's what I figured... I'd have to change the pistons, port/polishing the heads, cam change, etc. I was trying to avoid doing that for now. If I can get to 300HP without doing all that, then that would be sweet!

Gents, I guess I need to get a Series II ECU. Did you guys get it programmed or do it yourself? Where can i get it done? I'm in Canada.

Any tips on avoiding any vibrations, heating issues?

Thanks Gents. Really appreciate it!
87PF-GT JUL 16, 04:17 PM
Hi Dennis, I just saw your engine photos on my laptop. For some odd reason, they did not load on my phone. Anyhow, nicely done!

You mentioned.... "As for your transmission choice; it is certain that your power goal far exceeds the design limits of the Getrag." I'm assuming the Getrag should be good to handle up to 300HP and 300 lbs of Torque. Or is that not so???

I figured, I'd change the Transmission later on when I start to pursue 400HP + with Turbo, changing to Forge Pistosn, Porting, etc.

Just learning as I go along. Thanks again!
Dennis LaGrua JUL 17, 11:12 AM

quote
Originally posted by 87PF-GT:

Hi Dennis, I just saw your engine photos on my laptop. For some odd reason, they did not load on my phone. Anyhow, nicely done!

You mentioned.... "As for your transmission choice; it is certain that your power goal far exceeds the design limits of the Getrag." I'm assuming the Getrag should be good to handle up to 300HP and 300 lbs of Torque. Or is that not so???

I figured, I'd change the Transmission later on when I start to pursue 400HP + with Turbo, changing to Forge Pistosn, Porting, etc.

Just learning as I go along. Thanks again!



The Getrag was designed for a maximum torque of 200 ft lbs. It is a light duty gearbox. In contrast the F40 (6 speed) was designed for 295 ft lbs. Big difference there. Some owners are having good success with the F23 5 speed and with the LSD mod they seem quite strong. I guess choice of manual trans will depend on how you intend to use it. For street all the transmissions seem to work fine for the occasional power burst but for street/strip that is a different story. If I were to do another stick swap the F23 w the Spec stage 3 would be my choice but I am an automatic man that programs the performance and shift points right from the PCM program,.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

87PF-GT JUL 19, 10:34 PM
Hi Dennis,

So I’ve ordered a Spec Stage 3+ Clutch. Just trying to decide which Flywheel to go with? Any suggestions and which vendor?

For the F23 5 spd, which car should I be looking to get this out of?

Which Series II ECU are you using? Is there a specific one that is good to go with? And where can I get it programmed?

Thank you
VanGTP5000 JUL 20, 06:04 AM
You should definitely look into Sinister Performance! They did my 2003 L67 PCM and tuned it for my L32 similarly to both of the above mentioned excellent builds (as I wanted reliability over raw performance).

Sounds like the ZZP Modular pulley system is a must for you! That way you can go up easily as you progress.

Don’t forget to upgrade your brakes. At minimum the Grand Am Big Brake upgrade (read more about it in search).
And I wouldn’t leave out a Sardonyx Brake Booster upgrade either if your are planning on making the type of power you mentioned.

Best Regards,
Van

[This message has been edited by VanGTP5000 (edited 07-28-2021).]

VanGTP5000 JUL 20, 06:13 AM
87PF-GT JUL 20, 10:36 PM
Thanks Van for the brake booster upgrade suggestion. Definitely will be doing that.

Man, your Supercharger looks like its painted chrome almost. What paint did you use? I like the fact you guys have kept the engine looking clean, painted nicely. I'm looking at perhaps doing like a gun metal type. Not sure yet???

As for the Modular Pulley System what size are you suggesting?
https://zzperformance.com/p...odular-pulley-system

For the Supercharger Pulley, 3.4 seems to be the size people go with.
https://zzperformance.com/p..._sid=78312c37d&_ss=r

Where did you get the dogbone for your engine?

Thanks to all for your inputs, Cheers!