R-134a being replaced by R-1234 by 2020, (Page 1/5)
Dennis LaGrua AUG 05, 01:22 PM
Don't see too much discussion here about R-134a going away but many of us have converted from R-12 to R-134a. By 2020 R-134a will be gone and will be replaced by R-1234 that is a flammable gas. Not sure how a conversion to R-1234 will work but if it uses the same lubricant changing over might be easy. Anyone out there have any info on R-1234 conversions?

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

theogre AUG 05, 02:07 PM
1. USEPA Snap program lists a lot of R# as "Approved" but USDOT only allows R12 R134 and R1234yf for all vehicles.
2. USDOT Does Not allow Any vehicles w/ R12 or R134 to be converted to R1234yf because it's flammable.

Only New Cars that have R1234yf from the factory will have this.
Worse, DuPont and Honeywell are the only source and factory for this scam is in China with high cost to GM etc.

R134 will be available for years because R134 vehicles are still being sold but likely not for DIY's and other unlicensed users.
Is already a "Green push" to ban R134 to all retail outlets like they did in ~ 1987 w/ R12.

R1234yf might never get sold at retail because many vendors will try to make "conversion kits" etc for use by idiots w/o a clue.
This is a big reason why many want to ban R134 now at retail because Idiots think adding R134 every season or every month or faster is normal.

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Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave

Dennis LaGrua AUG 05, 07:12 PM

quote
Originally posted by theogre:

1. USEPA Snap program lists a lot of R# as "Approved" but USDOT only allows R12 R134 and R1234yf for all vehicles.
2. USDOT Does Not allow Any vehicles w/ R12 or R134 to be converted to R1234yf because it's flammable.

Only New Cars that have R1234yf from the factory will have this.
Worse, DuPont and Honeywell are the only source and factory for this scam is in China with high cost to GM etc.

R134 will be available for years because R134 vehicles are still being sold but likely not for DIY's and other unlicensed users.
Is already a "Green push" to ban R134 to all retail outlets like they did in ~ 1987 w/ R12.

R1234yf might never get sold at retail because many vendors will try to make "conversion kits" etc for use by idiots w/o a clue.
This is a big reason why many want to ban R134 now at retail because Idiots think adding R134 every season or every month or faster is normal.




From what I have read R-134a will no longer be sold in 2020. I guess that we had better stock up now. R-1234 might be basically the same stuff as Envirosafe which is a petroleum based gas similar to Butane or maybe it is butane. With an explosive R-1234 system in cars , I would not want to be involved in a front end crash and can you imagine what the result would be with a Lithium Ion electric vehicle. That is a potential bomb on wheels. Sure the environment would be safe but you won't be. Typical government ignorance creates these things.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

USMUCL AUG 05, 08:00 PM
Mine is still rocking R12 and blowing cold. Maybe I can completely bypass the R134
bonaduce AUG 06, 08:18 AM
Make sure you have a large wallet for the r-1234yf. I predict that once the vehicle is out of warranty, people will not have their ac's fixed unless the price drops drastically. Last GM vehicle through the shop was $400.00, just for the refrigerant, and that was GM's cost for warranty.

dan
Darrelk AUG 06, 08:42 AM
Well, looks like it's time to stock up on 134.........
Darth Fiero AUG 06, 09:40 PM
I've heard the price of R1234yf is $70 per pound.

I've also heard that when Chrysler first tried using R1234yf in some of their vehicles they had issues, and instead put R134a in and it worked fine (in a system designed for R1234yf).

Systems designed for R1234yf require different fittings and different equipment to handle that refrigerant, so you can forget about trying to convert your R134a equipment to service R1234yf vehicles.

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More is more. Less is not enough.

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

theogre AUG 07, 04:19 AM

quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
From what I have read R-134a will no longer be sold in 2020. I guess that we had better stock up now. R-1234 might be basically the same stuff as Envirosafe which is a petroleum based gas similar to Butane or maybe it is butane. With an explosive R-1234 system in cars , I would not want to be involved in a front end crash and can you imagine what the result would be with a Lithium Ion electric vehicle. That is a potential bomb on wheels. Sure the environment would be safe but you won't be. Typical government ignorance creates these things.

Note that most newer cars use significantly less R134 and R1234yf then many cars just ~ 10 years old because of several reasons. Partly because a lot of them have Micro-channel condenser and often evaporator too. If you think Fiero AC flushing is often bad, forget about flushing new cars.
It helps here because you have less R1234yf to burn. You're more likely to have gas oil or electrical fires in a wreck. Motor and trans oil will burn surprisingly easy when hits hot exhaust etc. Electrical fires are very easy too and that's ignoring E'car w/ lithium batteries. Shorted 12v Lead batteries can dump 300+ amps and why your car have Fuse Links etc but not all circuits have protection like the Starter. Many motors and other E'parts burn and never blown a fuse let alone a fuse link, max fuse, etc. Like AC/Heat blower resistor burning whole cars before fuses fry. Is why most resistors have screens and thermal fuse(s) in them now.

I haven't seen a reliable store saying R134 will be banned for retail or when. The Greenies have wanted it banned for 10+ years but EPA hasn't sets a date I've seen. (USDOT/NHTSA doesn't ban anything for retail sale and why you see all kinds of crap HL etc.)


quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
Systems designed for R1234yf require different fittings and different equipment to handle that refrigerant, so you can forget about trying to convert your R134a equipment to service R1234yf vehicles.

Correct. R1234yf have different port fitting for both high and low sides so R134 couplers won't fit on them.

"Legal" AC shops are required to have complete sets of equipment for R12 R134 and R1234yf so the R types won't mix w/ each other. Means most everything that "touches" refrigerant like gauges, recover systems and waste tanks.
1. Big headaches and Costs to legally dispose of mix/contaminated waste refrigerant.
2. Is why Many shops Don't work on R12 because Don't have R12 tools. Too much Time Money Space and Records to keep to meet EPA and/or State rules in many places for the few people that might come in. Same w/ R1234yf for now... Most independent shops still can't justify cost to add R1234yf tools etc.
3. Many Vehicle AC Shops have Sniffers to look for contaminated/illegal refrigerate in the system and stop work when they see it because of #1. Even if they don't do a extra test, Many Recovery systems have sniffers built in to shutdown the "box" to protect it from whatever crap in the car. Or shop might work but your going to pay more.

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 08-07-2019).]

bonaduce AUG 09, 09:58 AM

quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

I've heard the price of R1234yf is $70 per pound.

I've also heard that when Chrysler first tried using R1234yf in some of their vehicles they had issues, and instead put R134a in and it worked fine (in a system designed for R1234yf).

Systems designed for R1234yf require different fittings and different equipment to handle that refrigerant, so you can forget about trying to convert your R134a equipment to service R1234yf vehicles.



GM gets $7.40/gram at list price, that equals out to roughly $214/oz. Sure aftermarket with be slightly cheaper. A 10 lb canister costs the shop depending day I need it and which vendor has it, between 550-650.

dan

[This message has been edited by bonaduce (edited 08-09-2019).]

Dennis LaGrua AUG 13, 03:33 PM

quote
Originally posted by bonaduce:


GM gets $7.40/gram at list price, that equals out to roughly $214/oz. Sure aftermarket with be slightly cheaper. A 10 lb canister costs the shop depending day I need it and which vendor has it, between 550-650.

dan



What, that's highway robbery. They are ripping us off. I just found it online at $900 for a 10 lb cannister. That $90 a pound. I can buy 30 lbs of R-134a for $125, about $4 a pound. Meanwhile I'll stock up on R-134a. I advise hoarding the stuff now.


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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 08-13-2019).]