torque steer/alignment/mounts?? (Page 1/4)
fierce_gt SEP 22, 08:33 PM
So recently purchased a new 88gt that has been 'restored'. everything on it looks really good, and i've never owned a fiero that started and ran so well. but, it's not without it's issues.

here's the next one i want to deal with. i notice this most at highway speeds, let's say above 80km/h, but it's present below that speed too. when i floor it, the car pulls to the left, and when i let off the gas it jerks back to the right.

here's what i've 'tested' so far
-visual inspection of suspension/steering. everything appears ok, but i did not pull the wheels off, or get in too deep. just a quick inspection to make sure nothing was dangling
-per a suggestion i read online, i tried revving and letting off the throttle while the car was in neutral (still coasting at speed on the highway). there was zero pull.
-with the car parked, i revved the motor while watching for any movement. it didn't budge at all, looks like mounts are solid
-the car seems to drift slightly to the right, but certainly no more than other fieros i've had before.
-there is a little play in the steering, but again, i think a pretty typical amount for the car. I remember thinking my 85gt and 86se were 'two hand steering only' above 100km/h.


i think there's a couple things going on here. one, i think i've gotten used to modern vehicles over the past 15yrs since i last daily drove a fiero, but there's more to it than that. I don't remember flooring it ever feeling like this, and letting off the gas can actually be a pretty scary experience right now. My thought is possibly an alignment issue, and i suppose it wouldn't be a bad idea to have one done anyway, since the car is new to me. But is there something else i should check first?

also, i'm curious how you all find your fiero compares to a more modern vehicle. The last time i drove a fiero, i think the newest vehicle i had driven was a 96 cavalier. my memory was always that the fiero felt really solid, and completely stable up until around 100-110km/h. Above that, the vibration in the steering wheel kinda made my hands numb after a few minutes. Right now, i'm not really enjoying the driving experience. My other vehicle is a 2014 mazda6 gt. the fiero still seems ok at slower speeds, but on the highway it's a bit exhausting. I feel like if i stop paying attention i'm going to end up in a ditch. I just really used to love these cars. And now i've got an 88 in really clean shape, that runs beautifully, and yet, is less fun to drive than my practical car. i really want to get this sorted out so i can enjoy it again!
fieroguru SEP 22, 08:58 PM
The most common cause of this behavior on an 88 is the long lateral link bolt being loose.
olejoedad SEP 22, 10:54 PM
I second what fieroguru stated.
An alignment check certainly wouldn't hurt.
Any idea how old the shocks, struts and tires are?
My Formula (and other peoples Fieros) is very stable at well over 100 MPH.
cvxjet SEP 22, 11:10 PM
I had this exact problem......I have an 85 SE V6 converted to 88 rear suspension- I was trying to see what could be wrong- inspected everything...Finally noticed that one of the struts had a little greasy spot on it like it was leaking.....Took it off (KYB GR2 Gas Strut) and compressed it- did not return up....All the gas + oil had drained out of it.

Loosing the gas pressure is like A) Changing the spring rate and B) makes the shock not work properly.

Check your struts- I can't remember which one it was vs the pull right/left under accel/decel......
fierce_gt SEP 23, 01:42 AM

quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The most common cause of this behavior on an 88 is the long lateral link bolt being loose.



quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

I second what fieroguru stated.
An alignment check certainly wouldn't hurt.
Any idea how old the shocks, struts and tires are?
My Formula (and other peoples Fieros) is very stable at well over 100 MPH.



thanks guys, i'll look into this

tires are practically brand new (195/65R15 front, 215/60R15 rear if that matters)
shocks and struts would be a complete guess, they don't look factory(have a white case) and seem to pass the 'bounce test' (if i push down at a corner, it settles back to normal height in one bounce). the car appears to have less than 5000kms since it was restored, but i didn't buy it from the person who did the restoration, so i'm not sure how many new parts were put on vs used parts.


quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

I had this exact problem......I have an 85 SE V6 converted to 88 rear suspension- I was trying to see what could be wrong- inspected everything...Finally noticed that one of the struts had a little greasy spot on it like it was leaking.....Took it off (KYB GR2 Gas Strut) and compressed it- did not return up....All the gas + oil had drained out of it.

