A/C -R12 Questions (Page 1/1)
Fiero Vice AUG 09, 04:31 AM
I would like to keep my A/C -R12.

So, what do I need to get it refilled? Does it have to be AC Delco Freon type or any aftermarket type should be fine?

And maybe update my R-12 seals if needed.

I'm little lost at what needs to be done and would greatly appreciate any advice.

Thanks
FX AUG 09, 09:07 AM
R12 is not legal to sell anymore in the US. Unless you can bootleg some, you'll have to change it over to R134A, as most of us have done...
RWDPLZ AUG 09, 03:18 PM
Converting to R-134A at this point makes a lot more sense, and is much cheaper. It also makes it possible for any shop to service it, with R-12, you're basically on your own, unless you live somewhere like Phoenix where you can find a shop that will do R-12 service.

If you DO want to keep it R-12, I would at minimum replace the o-rings, the low and high side schrader valves, accumulator, orifice tube, new compressor, and flush the lines off the car. You don't want to do this twice, and try to be recovering the R-12 once you've put it in.

You need EPA Section 609 certification to purchase R-12. There are a number of online courses you can take to certify:

https://www.epa.gov/mvac/se...rtification-programs

Mainstream and ASE are the main ones

https://www.epatest.com/609/

https://www.ase.com/Tests/cfc.aspx

Once you have proof of certification, you can buy from vendors selling R-12. The Fiero capacity is 2.5 lbs. Any brand is fine, you want to buy cans without stop leak and without oil added. You'll also need the accompanying can taps and hose sets. 3 14oz cans would give you the full Fiero capacity. This is the worst time of the year to buy it, but at this time you can get 3 cans for about $150.

[This message has been edited by RWDPLZ (edited 08-09-2019).]

theogre AUG 09, 07:56 PM
R12 and other CFC types are legal but only for AC shops that still supports R12 and related w/ right equipment. Many Car AC shops do not have R12 recover and other equipment now because of several reasons and too few cars still come in.

Fixing leaking R12 or R134a is often more complicated as is converting R12 to R134a.
Replacing o-rings is the least of problems. Many DIY have to replace "rubber" hoses, compressor and more IF the condenser and evaporator are good but often don't fix all problems and have to "recharge" every season or less.

Some old compressors hate R134 and have leaks in the compressor to Black Death.

Often DIY is the only choice. Many AC shops won't touch iffy old cars because takes too much time and break again w/ next weak spot. If they quote you, expect a high dollar repair.
Example: Replacing old R12 hose requires new barrier type to meet EPA and other laws. AC Shop replacing engine bay rubber part will cost you on top everything else.

Even for newer cars, AC problems often cost too much and many owners dump the car. You often can't get at most AC parts w/o taring the dash completely apart or moving/removing major parts on the engine.
And Many think the V6 Fiero is bad just to change spark plugs... I've seen many that are far worse.

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Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave

cmechmann AUG 09, 08:40 PM
I am Imaca certified. An have kept it updated as things changed since around 1989.
Around here there may be 1 in 100 shops that legally work on A/C even attempt to service R12 systems.
And anyone of them, that I have spoke with state it is only for regular customers cars that they know and have been serviced by them.
That also would have been cars that were considered classic. That the customers wanted to keep original.
To say the least very expansive to do so. Refrigerant had to be recovered, system serviced, (leak repairs, compressor service, driers replaced) then recharged. All of the recovery machines also recycled refrigerant. It is very expensive to replace the driers and filters for R12 recycling.
The shop that I am currently at have have had all R12 equipment removed more than 5 years ago.
We recently have started 1234yf service. It is also, at this point very expensive. And we have seen a few compressor failures on cars as new as 2017.
The compressors would develop leaks.

About a year ago had an GMC Acadia come in with a leaking front evaporator. The entire dash, including wiring harness, steering column, air bags had to be removed. About 8 hours. Only to have to tell the customer this year the rear evaporator was leaking. They are highly considering getting rid of the car.

I currently run a 3800 n/a swap in my car. And do not have A/C. I don't intend on it unless I can find an efficient DC compressor to eliminate the need for long lines from the engine compartment.
DC compressors have come a long way in the past few years but not quite there yet.