Loosing the gas pressure is like A) Changing the spring rate and B) makes the shock not work properly.

Check your struts- I can't remember which one it was vs the pull right/left under accel/decel......


i guess these will be something i need to check when i'm looking at the lateral link bolt. thank you
fierce_gt SEP 25, 09:27 PM
looking for some more guidance here...

i put the car up on jacks and got the wheels out of the way to have a look, and i don't really know what i'm looking for. Everything looks ok, nothing 'wobbles' or has any play in it that i can tell. I snapped a bunch of pics, that may be totally useless, but I don't know. Does anything look out of place? Can somebody direct me towards the parts i need to specifically check and how to check them?

Driver's Side





Passenger's Side
cvxjet SEP 26, 01:07 AM
I am willing to bet it is a leaky strut; Take them off and test them both- You can rent/borrow a spring compressor (to remove the springs from the struts) at PartsSource.......The two big bolts that hold the strut to the spindle are 15/16" and, when re-installing them, should be torqued to 140 Lb/Ft. Mark the position of the bolts/washers with a scribe so you can align them (Camber) when re-installing. (By the way, the struts/springs unbolt and come off the car as a unit, (Right & left)

Push each one (Without the spring) down and then see how it returns- should come back up to full extension relatively quickly- if it stays down, there is your problem...

I don't see anything particularly wrong in your pics- old and dirty, but no glaring problems...

[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 09-26-2019).]

theogre SEP 26, 02:51 AM
when you have "torque steer" etc you must look at the whole car very carefully.
Because many things including problems on the other axle can "fake" a bogus torque/bump steering problems.

Pictures of suspension often doesn't help much because many problems are not easy to see even looking directly.
Example: Many bushing w/ internal sheaves, external shells or both can have hidden problems.
Outer shells can rust out in a hard to see area.
Inner sheaves or bushing themselves can have problems too. 20+ year old Rubber can get soft or bad but Worse if you have Polly in the Control Arms and related because that can wear out the centers in a few years or faster and w/o making noise.

IOW May need to use mirrors, bore scope, etc. to look at some parts or areas of a given part but may not help even w/ that.
I had 1 outer shell rotten and can't see the bad spot until LCA was remove from the car. Between LCA shape and car's frame was near impossible to see the rust spot in the car. That one bad spot allow the LCA to move under braking loads and try to steer the car w/o being obvious thru steering wheel etc.

Note that if the car has been lowered... Problems w/ shocks struts and ball joints are very common and many not be easy to see. "Standard" Bounce tests for shocks/struts are often useless and more so w/ good bushings because will act as shocks/struts for the amount you generate trying to do this "test."

Iffy brakes can fake suspension problems too.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 09-26-2019).]

wftb SEP 26, 05:49 PM
I think the bolt that comes loose on 88's is the lowest one on the bottom of the spindle on each side. But I am not an 88 guy but all Fiero's use the same strut assembly and a common problem is the strut bolts do not get torqued properly when the struts get replaced.They are supposed to be torqued at 165Lbs, but most shops just crank them on with wrenches. I was at a pick and pull today to grab a couple of struts and I was armed with a breaker bar, 4' piece of pipe and a propane torch. When I looked at the bolts they were not factory strut bolts and they came loose with no effort at all, didn't even use the breaker bar. Get a torque wrench and check all the bolts, most people that work on these cars have no idea what they are doing.

------------------
86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
QA1 coilovers on tube arms

fierce_gt SEP 26, 08:36 PM

quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

I am willing to bet it is a leaky strut; Take them off and test them both- You can rent/borrow a spring compressor (to remove the springs from the struts) at PartsSource.......The two big bolts that hold the strut to the spindle are 15/16" and, when re-installing them, should be torqued to 140 Lb/Ft. Mark the position of the bolts/washers with a scribe so you can align them (Camber) when re-installing. (By the way, the struts/springs unbolt and come off the car as a unit, (Right & left)

Push each one (Without the spring) down and then see how it returns- should come back up to full extension relatively quickly- if it stays down, there is your problem...