I would take the others suggestions and convert to 134a. With a later style compressor and barrier hoses. If I'm not mistaken all replacement hoses are barrier.
theogre AUG 09, 10:44 PM

quote
Originally posted by cmechmann: If I'm not mistaken all replacement hoses are barrier.

Should be.

Most vehicle w/ R12 from the factory don't have barrier hoses. Vast majority of cars w/ OE R134a have barrier hose but not all early ones.
Replacement hose, stock hose on a reel and hose assembles, made in last 15+ years are all barrier type to meet EPA etc rules/laws in the US and many other places.

But Some may find NOS or worse Used hose assembles for Fiero etc and often they are not barrier hose and if true would need to replace the hose part for use w/ R134a. Since most of these are very short that may cut off any hose markings, take them to a AC or Hydraulic shop to check/fix even NOS assembles. (Some Hydro hose shops do AC hoses too.)
Example: ACDelco has some Fiero AC Hose parts list until ~ 2005 but could never get an answer if had barrier hose because was Very possible those hoses sat in a warehouse 20 years by then. If you buy expensive ACDelco parts, you don't want spend more to replace the "new" hose.

side note: Many get away w/ R12 to R134 conversions only because R12 mineral oil tries to the seal non barrier hose. If you simply remove the old oil this often still works but many flush by whatever methods and remove most if not all of R12 oil coating in the rubber and then R134a leaks right thru the rubber.
cmechmann AUG 09, 11:45 PM
My main concern on the hoses was NOS.

Then again if memory serves me right, barrier hoses started hitting the auto market in 1992 on stock applications. But the older hoses were in the after market for a while.
It looks like the refrigerant manufactures (Dupont, etc.) are going to try to do what they did before with R12 and push for a drop off of production on 134a.
If there wasn't so many issues with 1234yf, I could bet they would have did already. It greatly helped their profit margin when they did that with early 134a.
The production drop off wasn't supposed to be an issue until 1995, but Dupont decided to drop it in 1993. Then prices rose big time for both R12 and 134a. They claimed it was an environmental decision.
theogre AUG 10, 01:18 AM
The list of reasons Why Honeywell/DuPont R1234yf is made in China goes way beyond price fixing problems but way too political for here.

Good New! (Not...) 8 oz can is only $69.99 at Advance Auto but only a few stores stock it. Gee Wonder Why, Not again. I'm surprise any stores have it. If any fools can buy this, is only a matter of time you find "conversion kits" for "Off Road Use Only" like most car LED "upgrades" and other crap.

DuPont spinoff Chemours is now calling most everything Freon like Freon 134a and gone is Suva and most other names. R1234yf is sold under Opteon YF by Chemours and as Solstice YF by Honeywell
Chemours? WTF is that crap? Crap is right... a lame short version of Chemicals and E. I. du Pont de Nemours.
DuPont car paint like Imron? Another Spinoff as Axalta Coating Systems. Nobody seems to know Where TF that came from. Is likely same crew that comes up w/ most DuPont names. I think they have a fake language like Klingon and Fifth Element.
And most miss the fact DuPont itself is mostly Gone. Dow owns it since 2017. https://en.wikipedia.org/wi..._(1802%E2%80%932017)
Dennis LaGrua AUG 10, 04:26 AM
I have several R-134a conversions working for over 10 years with the original hoses and they are still working fine. You do not need to change hoses when converting to R-134a. This is false information. It was found that the old R-12 hoses are sealed with the new Ester A/C oil so in essence there is an oil barrier there. If new hoses were required then why are my 10+ yr old conversions with the R-12 hoses leak free and still functioning well?
If anyone is to do an R-134a conversion, you must do it now. Next year R-134a will be banned and R-1234 will be the standard refrigerant. The intention is to take refrigerant work and move it to the car dealers so you will "pay through the nose".

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cmechmann AUG 10, 11:34 AM
Why doesn't any of it surprise me.
Union Carbide changed hands so much, no one knows what they are anymore. Or if they really changed hands or just changed names.
Kind of like the Monsanto, Bayer exchanges.