I don't see anything particularly wrong in your pics- old and dirty, but no glaring problems...



at this time, i'm not wanting to remove the strut assemblies unless i see a good reason to. I've done that before and very carefully marked everything, and the car was nearly undriveable when i put it back together(i did also lower it at the time, so that must have contributing to the alignment issue) so i'm going to avoid doing that for now. If i remove them, then i will 100% need to get an alignment done, imo.

funny how different areas impact vehicles, i thought the underside looked amazingly clean, haha


quote
Originally posted by theogre:

when you have "torque steer" etc you must look at the whole car very carefully.
Because many things including problems on the other axle can "fake" a bogus torque/bump steering problems.

Pictures of suspension often doesn't help much because many problems are not easy to see even looking directly.
Example: Many bushing w/ internal sheaves, external shells or both can have hidden problems.
Outer shells can rust out in a hard to see area.
Inner sheaves or bushing themselves can have problems too. 20+ year old Rubber can get soft or bad but Worse if you have Polly in the Control Arms and related because that can wear out the centers in a few years or faster and w/o making noise.

IOW May need to use mirrors, bore scope, etc. to look at some parts or areas of a given part but may not help even w/ that.
I had 1 outer shell rotten and can't see the bad spot until LCA was remove from the car. Between LCA shape and car's frame was near impossible to see the rust spot in the car. That one bad spot allow the LCA to move under braking loads and try to steer the car w/o being obvious thru steering wheel etc.

Note that if the car has been lowered... Problems w/ shocks struts and ball joints are very common and many not be easy to see. "Standard" Bounce tests for shocks/struts are often useless and more so w/ good bushings because will act as shocks/struts for the amount you generate trying to do this "test."

Iffy brakes can fake suspension problems too.


i believe everything to be 'stock', although clearly some parts have been replaced, i don't think anything has been done to lower the vehicle.
I wasn't too hopeful with the pics, but figured I needed a place to start. nothing is 'loose' in that i can't wiggle anything, turn anything, or notice any play in anything. I don't really have experience with diagnosing anything with the suspension though. My experience is basically just replacing springs with lowering springs on an 85. It worked before i started, it needed an alignment after i finished.

i'm curious about the comment regarding brakes. When i noticed the pulling, i did try stomping hard on the brakes to see if the car pulled during braking as well, and it didn't seem to. I'm only noticing the issue when the vehicle is in drive and i either accelerate hard, or let off the gas while accelerating hard. Braking hard, or light acceleration seems to be fine. i figured this meant it probably was not the brakes

quote
Originally posted by wftb:

I think the bolt that comes loose on 88's is the lowest one on the bottom of the spindle on each side. But I am not an 88 guy but all Fiero's use the same strut assembly and a common problem is the strut bolts do not get torqued properly when the struts get replaced.They are supposed to be torqued at 165Lbs, but most shops just crank them on with wrenches. I was at a pick and pull today to grab a couple of struts and I was armed with a breaker bar, 4' piece of pipe and a propane torch. When I looked at the bolts they were not factory strut bolts and they came loose with no effort at all, didn't even use the breaker bar. Get a torque wrench and check all the bolts, most people that work on these cars have no idea what they are doing.




this one was 'restored' by an old retired guy with a passion for fieros. apparently it's his hobby, he rebuilds one or two a year. the stuff that's easy to see, looks pretty good. everything looks like the guy is taking pride in his work. i don't want to read too much into it, but i am be cautious with how much i mess with because honestly i'm worried about making it worse. I am certainly enjoying working on a vehicle again, and this one is in FAR cleaner shape than any other fiero i've owned. Most of them couldn't be worked on in a day, because you needed to spray penetrating oil on the bolts at least a day in advance or you were more likely to snap the bolt than remove it.

that being said, i have sprayed penetrating oil on all the suspension bolts in anticipation for the weekend.